The Ford Barn

Mitch//pa · 01-01-2016, 09:19 PM

1. What about heating the crank gear and causing damage to the front main Babbitt?

2. There is a reason why AER does not use metallic cam timing gears on their rebuilds ...Does anyone know why?

George Miller · 01-01-2016, 09:34 PM

Lots of cars and trucks used alum gears. But the clearnce was correct so not metal in the oil, also used a new cam gear not a ruff one.

FrankWest · 01-01-2016, 09:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mitch//pa

What about heating the crank gear and causing damage to the front main Babbitt?

Trivia:::There is a reason why AER does not use metal cam gears on their rebuilds ...Does anyone know?

what is AER?

Mitch//pa · 01-01-2016, 09:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FrankWest

what is AER?

One of the main rebuilders out there..
http://antiqueenginerebuilding.com/index.html

H. L. Chauvin · 01-01-2016, 10:38 PM

FWIW: When purchasing metal timing gears, maybe one way to look at it .... e.g. if one later performs a "Search" on metal timing gears.

Manufacturing gears and precisely meshing metal gear teeth on two (2) separate gears is about as delicate as meshing a set of top false teeth to a set of bottom false teeth.

Nothing worse than not being able to thoroughly chew peanuts with your grandkids at a Circus.

If one wants a set of bottom false teeth and a set of top false teeth; appears for a good fit, it would always be best to go to the same dentist to precisely make both top and bottom to insure proper meshing ....... and ...... if one loses one's set of top false teeth, and wants to replace them, don't go to the dentist without one's bottom false teeth ........ you won't be able to even chew watermelons.

If one wants to do it right the first time and avoid guessing what gears will work with what gears, Mr. Dan McEachern makes the non-ferrous gears, (bronze & aluminum) ......... "and" ........... also the metal crank gear with precise measurements to insure proper meshing of teeth ...... and contrary to the many Model A messages years ago when Model A matching metal gears were not always guaranteed, his are not noisy.

Just hope this helps someone somewhat in the future to do it once.

BILL WILLIAMSON · 01-01-2016, 11:07 PM

Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)

IF Vermin ever has a "serious" problem,--- I WON'T put it on here. I'll jist figger it out by my LONESOME!!! (Along with my Dogs' help!) EVERYONE seems to have TOO many varying OPINIONS!
Wish he had THUMBS, I'd teach him to WRENCH stuff!
Bill W.

Pete · 01-01-2016, 11:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FrankWest

What I find amazing is that when I had to replace my Time Gear, I asked a million questions on this board about timing gear materials from the original, to super hard original type material to aluminum and bronze too. No mention was ever made by manufacturers and by anyone this board about the danger of using anything other than the original :fiber" material because it could introduce dangerous particles that could wear away engine bearings. The only caution that was made was that it could be noisy.
I never would have chosen a Bronze time gear if I had know of the Dangers!

For your information, the crap that comes off of a fiber cam gear can destroy an engine just as fast as a metal one.
As far as the "dangers" of metal gears, they are no more "dangerous" than slicing an onion. You can cut your finger off slicing an onion if you are uninformed.
Gears when set properly will last as long as the engine or longer with NO shedding of material.
People that babble on about stuff like that need to go back to school.
As far as helping you any more, forget it.
Vince was right.

Mike V. Florida · 01-01-2016, 11:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FrankWest

you are saying that with a decent crank gear the time gear should not be grinding particles off?

Yes

H. L. Chauvin · 01-02-2016, 12:23 AM

The archives of the other Model A Forum years ago were "loaded" with warnings about do "not" buy "noisy" metal timing gears ...... that is ...... until one guy posted that he had just bought "quiet" metal gears from Mr. McEachern.

He was next brutally & verbally attacked by the then Forum Cardinals and writers of strict Model A Canon Law ........ but ........... rather than face Excommunication and burned at the stake ............. this young man stood his ground and was later found not to be a Heretic.

There was no doubt considerable Model A Forum background moaning and also ........... gnashing of teeth ........... but ....... none with his new aluminum Model A matching timing gear quiet teeth.

PC/SR · 01-02-2016, 12:45 AM

Check the gear lash. Should be .003-.004. May be too late for this set, but do it when you reassemble it.

99ZoomR · 01-02-2016, 12:56 AM

Thanks to everyone for your help and advice. I do wish I'd replaced the crank gear when I'd replaced the timing gear. I think that was a mistake on my part and definitely not the fault of the material that was used for the timing gear or the quality of the part. I was surprised that the crank gear had so much surface rust on it, but I guess I was fooling myself by thinking it wouldn't cause problems. I'm usually pretty "fussy" about replacing old and worn parts, but in this case I'm afraid I took the "Mickey Mouse" approach...

Thanks again and have a great New Year!

Len

H. L. Chauvin · 01-02-2016, 01:31 AM

Hi Len,

You are a wonderful and great teacher. Thanks.

We "all" still makes mistakes ..... and some have too much pride to share such "real" learning experiences.

It appears much easier to remember what "not" to do ..... rather than what "to" do ........ for example ..... in formal training on how to use C-4, dynamite, DET Chord, and nitroglycerin blasting caps, especially during a thunderstorm ..... what "not" to do is most important. LOL

colin1928 · 01-02-2016, 02:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PC/SR

Check the gear lash. Should be .003-.004. May be too late for this set, but do it when you reassemble it.

X2 incorrect lash will also cause the same damage as seen the photo

Tom Wesenberg · 01-02-2016, 02:54 AM

When engine set unused for long periods of time (years), it seems the crankshaft timing gear and distributor shaft are the first parts to rust. Many times the rest of the engine will stay rust free.

FrankWest · 01-02-2016, 07:32 AM

One should be said...These 4 bangers are very reliable engines They even run on ONE cylinder! HA HA
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qh2LWwZI1LM

chap52 · 01-02-2016, 08:04 AM

Len'
I appreciate your hindsight and willingness to admit it.
Let you who have never faced a "woulda, coulda, shoulda" moment cast the first lug nut.

RonC · 01-02-2016, 08:34 AM

Frank how old is the engine? To clean it properly would require a complete disassembly and solvent cleaning. Your engine looks like it has some miles on it? I would just replace the timing gear with a good quality fiber gear. I would also pull your oil pan and clean it out good with diesel fuel. Don't try pulling the crank gear. I would run the car and check your gear to see if in fact the crank gear is chewing up your timing gear. If it's chewing the gear then try pulling the crank gear in the car knowing you may end up removing the engine and crankshaft to press it off.

Mitch//pa · 01-02-2016, 08:52 AM

No experts can answer the two part question in post 24? HMMMMMMM

BILL WILLIAMSON · 01-02-2016, 09:03 AM

My experience: Minerva had a Bronze cam gear & a new crank gear, it made "some" noise that gradually went away, in the first 3,000 Miles.
In my years at Volvo, the INLINE 6 Cylinder gears were NOTORIOUS for failing. The Factory sent us Aluminum gears & they were a "little" noisy. A few times, they even sent us some STEEL cam gears, my GOD, they were NOISY, beyond belief! We had to change them back to Aluminum gears, except for one man that liked his, because it sounded like a DIESEL!!
Bill W.

BILL WILLIAMSON · 01-02-2016, 09:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mitch//pa

No experts can answer post 24? HMMMMMMM

"Maybe" because they're SO QUIET, or is this a "TRICK" QUESTION?
dAD

01-01-2016, 09:19 PM	#21
Mitch//pa BANNED Join Date: May 2010 Location: Bucks County, PA Posts: 11,454	Re: Timing gear screw up... 1. What about heating the crank gear and causing damage to the front main Babbitt? 2. There is a reason why AER does not use metallic cam timing gears on their rebuilds ...Does anyone know why? Last edited by Mitch//pa; 01-02-2016 at 09:49 AM.

01-01-2016, 09:34 PM	#22
George Miller Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: NC Posts: 2,975	Re: Timing gear screw up... Lots of cars and trucks used alum gears. But the clearnce was correct so not metal in the oil, also used a new cam gear not a ruff one.

01-01-2016, 10:38 PM	#25
H. L. Chauvin Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Posts: 4,179	Re: Timing gear screw up... FWIW: When purchasing metal timing gears, maybe one way to look at it .... e.g. if one later performs a "Search" on metal timing gears. Manufacturing gears and precisely meshing metal gear teeth on two (2) separate gears is about as delicate as meshing a set of top false teeth to a set of bottom false teeth. Nothing worse than not being able to thoroughly chew peanuts with your grandkids at a Circus. If one wants a set of bottom false teeth and a set of top false teeth; appears for a good fit, it would always be best to go to the same dentist to precisely make both top and bottom to insure proper meshing ....... and ...... if one loses one's set of top false teeth, and wants to replace them, don't go to the dentist without one's bottom false teeth ........ you won't be able to even chew watermelons. If one wants to do it right the first time and avoid guessing what gears will work with what gears, Mr. Dan McEachern makes the non-ferrous gears, (bronze & aluminum) ......... "and" ........... also the metal crank gear with precise measurements to insure proper meshing of teeth ...... and contrary to the many Model A messages years ago when Model A matching metal gears were not always guaranteed, his are not noisy. Just hope this helps someone somewhat in the future to do it once. Last edited by H. L. Chauvin; 01-01-2016 at 10:41 PM. Reason: typo

01-01-2016, 11:07 PM	#26
BILL WILLIAMSON Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2010 Location: FRESNO, CA Posts: 12,560	Re: Timing gear screw up... Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements) IF Vermin ever has a "serious" problem,--- I WON'T put it on here. I'll jist figger it out by my LONESOME!!! (Along with my Dogs' help!) EVERYONE seems to have TOO many varying OPINIONS! Wish he had THUMBS, I'd teach him to WRENCH stuff! Bill W. __________________ "THE ASSISTANT GURU OF STUFF"

01-02-2016, 12:23 AM	#29
H. L. Chauvin Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Posts: 4,179	Re: Timing gear screw up... The archives of the other Model A Forum years ago were "loaded" with warnings about do "not" buy "noisy" metal timing gears ...... that is ...... until one guy posted that he had just bought "quiet" metal gears from Mr. McEachern. He was next brutally & verbally attacked by the then Forum Cardinals and writers of strict Model A Canon Law ........ but ........... rather than face Excommunication and burned at the stake ............. this young man stood his ground and was later found not to be a Heretic. There was no doubt considerable Model A Forum background moaning and also ........... gnashing of teeth ........... but ....... none with his new aluminum Model A matching timing gear quiet teeth.

01-02-2016, 12:45 AM	#30
PC/SR Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Santa Rosa, CA Posts: 1,278	Re: Timing gear screw up... Check the gear lash. Should be .003-.004. May be too late for this set, but do it when you reassemble it.

01-02-2016, 12:56 AM	#31
99ZoomR Member Join Date: Sep 2015 Location: Central Illinois Posts: 35	Re: Timing gear screw up... Thanks to everyone for your help and advice. I do wish I'd replaced the crank gear when I'd replaced the timing gear. I think that was a mistake on my part and definitely not the fault of the material that was used for the timing gear or the quality of the part. I was surprised that the crank gear had so much surface rust on it, but I guess I was fooling myself by thinking it wouldn't cause problems. I'm usually pretty "fussy" about replacing old and worn parts, but in this case I'm afraid I took the "Mickey Mouse" approach... Thanks again and have a great New Year! Len

01-02-2016, 01:31 AM	#32
H. L. Chauvin Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Posts: 4,179	Re: Timing gear screw up... Hi Len, You are a wonderful and great teacher. Thanks. We "all" still makes mistakes ..... and some have too much pride to share such "real" learning experiences. It appears much easier to remember what "not" to do ..... rather than what "to" do ........ for example ..... in formal training on how to use C-4, dynamite, DET Chord, and nitroglycerin blasting caps, especially during a thunderstorm ..... what "not" to do is most important. LOL

01-02-2016, 02:54 AM	#34
Tom Wesenberg Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Mpls, MN Posts: 27,582	Re: Timing gear screw up... When engine set unused for long periods of time (years), it seems the crankshaft timing gear and distributor shaft are the first parts to rust. Many times the rest of the engine will stay rust free.

01-02-2016, 07:32 AM	#35
FrankWest Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2013 Posts: 3,005	Re: Timing gear screw up... One should be said...These 4 bangers are very reliable engines They even run on ONE cylinder! HA HA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qh2LWwZI1LM

01-02-2016, 08:04 AM	#36
chap52 Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Location: Marana Arizona Posts: 1,776	Re: Timing gear screw up... Len' I appreciate your hindsight and willingness to admit it. Let you who have never faced a "woulda, coulda, shoulda" moment cast the first lug nut.

01-02-2016, 08:34 AM	#37
RonC Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Rhode Island Posts: 1,868	Re: Timing gear screw up... Frank how old is the engine? To clean it properly would require a complete disassembly and solvent cleaning. Your engine looks like it has some miles on it? I would just replace the timing gear with a good quality fiber gear. I would also pull your oil pan and clean it out good with diesel fuel. Don't try pulling the crank gear. I would run the car and check your gear to see if in fact the crank gear is chewing up your timing gear. If it's chewing the gear then try pulling the crank gear in the car knowing you may end up removing the engine and crankshaft to press it off.

01-02-2016, 08:52 AM	#38
Mitch//pa BANNED Join Date: May 2010 Location: Bucks County, PA Posts: 11,454	Re: Timing gear screw up... No experts can answer the two part question in post 24? HMMMMMMM Last edited by Mitch//pa; 01-02-2016 at 09:46 AM.

01-02-2016, 09:03 AM	#39
BILL WILLIAMSON Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2010 Location: FRESNO, CA Posts: 12,560	Re: Timing gear screw up... My experience: Minerva had a Bronze cam gear & a new crank gear, it made "some" noise that gradually went away, in the first 3,000 Miles. In my years at Volvo, the INLINE 6 Cylinder gears were NOTORIOUS for failing. The Factory sent us Aluminum gears & they were a "little" noisy. A few times, they even sent us some STEEL cam gears, my GOD, they were NOISY, beyond belief! We had to change them back to Aluminum gears, except for one man that liked his, because it sounded like a DIESEL!! Bill W. __________________ "THE ASSISTANT GURU OF STUFF"