Engine temp rises when I get to cruise speed

[jrvariel48]

I've been trying to cool my car down a little for the past couple of months. When it's 50-60 degrees outside it's not a concern, but as we get into summer here in Jersey things really heat up. It seems that after I installed the radiator the problems started. I had a cheap Ebay aluminum P.O.S. it there last summer and I had no problems

Here's what I've done: This is a rebuilt motor with about 2000 miles on it.

Timing is advanced 7* at idle with a max advance of 18* in at 2200 rpm because of a supercharger. Running 102 octane.

I don't have the lower grille pan installed in the grille and wondered if this could be a problem.
The radiator is getting plenty of airflow.

Hoses are new, no restrictions, no collapsed hoses.

I replaced the sending unit and checked my gauge with a new gauge and it was dead on.

I installed a temp gauge directly in the pass. head and it reads very close to what the electric gauge says.

7Lb. radiator cap with overflow tank.

New Brassworks radiator (Not happy at all. This will be another post).

Changed fan from pusher to puller with shroud.

Change t-stats from 180* to 160*.

Started with 50/50 Propylene glycol and tap water.

Tried 40% Ethylene glycol/60% distilled water.

As of this morning I'm at 20% Propylene glycol and 80% tap just to see what happened.

Outside temperature is 72*
Idled in driveway with fan on for 20 minutes at 180* all good so far.
Get on the road and I watch the temp creep up, which is what I expected. Got onto the highway doing 60 MPH and temp goes to about 205. I'm ok with that but not real happy. Cruising rpm varies from 2500 to 3000 rpm in 4th or 5th gear with air/fuel ratio from 11.3 at WOT to 14.8 cruising on a flat road.
I pull off the exit to the back roads and the temp drops.
Now I'm cruising in 3rd or 4th gear going 30-40 MPH same rpm 2500-3000 and I'm at about 190*
As soon as I go past 45 MPH it starts to heat up again.
I understand motors heat up when driving, but I didn't think 20*-30* was normal.

The next thing I will try is straight reverse osmosis water and No-Rosion. (this is what No-Rosion recommends). I understand the boiling point won't be as high as with anti freeze, but with the 7 pound cap I'd be at about 235*. I could also change the cap to a 13 lb. and get the boiling point to around 250*.
This would only be for the summer.
The car sits in a heated garage and gets driven every weekend as long as there's no snow or salt on the roads

I didn't try removing the stats, but I will if that's what everyone agrees on.

Thanks,
Joe

[19Fordy]

Hate to say it but reinstall the aluminum radiator and go from there as that seems to be when your problems began. Also, try removing the thermostats to increase water flow.

Also, do a Fordbarn SEARCH on OVERHEATING for more ideas. Lots of info. appears.

[cadillac512]

Quote: "It seems that after I installed the radiator the problems started. I had a cheap Ebay aluminum P.O.S. it there last summer and I had no problems"


There's your answer. If you overheat at speed but not going slower,airflow is not the issue, it's radiator cooling capacity. Whatever radiator is in the car now is not exchanging heat efficiently and no amount of work-arounds will cure it.

[tubman]

The old adage is : "Overheating at idle and low speed is an air flow problem; overheating at highway speeds is a coolant flow problem".

Looks like the last couple of posters have nailed your problem.

[jrvariel48]

Wow! I didn’t expect that. I know it’s a 3 core radiator. Could that be the problem? Should it have been a 4 core or is a tubing size problem?
Thanks everyone

[Ronnieroadster]

Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)

Many years ago {the last century}I decided to replace a good working radiator in my roadster to what I expected would be a newer better core this was prior to aluminum radiators when I put the 671 blower on my flathead. Since I expected more heat from the blower combination.

For many months I chased heating issues as your experiencing. I tried modifying the water pumps removing every other fin slowing things down did not work went back to non modified pumps next I tried 160 thermosets and no thermostats and also tried washers with a 5/8 hole in the center doing all of that did not help. During all of this I continued to use the 50/50 coolant mixture emptying it and putting it back in.

One day I decided the heck with that I just put straight water and dam that day was the first time I experienced any improvement the engine now ran 10 degrees cooler that day I discovered straight water dissipates heat better than anything else! While not a solution to the problem at that point it proved one thing water is much better for what we are doing. Other than straight water nothing I did solved the problem.

This finally led me to that radiator could it be the issue? Prior to inferred temp guns the way I determined it was the radiator I put a temp sender at the water pump the 8BA passenger side pump has the fitting hole for the heater hose a perfect location for the sender now I could see what was happening. The water temp gauge at the head was reading 180 leaving the engine the test temp gauge at the pump was reading 180 entering the engine that radiator was the problem.

The solution I had a radiator built by Custom Auto Radiator CAR located in New Jersey. Now my 671 blown flathead ran nice and cool on the open road at highway speeds and also around town.

That radiator is now in my wife's flathead powered Deuce coupe with Ital blower, C-4 automatic 3/516 bore 4 1/8 stroke crankshaft in 95 degree temps on the highway 180 is as hot as it gets and round town 160 all day long. CAR would be my choice for a radiator that works. Also CAR placed the lower radiator outlets as far out as possible so there was no interference with the belts on a flathead blower combination.
Ronnieroadster

[B-O-B]

jrvariel48 checkout RMI-25. I use it in all my vehicles.

[petehoovie]

Originally Posted by B-O-B

jrvariel48 checkout RMI-25. I use it in all my vehicles.

RMI-25 Website > https://www.rmi25.com/


RMI-25 cleans your engine cooling system’s metal surfaces, then protects against cavitation erosion, electrolysis, pitting and further corrosion. RMI-25 promotes cooler operating and higher efficiency — and it does it while you drive, with no labor costs.

[cadillac512]

Originally Posted by jrvariel48

Wow! I didn’t expect that. I know it’s a 3 core radiator. Could that be the problem? Should it have been a 4 core or is a tubing size problem?
Thanks everyone

Not necessarily a core count or tubing size problem, though both of those are important. Fin count and proper fin to tube contact in the radiator construction is of great importance to heat transfer from the coolant to the air passing through. Extra tubes can't help if the fins can't shed the heat due to lack of proper contact. Of course tubes accidentally plugged during the construction of the unit can play havoc as well. A GOOD shop can pull the tanks and tell you what's wrong...that's the best bet other than replacement. As Ronnie said, water is the best at removing the heat, but neither it nor any additive can fix a malfunctioning radiator.

[Bored&Stroked]

One thing to ponder is the cruise speed AFR reading. I'm not sure what carb you are running, but if it was mine, I'd richen up the primaries and see if that changes the AFR and associated temperature. I'd probably shoot for 13 to 13.5 as a cruise number (with a blower) and see what happens.

If you see that the engine runs a lot cooler, then you'll know you have more exploration as to the best AFR that provides economy as well as enough richness to cool the engine. It is a cheap and easy test!

[derek costello]

If my flathead(stock 1952) overheats with no thermostats, alum rad, electric fan,
13lb cap, recovery tank. So I am going to try the new Bob Drake super water pumps in hopes of pushing more water (when the levels get low).
Any thoughts???

[5851a]

I'm not sure of your problem answer, but most overheating involves some forms of aluminum radiator's and electric fans or plugged block and cooling system.

[Tinker]

Well... you can run any type of coolant you like. But ultimately it really comes down to volume of fluid. 5 gallons of circulating fluid will keep things cooler then 2 gallons.


If I hauled a 55 gallon barrel of water next to my car piped to my engine, I'd guess it'd take a long time to heat up.


I don't know your radiator situation aluminum or steel, or what is correct...

[Tinker]

As a hotrodder I would say. Chuck the interior and spare tire and put in a large rad.

[Graeme / New Zealand]

Originally Posted by B-O-B

jrvariel48 checkout RMI-25. I use it in all my vehicles.

Brilliant stuff. I ran a bottle in with my regular water coolant mix for 3 years, then did a full service recently including changing the coolant. I was amazed how clean it was when I opened the radiator tap. This stuff is hard to get in NZ but I hunted another 250ml botte down and put in in with the refill. It works like it says. The stuff is is biodergadible too.

GB

[Tinker]

Being this is a rebuilt motor. Why would it clogged? I'm sure casting sand was addressed. The only change is the radiator?


I don't know......


I'd suspect the very nice brassworks rad doesn't flow to all the mods you have made. Not really designed for a blower and high flow pumps maybe. I think of them as great solid originals.


One size doesn't fit all. Certainly when you are pushing the limits of a system.


.

[jrvariel48]

Originally Posted by Ronnieroadster

Many years ago {the last century}I decided to replace a good working radiator in my roadster to what I expected would be a newer better core this was prior to aluminum radiators when I put the 671 blower on my flathead. Since I expected more heat from the blower combination.

For many months I chased heating issues as your experiencing. I tried modifying the water pumps removing every other fin slowing things down did not work went back to non modified pumps next I tried 160 thermosets and no thermostats and also tried washers with a 5/8 hole in the center doing all of that did not help. During all of this I continued to use the 50/50 coolant mixture emptying it and putting it back in.

One day I decided the heck with that I just put straight water and dam that day was the first time I experienced any improvement the engine now ran 10 degrees cooler that day I discovered straight water dissipates heat better than anything else! While not a solution to the problem at that point it proved one thing water is much better for what we are doing. Other than straight water nothing I did solved the problem.

This finally led me to that radiator could it be the issue? Prior to inferred temp guns the way I determined it was the radiator I put a temp sender at the water pump the 8BA passenger side pump has the fitting hole for the heater hose a perfect location for the sender now I could see what was happening. The water temp gauge at the head was reading 180 leaving the engine the test temp gauge at the pump was reading 180 entering the engine that radiator was the problem.

The solution I had a radiator built by Custom Auto Radiator CAR located in New Jersey. Now my 671 blown flathead ran nice and cool on the open road at highway speeds and also around town.

That radiator is now in my wife's flathead powered Deuce coupe with Ital blower, C-4 automatic 3/516 bore 4 1/8 stroke crankshaft in 95 degree temps on the highway 180 is as hot as it gets and round town 160 all day long. CAR would be my choice for a radiator that works. Also CAR placed the lower radiator outlets as far out as possible so there was no interference with the belts on a flathead blower combination.
Ronnieroadster

I guess the one thing I'm really having trouble understanding is this:

The engine doesn't know MPH, only RPM and load basically.
So if I'm going 30 MPH at 3000 RPM or 60 MPH at 3000 RPM I don't see the difference. I would think that the air movement at 60 MPH would have a better cooling effect than at 30MPH. My A/F numbers are the same when cruising at those speeds. The only time times that changes if when I get on it or take my foot off the pedal. Thanks Ronnie

[jrvariel48]

Originally Posted by Bored&Stroked

One thing to ponder is the cruise speed AFR reading. I'm not sure what carb you are running, but if it was mine, I'd richen up the primaries and see if that changes the AFR and associated temperature. I'd probably shoot for 13 to 13.5 as a cruise number (with a blower) and see what happens.

If you see that the engine runs a lot cooler, then you'll know you have more exploration as to the best AFR that provides economy as well as enough richness to cool the engine. It is a cheap and easy test!

I'm running a Holly 4160. I can certainly try that.

[jrvariel48]

Originally Posted by 5851a

I'm not sure of your problem answer, but most overheating involves some forms of aluminum radiator's and electric fans or plugged block and cooling system.

I believe the Brassworks radiator is copper core

[jrvariel48]

Originally Posted by B-O-B

jrvariel48 checkout RMI-25. I use it in all my vehicles.

Did it lower your engine temp at all?

[jrvariel48]

Originally Posted by Tinker

Being this is a rebuilt motor. Why would it clogged? I'm sure casting sand was addressed. The only change is the radiator?


I don't know......


I'd suspect the very nice brassworks rad doesn't flow to all the mods you have made. Not really designed for a blower and high flow pumps maybe. I think of them as great solid originals.


One size doesn't fit all. Certainly when you are pushing the limits of a system.


.

The Brassworks radiator was supposed to be built for my blower motor. I know it's 3 core, but that's about all I know technically. It's not an exact 35 replica, but a "street rod" version

[Tinker]

Well... I guess if you have worked it out with them, there might be some more work needed then.


I'm very grateful to them for making a product that we need. Sounds like they are tailoring something specif to you. It'd be hard for me to poop on a company that makes a great product for most over your needs. But I suppose they have to expand their market base as people have to have all the bells.


Hope it works out. I'm just a regular flathead putter.


With all the mods why wouldn't you just go back to the ebay rad? Not like anyone thinks its original? or need the rad core supports to set up the hood.


My guess you are 12v too. It's a track motor in a daily driver. Have fun!

[tubman]

Originally Posted by jrvariel48

I guess the one thing I'm really having trouble understanding is this:

The engine doesn't know MPH, only RPM and load basically.
So if I'm going 30 MPH at 3000 RPM or 60 MPH at 3000 RPM I don't see the difference. I would think that the air movement at 60 MPH would have a better cooling effect than at 30MPH. My A/F numbers are the same when cruising at those speeds. The only time times that changes if when I get on it or take my foot off the pedal. Thanks Ronnie

Again, overheating at highway speeds is usually indicative of a coolant flow problem.

[rich b]

Is it possible your new shroud is restricting airflow at speed?

I've seen openings in shrouds with rubber flaps that open at higher road speed to permit more airflow than fan opening permits.

Seems to me the engine running 3000 at 60 mph would be working harder than engine running 3000 at 30 mph.

[5851a]

Originally Posted by jrvariel48

I believe the Brassworks radiator is copper core

Sorry, I did go back and re read. I always thought brassworks was top notch. Maybe the lower pan could be your answer.

[jrvariel48]

Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)

Originally Posted by Tinker

Well... I guess if you have worked it out with them, there might be some more work needed then.


I'm very grateful to them for making a product that we need. Sounds like they are tailoring something specif to you. It'd be hard for me to poop on a company that makes a great product for most over your needs. But I suppose they have to expand their market base as people have to have all the bells.


Hope it works out. I'm just a regular flathead putter.


With all the mods why wouldn't you just go back to the ebay rad? Not like anyone thinks its original? or need the rad core supports to set up the hood.


My guess you are 12v too. It's a track motor in a daily driver. Have fun!

They knew from the beginning this was a blower motor, it says it on my invoice
While it is a nice piece of craftsmanship, if it don't work, it's useless. I don't want to point to the function of the radiator, but that's what people are saying.
The ebay aluminum radiator looks like absolute crap in my car and I only put it in because I ordered the Brassworks unit.
Yes it's 12 volt
Thanks! Joe

[jrvariel48]

Originally Posted by tubman

Again, overheating at highway speeds is usually indicative of a coolant flow problem.

Tubman I don't doubt what you're saying for a second, but I need a scientific explanation!!! Lol!

Same rpm ,air/fuel mixture, load on motor is all I'm saying

[jrvariel48]

Originally Posted by rich b

Is it possible your new shroud is restricting airflow at speed?

I've seen openings in shrouds with rubber flaps that open at higher road speed to permit more airflow than fan opening permits.

Seems to me the engine running 3000 at 60 mph would be working harder than engine running 3000 at 30 mph.

The grille is original and I cant see how it could restrict airflow being that it will idle for 20 minutes with just the electric fan.

I don't understand how a motor works harder at 60 mph than 30 mph still the same rpm, but that's just me!
Thanks Joe

[Zeke3]

Originally Posted by jrvariel48

I don't understand how a motor works harder at 60 mph than 30 mph still the same rpm, but that's just me!
Thanks Joe

It takes more work to go 60 mph versus 30 mph. Even though your engine speed may be the same at both speeds, due to different gears, going 60 mph will require more torque.

[Ronnieroadster]

Something to consider the load on the engine at 60 MPH is greater than at 30 MPH even at the same RPM. The vacuum reading at 60 will be less than at 30 showing the engine is now under greater load. You really need to determine if the radiator is actually dropping temp entering the engine from what it was leaving the engine.

Ronnieroadster

[jrvariel48]

Originally Posted by Zeke3

It takes more work to go 60 mph versus 30 mph. Even though your engine speed may be the same at both speeds, due to different gears, going 60 mph will require more torque.

Got it! Thanks for the explanation!

[jrvariel48]

Originally Posted by Ronnieroadster

Something to consider the load on the engine at 60 MPH is greater than at 30 MPH even at the same RPM. The vacuum reading at 60 will be less than at 30 showing the engine is now under greater load. You really need to determine if the radiator is actually dropping temp entering the engine from what it was leaving the engine.

Ronnieroadster

Understood. I have a heater hose coming out of the water pump bung. I could install a fitting with the same temp gauge I have in the head.

https://www.amazon.com/Four-Seasons-...29593193&psc=1

[Ronnieroadster]

Originally Posted by jrvariel48

Understood. I have a heater hose coming out of the water pump bung. I could install a fitting with the same temp gauge I have in the head.

https://www.amazon.com/Four-Seasons-...29593193&psc=1

That will work one temp gauge at the head and one at the water pump now you can see what's going on with the radiator core.

[jrvariel48]

Originally Posted by Ronnieroadster

That will work one temp gauge at the head and one at the water pump now you can see what's going on with the radiator core.

Thanks Ronnie, brilliant idea!
When you ran water, did you use anything special or just tap water? Any additive like No-Rosion?
Thanks
Joe

[drolston]

Originally Posted by jrvariel48

I guess the one thing I'm really having trouble understanding is this:

The engine doesn't know MPH, only RPM and load basically.
So if I'm going 30 MPH at 3000 RPM or 60 MPH at 3000 RPM I don't see the difference. I would think that the air movement at 60 MPH would have a better cooling effect than at 30MPH. My A/F numbers are the same when cruising at those speeds. The only time times that changes if when I get on it or take my foot off the pedal. Thanks Ronnie

Stick your hand out the window at 30 mph and you feel the wind drag. Do that at 60 and the drag is no twice as much, it is four times as much, because wind resistance is a function of the square of velocity. So the horsepower required to push that car through the air goes up rapidly with speed. An with the generation of horsepower comes the generation of heat.



At 60, air flow through the radiator is not the problem, it is the cooling capacity of the radiator. Need more frontal area, more fin area, good contact between fins and tubes, clean radiator interior.


I had the both problems, overheating in traffic and at highway speeds. A cute little aluminum radiator rated for 500 horsepower (a lie) would not do the job, but a good clean stock truck radiator finally solved the overheating issues.

[jrvariel48]

Originally Posted by drolston

Stick your hand out the window at 30 mph and you feel the wind drag. Do that at 60 and the drag is no twice as much, it is four times as much, because wind resistance is a function of the square of velocity. So the horsepower required to push that car through the air goes up rapidly with speed. An with the generation of horsepower comes the generation of heat.



At 60, air flow through the radiator is not the problem, it is the cooling capacity of the radiator. Need more frontal area, more fin area, good contact between fins and tubes, clean radiator interior.


I had the both problems, overheating in traffic and at highway speeds. A cute little aluminum radiator rated for 500 horsepower (a lie) would not do the job, but a good clean stock truck radiator finally solved the overheating issues.

Thank you drolston for an excellent explanation!!

[Ronnieroadster]

Originally Posted by jrvariel48

Thanks Ronnie, brilliant idea!
When you ran water, did you use anything special or just tap water? Any additive like No-Rosion?
Thanks
Joe

I used tap water and added water pump lube when I could find it at the local parts stores.
Ronnieroadster

[jrvariel48]

Originally Posted by Ronnieroadster

I used tap water and added water pump lube when I could find it at the local parts stores.
Ronnieroadster

Thanks Ronnie. I spoke with Lee from Brassworks and he thinks the two temp gauge method you incorporated into your cooling system is a great idea. He said it will tell you if the radiator is cooling the antifreeze or not.

He also asked for pictures for the shroud on my puller because he thinks that could be a potential problem. It may actually be slowing the air down. This is why they use reliefs in their shrouds.
I'll be able to get the supply temp gauge in this weekend if all the parts come in time.
I'll post the results if that happens.
Thanks Joe

[Bored&Stroked]

Something that I'd try is to remove the shroud (as it would only help at idle or slow speed) and see what happens. This would be a pretty simple test and might provide you with some additional data points.

My 32 Cabriolet does not have a shroud - it has a stock (recored) radiator, stock fan in stock location, etc.. The engine has been bored to 3 5/16 and total CI is 284. The block was NOS (so no crud buildup). The engine can sit in traffic and not get hot (even on 90 degree days) and it always cools well going down the road (have been up to 75+ a few times).

I'd check the AFR first, re-jet the carb to get the cruise setting down a bit, then see what you get. Then (regardless of the AFR), I'd pull the shroud off and see what happens at both idle/slow speed and higher speed cruise.

Best of luck!
B&S

[jrvariel48]

Originally Posted by Bored&Stroked

Something that I'd try is to remove the shroud (as it would only help at idle or slow speed) and see what happens. This would be a pretty simple test and might provide you with some additional data points.

My 32 Cabriolet does not have a shroud - it has a stock (recored) radiator, stock fan in stock location, etc.. The engine has been bored to 3 5/16 and total CI is 284. The block was NOS (so no crud buildup). The engine can sit in traffic and not get hot (even on 90 degree days) and it always cools well going down the road (have been up to 75+ a few times).

I'd check the AFR first, re-jet the carb to get the cruise setting down a bit, then see what you get. Then (regardless of the AFR), I'd pull the shroud off and see what happens at both idle/slow speed and higher speed cruise.

Best of luck!
B&S

B&S my shroud and fan are one unit so I won't be able to remove the shroud only. I don't have much of a problem at idle or slow speeds just at cruise. I reinstalled the lower grille pan today. I'm not expecting much from that, but I'd like to try it out so I can log the data as I go. The next step is to add the temp gauge in the water pump as Ronnieroadster recommended and see what I have there. Then I'll try bumping up the main jets from #69 to 70 and see what does.
As always, thanks for your input
Joe

[tubman]

I'll say it out loud. The "cheap Ebay aluminum P.O.S." radiator cooled your engine, but the fancy expensive Brassworks unit did not. Why are you going to the ends of the earth trying to make the Brassworks unit work? After reading all of this, it's obvious that the Brassworks unit is inferior. Live with it it.

[Bored&Stroked]

Another option is to temporarily remove the fax and shroud (if possible). Then don't spend any time idling, but take it out on the highway and see what it does at cruise speed. You don't need a fan on the highway - so this will answer the question as to whether or not that assembly is constricting flow through the radiator at highway speeds.

Best of luck. On the jets, go 2 numbers up . . . surely won't hurt anything!

[Tinker]

I'm sure you have addressed the timing as it was running cool with the previous radiator.

Do you have more pictures of the car as a whole. Sounds like a great one.



Best of luck! Looking for the, "Ah I got it post!"


Man I love this shiz... if you are a motorhead and never been to a nhra event. Seriously.. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=03Ybyq6osNY


.

[rich b]

Originally Posted by jrvariel48

The grille is original and I cant see how it could restrict airflow being that it will idle for 20 minutes with just the electric fan.

I don't understand how a motor works harder at 60 mph than 30 mph still the same rpm, but that's just me!
Thanks Joe

I wasn't talking about the grille; was referring to the fan and shroud restricting airflow at road speed when the mill is working harder and generating more heat.

B&S's idea to pull the fan and shroud and hit the road sounds like a good test.

I don't understand one of those two tube aluminum radiators working better than the same size 3 core brass radiator.

Be interesting to see how this all shakes out.

[jrvariel48]

Originally Posted by tubman

I'll say it out loud. The "cheap Ebay aluminum P.O.S." radiator cooled your engine, but the fancy expensive Brassworks unit did not. Why are you going to the ends of the earth trying to make the Brassworks unit work? After reading all of this, it's obvious that the Brassworks unit is inferior. Live with it it.

I hear ya Tubman, but there's a few more things to try out. First off I have to completely exhaust ALL options to be 100% sure.
Secondly, it's not costing me anything to do that.
Third, I need to prove to Brassworks that it is their radiator that's at fault so I could possibly get some no cost repair work or credit. (don't know if that's possible)
If that's not an option I just threw $1200 bucks in the garbage or I have to pay someone to fix it.
The ebay radiator was installed out of necessity until the Brassworks unit was built. While it worked, it's not something I want to keep in my car.
The search continues!
Thanks Joe

[jrvariel48]

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Originally Posted by Bored&Stroked

Another option is to temporarily remove the fax and shroud (if possible). Then don't spend any time idling, but take it out on the highway and see what it does at cruise speed. You don't need a fan on the highway - so this will answer the question as to whether or not that assembly is constricting flow through the radiator at highway speeds.

Best of luck. On the jets, go 2 numbers up . . . surely won't hurt anything!

Also a great option! I'm waiting to hear back from Lee at Brassworks to see what he thinks about his radiator doing the proper job or if the shroud is complicating things. I've also did some reading about the shroud and see a lot of them, including factory, units come with rubber covered vents to relieve pressure at hi way speeds, very interesting and also an option.
Two jet sizes is not a problem at all. Thanks B&S

[jrvariel48]

Originally Posted by rich b

I wasn't talking about the grille; was referring to the fan and shroud restricting airflow at road speed when the mill is working harder and generating more heat.

B&S's idea to pull the fan and shroud and hit the road sounds like a good test.

I don't understand one of those two tube aluminum radiators working better than the same size 3 core brass radiator.

Be interesting to see how this all shakes out.

OK gotcha rich. Believe me, I'm scratching my head over here!
Thanks Joe

[jrvariel48]

Originally Posted by Tinker

I'm sure you have addressed the timing as it was running cool with the previous radiator.

Do you have more pictures of the car as a whole. Sounds like a great one.



Best of luck! Looking for the, "Ah I got it post!"


Man I love this shiz... if you are a motorhead and never been to a nhra event. Seriously.. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=03Ybyq6osNY


.

Double checked the timing 7* advanced at idle and 18* total in about 2200 rpm
I'll try to post a picture but I'm not to good with that stuff!
I'm waiting for that post also!!
I've been going to see top fuel NHRA racing for over 30 years!! There really is nothing like it! Standing next to those monsters in the pit when they fire them up is one of the highlights of my life!! I'm a nitro junkie for sure!!
Thanks

[40cpe]

Originally Posted by rich b

I don't understand one of those two tube aluminum radiators working better than the same size 3 core brass radiator.

.

The radiator people explain it this way: Fin contact with the tube is how the heat is taken from the water. Copper /brass radiator tubes are about 5/8" and are oval in shape. Aluminum tubes are 1"-1 1/4" and flat on the sides. There is much more fin contact area on the aluminum radiator.

[jrvariel48]

I didn’t know that! I always thought copper was better
Thanks for the info. Joe

[tubman]

It'll be interesting to see if Brassworks "steps up" if you can prove their radiator to be deficient.

[Bored&Stroked]

I've spoken with Lee at Brassworks and am/was planning to have them make a custom radiator for my 34 coupe (has a big off-topic blown 392 Hemi in it). The engine will make about 800 HP on the street - and HP creates heat!

I'm sure interested in this thread in that cooling is super important and the radiators that Lee supplies are surely on the higher end of the price scale - so they better work! If this turns out poorly, then I will have to go to another custom radiator manufacturer.

[jrvariel48]

Originally Posted by tubman

It'll be interesting to see if Brassworks "steps up" if you can prove their radiator to be deficient.

So would I!!

[jrvariel48]

Originally Posted by Bored&Stroked

I've spoken with Lee at Brassworks and am/was planning to have them make a custom radiator for my 34 coupe (has a big off-topic blown 392 Hemi in it). The engine will make about 800 HP on the street - and HP creates heat!

I'm sure interested in this thread in that cooling is super important and the radiators that Lee supplies are surely on the higher end of the price scale - so they better work! If this turns out poorly, then I will have to go to another custom radiator manufacturer.

B&S I haven't heard back from Lee yet. He's very hard to get a hold of.
That sounds like one hell of a motor!!!

[ford38v8]

Originally Posted by jrvariel48

B&S my shroud and fan are one unit so I won't be able to remove the shroud only. I don't have much of a problem at idle or slow speeds just at cruise. I reinstalled the lower grille pan today. I'm not expecting much from that, but I'd like to try it out so I can log the data as I go. The next step is to add the temp gauge in the water pump as Ronnieroadster recommended and see what I have there. Then I'll try bumping up the main jets from #69 to 70 and see what does.
As always, thanks for your input
Joe

The lower grille pan is an important part to direct air flow. Air comes in the grille, and if the lower pan is missing, air will take the path of least resistance, exiting below the radiator. Your radiator itself offers a large resistance to air flow, and with the shroud, even more. At higher speeds, the different air flow ratio is multiplied. Without further changes, take a test run with the lower pan installed.


On another subject, copper is most definitely more heat conductive than aluminum. (If money were no object, silver would cool more efficiently than would copper). The size, number, and configuration of tubes and fins being the same (which they are not), Brass tanks with copper tubes/brass fins are superior to aluminum in everything but the initial cost of materials/labor, and there's your reason aluminum is used in modern applications.

[jrvariel48]

Originally Posted by ford38v8

The lower grille pan is an important part to direct air flow. Air comes in the grille, and if the lower pan is missing, air will take the path of least resistance, exiting below the radiator. Your radiator itself offers a large resistance to air flow, and with the shroud, even more. At higher speeds, the different air flow ratio is multiplied. Without further changes, take a test run with the lower pan installed.


On another subject, copper is most definitely more heat conductive than aluminum. (If money were no object, silver would cool more efficiently than would copper). The size, number, and configuration of tubes and fins being the same (which they are not), Brass tanks with copper tubes/brass fins are superior to aluminum in everything but the initial cost of materials/labor, and there's your reason aluminum is used in modern applications.

I'm hoping to get it out this weekend if the rain stays away. I'll post the results.
At least I know why I paid so much for the radiator! It is a beautiful piece, but it needs to work too!!
Thanks Joe

[Zeke3]

Originally Posted by Ronnieroadster

That will work one temp gauge at the head and one at the water pump now you can see what's going on with the radiator core.

I recommend using thermocouples rather than temperature gauges because they are more accurate. The thermocouple wires could be inserted under the hose clamp and bent over at 90 degrees to be in the center of the flow stream. Some multimeters have a thermocouple setting to read the temperature directly or you can read the voltage of the two wires and convert to a temperature.

[jrvariel48]

Originally Posted by Zeke3

I recommend using thermocouples rather than temperature gauges because they are more accurate. The thermocouple wires could be inserted under the hose clamp and bent over at 90 degrees to be in the center of the flow stream. Some multimeters have a thermocouple setting to read the temperature directly or you can read the voltage of the two wires and convert to a temperature.

Interesting concept, never heard of that before.

[Ronnieroadster]

Originally Posted by jrvariel48

Interesting concept, never heard of that before.

No reason to reinvent the wheel temp gauges will work perfectly to help determine what's going on.
Ronnieroadster

[jrvariel48]

Originally Posted by Ronnieroadster

No reason to reinvent the wheel temp gauges will work perfectly to help determine what's going on.
Ronnieroadster

I'm installing the second gauge by the water pump today. I also reinstalled the lower grille pan. Right now I still have 1 gallon of Propylene glycol and the rest is tap water. I'll post results asap.
Thanks Ronnie

[hotrodcbx]

I have a similar setup, blown 286" flathead. The first thing I would suggest is put a boost retard system in. If you are running only 18 d total that is not enough for the times you are NOT on boost, which is probably most the time. I also don't see the need
102 octane, I run 92 with no problem. I have 12 d initial, 14d centrifigal for a total of 26d.
The boost retard control can be adjusted for anywhere from 1 - 3 retard per lb. of boost. I run mine at 2 d retard per lb of boost. At 5 lbs of boost this will retard my timing by 10d. for a total of 16d at full throttle.

[The Brassworks]

Originally Posted by tubman

It'll be interesting to see if Brassworks "steps up" if you can prove their radiator to be deficient.

I'll try to "step up" . I talked to Joe V. again today and he is is presently gathering temperature data.

Incidentally, if you post on these forums and do not get a reply from us its because we do regularly not check them. I went on today because a recent visitor in a tour group told me the forum said we had closed. It turned out they confused us with Walker. We are not closed, just busy. Then I stumbled on this posting from Joe V who I have been talking to about his recent engine temperatures.

idle 180
60mph 205
30-40 mph 190
45mph ? but too high for Joe's taste

Background

• Rebuilt his blown '51 8BA flathead motor with a supercharger
• Removed the air pan which routes air through the core.
• Advanced his timing.
• Changed his thermostats from 180 to 160 to open earlier
• Changed his fluids to a higher ratio of water
• Removed the 16” SPAL pusher fan and replaced it with a puller fan and universal shroud

Comments not declarations (argue amongst yourselves)

1. All engines operate in a range of temperatures. People with flatheads tend to like 180 degrees all the time. There are a myriad of temperatures in an engine and a fixed target is hard to hit.
2. A flathead at 3,000rpm on the highway is going to run hotter than a flathead at 2,200rpm on the highway.
3. Superchargers add horsepower and horsepower tends to increase temperatures.
4. Air deflection panels meets the lower tank header and routes air though the radiator. This helps on the highway when air wants to go the path of least resistance.
5. Cool air passing a hot fin puts heat in the air. If the exiting air is trapped the result can be heat soak.

A one size fits all approach to manufacturing rarely fits anything.
I will use another customer's radiator as an example. It was brought to us to use as a pattern when the Chinese POS fell apart. When we built the copper replacement, we pointed out that his fan shroud provided was trapping ~16.489% of the airflow through the core at the perimeter and the 7” motor and aggregate blade area covered ~63% of the hole opening. The vertical plastic support that joined the blades had a 7/8” gap from the core. This customer sent us another identical fan and he elected to have us fabricate a custom shroud to capture the whole core fin area. We also built the fan out and added a ring extension to remedy the issue of trapped air at the blade perimeter. We always vent the bottom for high speeds and we don't use flaps because they look terrible. We generally use SPAL because they provide hi CFM, are extremely reliable and they're an honest company. In this case we used what the customer wanted.

pictures are provided to illustrate.

[jrvariel48]

Installed the gauge started the car. Temp rose to 180* in the driveway. Air temp was 86*. I went for a ride and it went up to 205* while on back roads. I got onto the hi-way and the temp stayed at 205*. I put the heater on high and the temp was still 205*
I pulled over for a quick temp reading:

With the temp gun I read 194* at top tank and 187* at bottom tank. 7* difference

Temp gauge in head read 200* and 185* at the water pump. 15* difference

I don't know if that's enough of a change, it doesn't seem like it to me

[jrvariel48]

Originally Posted by hotrodcbx

I have a similar setup, blown 286" flathead. The first thing I would suggest is put a boost retard system in. If you are running only 18 d total that is not enough for the times you are NOT on boost, which is probably most the time. I also don't see the need
102 octane, I run 92 with no problem. I have 12 d initial, 14d centrifigal for a total of 26d.
The boost retard control can be adjusted for anywhere from 1 - 3 retard per lb. of boost. I run mine at 2 d retard per lb of boost. At 5 lbs of boost this will retard my timing by 10d. for a total of 16d at full throttle.

Are you saying the 18* is causing the high temps?

[KiWinUS]

Originally Posted by jrvariel48

Installed the gauge started the car. Temp rose to 180* in the driveway. Air temp was 86*. I went for a ride and it went up to 205* while on back roads. I got onto the hi-way and the temp stayed at 205*. I put the heater on high and the temp was still 205*
I pulled over for a quick temp reading:

With the temp gun I read 194* at top tank and 187* at bottom tank. 7* difference

Temp gauge in head read 200* and 185* at the water pump. 15* difference

I don't know if that's enough of a change, it doesn't seem like it to me

Joe I agree. Not even close to enough difference. Radiator should pull more temp out.

[jrvariel48]

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Originally Posted by KiWinUS

Joe I agree. Not even close to enough difference. Radiator should pull more temp out.

Hopefully Brassworks will chime in!

[38 coupe]

I agree with all the suggestions to get the most airflow before condemning the radiator. You had acceptable cooling last year. Then you changed two things, the radiator and the fan system. Take the new fan system off and see what happens. It isn't fair to change two things, not like what happens, and blame one of the two changes without checking both.


In my experience fans are a trade off between low speed cooling and high speed cooling. A big fan and shroud can pull a substantial amount of air through the radiator when the car isn't moving. However, that same big fan and shroud are blockages to air flow at higher speed. I have done this exact experiment on both an F-1 and on my 53 sedan. In both changes to big fans resulted in better cooling at idle and higher temps at highway speed.

[Ol' Ron]

A retarded ignition can also cause overheating.
G

[flatjack9]

Originally Posted by jrvariel48

Are you saying the 18* is causing the high temps?

I agree that 18 deg of advance at cruise is not near enough. Should have like 25 or so. The boost retard I would think is essential.

[jrvariel48]

Originally Posted by 38 coupe

I agree with all the suggestions to get the most airflow before condemning the radiator. You had acceptable cooling last year. Then you changed two things, the radiator and the fan system. Take the new fan system off and see what happens. It isn't fair to change two things, not like what happens, and blame one of the two changes without checking both.


In my experience fans are a trade off between low speed cooling and high speed cooling. A big fan and shroud can pull a substantial amount of air through the radiator when the car isn't moving. However, that same big fan and shroud are blockages to air flow at higher speed. I have done this exact experiment on both an F-1 and on my 53 sedan. In both changes to big fans resulted in better cooling at idle and higher temps at highway speed.

I totally agree with what you're saying and a fan swap is next in line. I did however have the same problem when I had a pusher fan on the front.
Thanks Joe

[jrvariel48]

Ron & Flatjack, I have no problem installing a BTM. I wish I'd known about this sooner. I tried to play it safe with a lower advance timing number so detonation wasn't a problem at boost. I didn't know 18-20* total at cruise wasn't a good thing.

[jrvariel48]

The BTM is $650. This distributor is $550 but Charlieny will have to work his magic as they don't offer a Flathead version. I feel the cost will be worth it because it's more tunable than a btm.

https://progressionignition.com/

I adjusted my total advance to 21* this morning. I'm waiting for the temp to go up so I'm close to where it was yesterday at 86 degrees.

[Bored&Stroked]

Usually having more timing will help cool the engine - though obviously you need to worry about detonation and boost (and fuel quality)

When you're just cruising at a constant speed (say 60 mph), the throttle plates are only partially open and you're not generating any boost as a result - so having 24 - 26 degrees of total advance is just fine. Now, when you step on the throttle a bunch (say passing a car or having fun), then you'll generate boost - and only then do you need to pull some timing out of it. Obviously you'll need to experiment with the timing curve and boost control to achieve the "happy medium" that gives you maximum advance, yet is reactive enough to pull timing out before it detonates.

I'd probably start at 20 degrees of advance, then get the boost control map working . . . then slowly add a bit more timing in to see what the motor likes before detonation sets in. Also, make sure you check your AFRs - as I don't like having a 14.6 AFR on a blown motor . . .

Distributors: I like what I'm reading on their website - as long as they deliver what they say and it is reliable, and Charlie NY makes it fit, could be a great solution.

BTW: Did you notice that they do deliver a mechanical tach-drive version. Depending on what type of tach you have or want to run, this might be an option.

Best of luck!

[Ronnieroadster]

Originally Posted by jrvariel48

Installed the gauge started the car. Temp rose to 180* in the driveway. Air temp was 86*. I went for a ride and it went up to 205* while on back roads. I got onto the hi-way and the temp stayed at 205*. I put the heater on high and the temp was still 205*
I pulled over for a quick temp reading:

With the temp gun I read 194* at top tank and 187* at bottom tank. 7* difference

Temp gauge in head read 200* and 185* at the water pump. 15* difference

I don't know if that's enough of a change, it doesn't seem like it to me

Since the temp went to 180 just sitting in the driveway with the outside temp at 86 that's not good. The temp difference you discovered from top to bottom using the heat gun is showing there's an issue with the radiator design. The air flow across the tubes/fins on the highway should be dropping the temp more than what your seeing. I would expect a reading of 180 on the highway however since its already at that point just idling in the driveway there's no way what your working with is going to get better.

Understanding how the flathead exhaust ports are super heating the water in the block a difference of only 15 degrees is not good.

What I would do if you haven't already is set the initial ignition timing at 12 degrees with a total all in of no more than 25 degrees. Personally I have never used a boost retard I see no reason for it unless the boost your getting is going above 10. If you do not see any reduction in the driveway temp after doing this in my opinion there's not much your going to do with the radiator you have.
Ronnieroadster

[jrvariel48]

Originally Posted by Bored&Stroked

Usually having more timing will help cool the engine - though obviously you need to worry about detonation and boost (and fuel quality)

When you're just cruising at a constant speed (say 60 mph), the throttle plates are only partially open and you're not generating any boost as a result - so having 24 - 26 degrees of total advance is just fine. Now, when you step on the throttle a bunch (say passing a car or having fun), then you'll generate boost - and only then do you need to pull some timing out of it. Obviously you'll need to experiment with the timing curve and boost control to achieve the "happy medium" that gives you maximum advance, yet is reactive enough to pull timing out before it detonates.

I'd probably start at 20 degrees of advance, then get the boost control map working . . . then slowly add a bit more timing in to see what the motor likes before detonation sets in. Also, make sure you check your AFRs - as I don't like having a 14.6 AFR on a blown motor . . .

Distributors: I like what I'm reading on their website - as long as they deliver what they say and it is reliable, and Charlie NY makes it fit, could be a great solution.

BTW: Did you notice that they do deliver a mechanical tach-drive version. Depending on what type of tach you have or want to run, this might be an option.

Best of luck!

Makes sense B&S. I did put a little more advance in yesterday and went up from 18* to 21*. I didn't have enough driving time to see what was really goin on as I'm focused on the temperature problem at the moment.
Mt cruise air fuel is around 14.2, but that's on a flat road and that's not for very long. I'm as low as 11.3 when I step on it. The roads here in Jersey are hilly so you're always on the throttle to compensate. What I'm saying is that 14.2 number does not stay on my meter for more than a few minutes at a time without changing.

I spoke to Charlie and he said he's up for the task. I'll call Progression Ign. today to see what the deal is. I really like the idea of seeing and changing my timing on the fly. It would be great to change timing maps as you're driving without going back to the garage to mess around with springs etc. I haven't read anything bad. I know it's a newer technology, but I'm willing to take a chance. I can always go back to the mechanical distributor.

I did notice the tach drive unit for the corvette. I'm already set with the electronic tach which seems to work well.
Thanks Joe

[jrvariel48]

Originally Posted by Ronnieroadster

Since the temp went to 180 just sitting in the driveway with the outside temp at 86 that's not good. The temp difference you discovered from top to bottom using the heat gun is showing there's an issue with the radiator design. The air flow across the tubes/fins on the highway should be dropping the temp more than what your seeing. I would expect a reading of 180 on the highway however since its already at that point just idling in the driveway there's no way what your working with is going to get better.

Understanding how the flathead exhaust ports are super heating the water in the block a difference of only 15 degrees is not good.

What I would do if you haven't already is set the initial ignition timing at 12 degrees with a total all in of no more than 25 degrees. Personally I have never used a boost retard I see no reason for it unless the boost your getting is going above 10. If you do not see any reduction in the driveway temp after doing this in my opinion there's not much your going to do with the radiator you have.
Ronnieroadster

I agree Ronnie. I'm hoping that Lee from Brassworks is following this post and offers some technical comments, advice and solutions.

My initial timing is at 7*. I'll bump it up to 12* and see what happens. I'm still wonder about the shroud causing a problem at hiway speeds. As you said, if it's 180* sitting in the driveway, it sounds like a radiator problem
Thank you Joe

[Ol' Ron]

Charley's distributor, with an 8deg vacuum canister. Would give 28 degs in cruise, but only 20 at WOT. Should work, unless your static CR is too hi.
Gramps

[Gene1949]

My kid and I had pretty good luck by simply using an adjustable vacuum advance can connected directly to the intake manifold. Improved low speed cooling and much better idle.
At cruise (high vacuum) is functioned as it should giving you 6-10 degrees.
Under boost it dropped out; again depending on your setting of the can.
A 7* temp differential between the upper and lower tank is unacceptable.

[Bored&Stroked]

Over the weekend I did a couple tests: I increased my timing from 24 degrees total to 26. That was a bit too much - caused bucking and some detonation under heavy throttle in 2nd and 3rd. I put the timing back to 24 - all is well.

Temperatures: It was fairly warm over the weekend - about 85 degrees or so. I went to the Goodguys meet (about 20 miles away) - running about 65 - 70 mph on the freeway. My engine stayed at 180 degrees the whole time. When I came to the exit and it sat for a bit - temp rose to about 185.

I have a stock 32 style radiator with a stock fan setup - no shroud. I also have 160 degree thermostats with a couple holes drilled in them for bypass. I run mostly water, with a bit of anti-freeze to reduce rust deposits. I am also running Skip's water pumps with his improved vane design . . . though I think this is MORE of an issue with the older 37 - 48 pumps as the later pumps typically have the improved vanes anyway.

If it was mine, I'd pull the fan and shroud and set the total timing at 20 - 22 degrees (as a first step) and take it on the road. This will pretty much tell you whether the radiator has the capacity to cool the engine or not.

I like the idea of an ignition that is easily setup/tuned (I'm a computer guy) - with multiple tunes, though I don't believe this is your issue.

My guess, the fundamental issue is most likely overall cooling capacity and/or air flow.

[The Brassworks]

Originally Posted by jrvariel48

Hopefully Brassworks will chime in!

My experience with forums is that “chiming in” results in “piling on.” There are already too many declarative statements on here for me. I'll be brief.

When we spoke, I suggested you start by removing the fan shroud and putting the fan back on and measure under various conditions. It looks like you did not do that.

Do this first. If that lowers the temperature, then stop.

If you need more cooling I suggested adding the 1,959 cfm SPAL pusher that we mounted and you removed. The two fans should be mounted offset with the SPAL mounted higher and the cooling component lower. Better core coverage and I trust the stated CFMs of SPAL. You want the highest cfm where the source-sink differential is greatest.

You never mentioned the air panel had been removed. This I learned on the forum postings. Add it back. It's there for a reason, it forces air through the core at higher speeds.

We always recommend the largest core that will fit, pullers over pushers and pullers with fan shrouds provided you have adequate space. You purchased a 3 row core and I now see that a larger 4 row core core would have fit - I do not know why it was not purchased originally. The extra row of tubes and 33% more fins adds $100. The cooling components fan/shroud were added later at cost of $420 and they are blocking air. In fact, a SPAL pusher, SPAL Puller and the larger core could have been ordered, you would saved almost $160 and got far more cfm. It would have all fit in the space you have.

I cannot say unequivocally that the two fans will get your 1951 supercharged flathead to your 180 degree target because (1) the face area of a 1935 ford radiator is 17.5% less that the 1951 Ford OE core and (2) you have added a supercharger.

I can say that (1) the cores we design and make today are a marked improvement over what was available in 1951 (2) an extra row of tubes, more fins, more contact points and higher cfm from both fans with greater core coverage certainly would have helped.

I think you can get closer to your target without the fan shroud, closer still with a offset pusher/puller fan set-up. Do one thing at a time and record what you're observing before changing the next "thing".

[Bored&Stroked]

Hey Brassworks/Lee - couple points:

1) Given that this whole thread references cooling/heat issues on the highway at higher speeds, how would pusher/puller or any fans actually help that situation?

I completely understand their usage when the car is not moving or moving slowly (idling, stop n' go or very slow-speed situations) - but do not see how they'd help with a cruise situation at higher speeds?

Please educate us on this particular part of the conversation.

2) Radiator Front Pan - he put that back on awhile ago.


Thanks for getting on the thread . . . your comments are not "piling on".

B&S

[ford38v8]

Funny about the term piling on. Seems that few posters even bother to read through previous postings before jumping in blindly at the end. The OP posted about installing the lower pan way back at post # 40.


Another thing about suppliers who obviously have considerable knowledge, why don't they make suggestions to their clients on best product for the application? I know many do, but many do not also.

[tubman]

Originally Posted by ford38v8

Funny about the term piling on. Seems that few posters even bother to read through previous postings before jumping in blindly at the end. The OP posted about installing the lower pan way back at post # 40.


Another thing about suppliers who obviously have considerable knowledge, why don't they make suggestions to their clients on best product for the application? I know many do, but many do not also.

This appears to be to be exactly the "piling on" that "The Brassworks" is trying to avoid. I think their repiy was quite reasonable and I appreciate it.

[ford38v8]

Originally Posted by tubman

This appears to be to be exactly the "piling on" that "The Brassworks" is trying to avoid. I think their repiy was quite reasonable and I appreciate it.

I'm not taking the bait.

[The Brassworks]

Originally Posted by ford38v8

Funny about the term piling on. Seems that few posters even bother to read through previous postings before jumping in blindly at the end. The OP posted about installing the lower pan way back at post # 40.

Another thing about suppliers who obviously have considerable knowledge, why don't they make suggestions to their clients on best product for the application? I know many do, but many do not also.

Mea culpa, I did not see post #40.

There are suppliers of products and manufactures who make custom products. Your question/observation is likely to get two different answers for obvious reasons.

[The Brassworks]

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Originally Posted by Bored&Stroked

Hey Brassworks/Lee - couple points:

1) Given that this whole thread references cooling/heat issues on the highway at higher speeds, how would pusher/puller or any fans actually help that situation?

I completely understand their usage when the car is not moving or moving slowly (idling, stop n' go or very slow-speed situations) - but do not see how they'd help with a cruise situation at higher speeds?

Please educate us on this particular part of the conversation.

2) Radiator Front Pan - he put that back on awhile ago.


Thanks for getting on the thread . . . your comments are not "piling on".

B&S

The fan (or fans) are not doing much above 40 mph but if the shroud is blocking air and the hot fins interact with hot air you can heat soak. If it heat soaks and ceases to transfer heat the system cannot recover. I suggest removing it to determine if it a contributing factor.

I missed the post where he put the panel back on. Most radiators are designed to meet the pan which, with the tank being flush to the core, and this prohibits advancing the core forward for a thicker core. We can build thicker radiator cores for notched pans and construct stepped/cantilevered headers to go over the top of un-notched pans.

[Bored&Stroked]

Originally Posted by The Brassworks

The fan (or fans) are not doing much above 40 mph but if the shroud is blocking air and the hot fins interact with hot air you can heat soak. If it heat soaks and ceases to transfer heat the system cannot recover. I suggest removing it to determine if it a contributing factor.

I missed the post where he put the panel back on. Most radiators are designed to meet the pan which, with the tank being flush to the core, and this prohibits advancing the core forward for a thicker core. We can build thicker radiator cores for notched pans and construct stepped/cantilevered headers to go over the top of un-notched pans.

Thanks for the reply - it seems we are on the same page as far as fans being of any help at higher speeds.

Nice to know about some of the 'options' to fit bigger radiator cores into constrained places. I can see how this might really help in some situations. I'll ponder this when I'm ready (finally) to have you guys build a custom radiator for my car.

I think we'd all like to see his problems solved and for him to have a cooler running engine under all conditions - hopefully we'll get there soon.

B&S

[derek costello]

Has anybody used the new bob drake 5 fin water pumps designed to flow much more water
with spectacular results?????

[jrvariel48]

Thanks to all that are responding to this post.

First off Lee I think all of this could've been avoided if you offered me a larger core. I did tell you this was for a supercharged flathead motor. I assume you know that flatheads have cooling issues without a supercharger so I'm a little baffled as to why this was not offered to me. As the expert, you should've told me or at least offered a suggestion that I needed the bigger core.

Second, I'm definitely not going to run two fans to try and solve the problem.

Third, I will try removing the shroud and fan, but I already explained to you that the fan motor is connected to the shroud so the motor can't be taken off and installed. I would have to go back to a pusher fan which we already know did not do the job. If you think the puller will do a better job than the pusher, I can try to fabricate some brackets to get it mounted. Tell me how far the fan blades need to be from the core. I have an older puller fan that may be too big, but I could also see if I could get that to fit.

I don't want to run the car without any fan with the coolant mixture I have in there now which is mostly water. I'm concerned with boil over.

It seems to me that the radiator itself is not doing the job.

I'm open to suggestions as to how we get this corrected.

[Bored&Stroked]

You'll surely need enough 'fan' to keep the engine cool at idle and at slower speeds. What I can't tell you is whether or not a combination of a fan/shroud (potentially restricting air flow at higher speeds) is compatible with achieving maximum air flow at cruise speeds - and that your radiator core has enough capacity to cool the engine with the amount of air going through it (with fan installed).

Once you pull the fan/shroud and run without ANY fan (at cruise speeds), you'll have another data point to apply in the design of a potential solution.

Unless you're experiencing a lot of fan restriction at cruise speeds, my guess is that you'll need a bigger core that can dissipate more heat.

Time will tell . . . best of luck!
B&S

[Ricosan]

Hey Guys,

I’ve been following this thread from the beginning. Here’s my take. Jrvariel48 has put in hours and hours of labor doing his his due diligence in trying to find the cause of the overheating problem other than just a faulty radiator. Instead of continuing to find fault with Jrvariel48, it’s time for Lee at Brassworks to step up with an immediate solution - a new larger radiator. It’s the right thing to do.


Richard

[hotrodcbx]

Originally Posted by Ronnieroadster

Since the temp went to 180 just sitting in the driveway with the outside temp at 86 that's not good. The temp difference you discovered from top to bottom using the heat gun is showing there's an issue with the radiator design. The air flow across the tubes/fins on the highway should be dropping the temp more than what your seeing. I would expect a reading of 180 on the highway however since its already at that point just idling in the driveway there's no way what your working with is going to get better.

Understanding how the flathead exhaust ports are super heating the water in the block a difference of only 15 degrees is not good.

What I would do if you haven't already is set the initial ignition timing at 12 degrees with a total all in of no more than 25 degrees. Personally I have never used a boost retard I see no reason for it unless the boost your getting is going above 10. If you do not see any reduction in the driveway temp after doing this in my opinion there's not much your going to do with the radiator you have.
Ronnieroadster

So Ronnie, on your blown engines do run 25 d at full boost?? Mine runs 5lbs of boost but as stated my boost retard scales it back anywhere from 1 to 3 d per pound of boost. I usually set it for 2 d so that brings my total advance back to 16 total advance. I have not tried setting it back to say 1 d per lb. This is what Mark Kirby (RIP) suggested when this engine was built in the 90's. I will give it a try at 1 deg.. There is 30,000 miles on this engine and it has been quite reliable so far putting out excellent power.

[solidaxle]

I read somewhere that if the coolant flows too quickly through the radiator it doesn't have time to cool. Maybe the design of the aluminum radiator slows down the flow. Could that be happening here?

[JayChicago]

The “coolant flows too quickly to cool” myth will never die.

[jrvariel48]

Originally Posted by Bored&Stroked

You'll surely need enough 'fan' to keep the engine cool at idle and at slower speeds. What I can't tell you is whether or not a combination of a fan/shroud (potentially restricting air flow at higher speeds) is compatible with achieving maximum air flow at cruise speeds - and that your radiator core has enough capacity to cool the engine with the amount of air going through it (with fan installed).

Once you pull the fan/shroud and run without ANY fan (at cruise speeds), you'll have another data point to apply in the design of a potential solution.

Unless you're experiencing a lot of fan restriction at cruise speeds, my guess is that you'll need a bigger core that can dissipate more heat.

Time will tell . . . best of luck!
B&S

My thoughts exactly B&S!

[jrvariel48]

Originally Posted by Ricosan

Hey Guys,

I’ve been following this thread from the beginning. Here’s my take. Jrvariel48 has put in hours and hours of labor doing his his due diligence in trying to find the cause of the overheating problem other than just a faulty radiator. Instead of continuing to find fault with Jrvariel48, it’s time for Lee at Brassworks to step up with an immediate solution - a new larger radiator. It’s the right thing to do.


Richard

Thank you Richard, I couldn't agree more. I've also spent a lot of money on this. I understand this hobby very well, but what's right is right!!
Thank you Joe

[jrvariel48]

Originally Posted by solidaxle

I read somewhere that if the coolant flows too quickly through the radiator it doesn't have time to cool. Maybe the design of the aluminum radiator slows down the flow. Could that be happening here?

I'm not sure about that so I don't want to comment on that theory.
Thank, Joe

[jrvariel48]

Thanks again to all the responders!

I'll try to get the fan/shroud off this weekend if possible. and get another fan installed without a shroud to see how we do. I'll post the results as soon as I can.

Thanks, Joe

[KiWinUS]

Originally Posted by jrvariel48

Thanks again to all the responders!

I'll try to get the fan/shroud off this weekend if possible. and get another fan installed without a shroud to see how we do. I'll post the results as soon as I can.

Thanks, Joe

Joe I believe you have already gone over the top to determine the answer. After 40 plus yeas in the racing industry I believe (hope) I have learned a little about cooling systems.
You only need the fan (s) for traffic or low speed. Other than that they are junk in the way. Brassworks knows this no doubt in my mind. Anything other than removing radiator to install correct core is just wasting time. Sorry calling it how it is.
Your blown engine still (respectfully) makes little hp. And with correct core will run very cool as even with blower added BTU,s it should be easy to cool. Just trying to help with my many years of experience. (I have been wrong before but doubt it in this case).
I believe it’s time to stop wasting energy and correct the problem. Cheers mate.
Tony

[Ronnieroadster]

Originally Posted by hotrodcbx

So Ronnie, on your blown engines do run 25 d at full boost?? Mine runs 5lbs of boost but as stated my boost retard scales it back anywhere from 1 to 3 d per pound of boost. I usually set it for 2 d so that brings my total advance back to 16 total advance. I have not tried setting it back to say 1 d per lb. This is what Mark Kirby (RIP) suggested when this engine was built in the 90's. I will give it a try at 1 deg.. There is 30,000 miles on this engine and it has been quite reliable so far putting out excellent power.

Yes I go to 25 max with no boost retard. But to do this you need gas that has to have a high octane rating.

When I was running my 258 CI flathead with a 671 GMC blower combination on the street when I felt the need to beat on the engine I would use 100NL gas from the local airport. I had lots of street miles on that engine in the thousands like yours.

That 258 cube engine powered my Land Speed Lakester race car. When I converted the Lakester to a Rear Engine Modified Roadster for testing I used that little old 258 engine. Testing on a runway in Maine resulted in a speed of 171 MPH the record on the salt flats at the time was 138. Still to this day I do not use any ignition retard with the race engine combination I can tell you the boost seen with the blower combinations I run are well over 10.

My flathead and ARDUN blower street combinations also put out boost higher than 5 lbs with no ignition retard being used.
Ronnieroadster

[Ronnieroadster]

Originally Posted by jrvariel48

Thanks again to all the responders!

I'll try to get the fan/shroud off this weekend if possible. and get another fan installed without a shroud to see how we do. I'll post the results as soon as I can.

Thanks, Joe

Joe you have gone well beyond trying to solve a problem that in my opinion based on my many decades of running supercharged flatheads on the street is being caused by a radiator that's never going to work.
Ronnieroadster

[solidaxle]

Originally Posted by JayChicago

The “coolant flows too quickly to cool” myth will never die.

It must be true, I read it on the internet!

[cadillac512]

Quote from the very first post on this thread:



" I've been trying to cool my car down a little for the past couple of months. When it's 50-60 degrees outside it's not a concern, but as we get into summer here in Jersey things really heat up. It seems that after I installed the radiator the problems started. I had a cheap Ebay aluminum P.O.S. it there last summer and I had no problems"

Now why in the world is this problem so damned hard to understand and correct ?



Terry

[The Brassworks]

Originally Posted by jrvariel48

Thanks to all that are responding to this post.

First off Lee I think all of this could've been avoided if you offered me a larger core. I did tell you this was for a supercharged flathead motor. I assume you know that flatheads have cooling issues without a supercharger so I'm a little baffled as to why this was not offered to me. As the expert, you should've told me or at least offered a suggestion that I needed the bigger core.

Second, I'm definitely not going to run two fans to try and solve the problem.

Third, I will try removing the shroud and fan, but I already explained to you that the fan motor is connected to the shroud so the motor can't be taken off and installed. I would have to go back to a pusher fan which we already know did not do the job. If you think the puller will do a better job than the pusher, I can try to fabricate some brackets to get it mounted. Tell me how far the fan blades need to be from the core. I have an older puller fan that may be too big, but I could also see if I could get that to fit.

I don't want to run the car without any fan with the coolant mixture I have in there now which is mostly water. I'm concerned with boil over.

It seems to me that the radiator itself is not doing the job.

I'm open to suggestions as to how we get this corrected.

I always recommend the largest core that fits. I always advocate pullers over pushers. There is no compelling reason anyone would elect for a thinner core except (1) the incremental cost e.g. $100 or (2) insufficient space. The fact that a pusher fan was used suggests we were told there was insufficient space. I did not measure the space. It was not my recommendation to build a thinner radiator; “expert” or otherwise.

I did check my emails prior to your build
> On Jun 16, 2021, at 4:36 AM, Joe V <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> 
> I've had no problems with the flex a lite, but I remember you saying the Spal was the way to go.
> It's a model 396 S-blade 2500 cfm (if that cfm is true). If you think the Spal will perform better, I'll go with
> that, but it needs to be a push type.
> I don't have room for a fan to pull. I also already have the relay etc. so I won't need that.
> Thanks for your time
> Joe


At highway speeds 205 deg. “its okay but you're not happy”, you exit the highway and drive 30-40mph at 190 deg. but going back to 45mph you “start to heat up again.” It's not quite the data set I'd like to see but I have suggested you try two offset fans (without a shroud) to see if the additional 1,959 cfm helps below 40mph and free air flow from removal of that shroud reduces your situational overheating above 40mph. Fans matter at ~40mph and lower. You are telling me you will definitely not do this.

You removed a SPAL pusher and put a cooling components puller fan in. We recommend SPAL fans because we believe their products are superior to all others on the market. I would not have mounted the puller fan and shroud but since you spent considerable money, I suggest you remove the shroud and you may derive benefit from it. Its four bolts.

I am not advocating the removal of fans. I am also not supportive of your coolant changes.

There are plenty of good suggestions on this forum but as my particular suggestions do not seem of value to you I am at a loss.

[KiWinUS]

Originally Posted by The Brassworks

I always recommend the largest core that fits. I always advocate pullers over pushers. There is no compelling reason anyone would elect for a thinner core except (1) the incremental cost e.g. $100 or (2) insufficient space. The fact that a pusher fan was used suggests we were told there was insufficient space. I did not measure the space. It was not my recommendation to build a thinner radiator; “expert” or otherwise.

I did check my emails prior to your build
> On Jun 16, 2021, at 4:36 AM, Joe V <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> 
> I've had no problems with the flex a lite, but I remember you saying the Spal was the way to go.
> It's a model 396 S-blade 2500 cfm (if that cfm is true). If you think the Spal will perform better, I'll go with
> that, but it needs to be a push type.
> I don't have room for a fan to pull. I also already have the relay etc. so I won't need that.
> Thanks for your time
> Joe


At highway speeds 205 deg. “its okay but you're not happy”, you exit the highway and drive 30-40mph at 190 deg. but going back to 45mph you “start to heat up again.” It's not quite the data set I'd like to see but I have suggested you try two offset fans (without a shroud) to see if the additional 1,959 cfm helps below 40mph and free air flow from removal of that shroud reduces your situational overheating above 40mph. Fans matter at ~40mph and lower. You are telling me you will definitely not do this.

You removed a SPAL pusher and put a cooling components puller fan in. We recommend SPAL fans because we believe their products are superior to all others on the market. I would not have mounted the puller fan and shroud but since you spent considerable money, I suggest you remove the shroud and you may derive benefit from it. Its four bolts.

I am not advocating the removal of fans. I am also not supportive of your coolant changes.

There are plenty of good suggestions on this forum but as my particular suggestions do not seem of value to you I am at a loss.

Lee. I have 40 plus years in the top of professional racing. I have worked with multiple engineers from Ford Motor Company to the exclusive builders of radiator’s for F1 and NASCAR. Again I may be wrong but I don’t believe so. This radiator is not up to standard. I have as a hobby built Ford flathead engines since I were 14. That’s 48 years From stock to hot rod. Not race flatheads like Ronnie Roadster ( a legend that knows his stuff).
Let’s stop the bs and either supply a radiator that will cool correctly or tell Joe you will not help him. I have read every comment on here. If straight water won’t cool you have a problem. If you need fans at cruise speed you have a problem. There are hundreds of blown flattys similar to Joe’s that run cool we all know HP = BTUs but even blown these engines in street form do no make excess BTUs. Let’s correct the root cause and get on with our fun lives. Thanks.
Cheers
Tony.

[Bored&Stroked]

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One additional comment: 205 degrees at highway speeds is too high in my mind . . . it tells me you have a cooling system problem, the timing is retarded, or the engine is running too lean - or some combination of the 3.

I would want a system that delivers a temperature between 180 and 190 - and NOT over 195 on a hot day (on the highway) - with your particular 7 lb cap.

Yes, you have a pressurized radiator - and that raises the boiling point, but it doesn't do anything about the total heat soak of the coolant.

Also, the hotter the engine, the easier it is to detonate it - and with a blown motor, this is even more of an issue.

[jrvariel48]

I always recommend the largest core that fits. I always advocate pullers over pushers. There is no compelling reason anyone would elect for a thinner core except (1) the incremental cost e.g. $100 or (2) insufficient space. The fact that a pusher fan was used suggests we were told there was insufficient space. I did not measure the space. It was not my recommendation to build a thinner radiator; “expert” or otherwise.

I did check my emails prior to your build
> On Jun 16, 2021, at 4:36 AM, Joe V <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> 
> I've had no problems with the flex a lite, but I remember you saying the Spal was the way to go.
> It's a model 396 S-blade 2500 cfm (if that cfm is true). If you think the Spal will perform better, I'll go with
> that, but it needs to be a push type.
> I don't have room for a fan to pull. I also already have the relay etc. so I won't need that.
> Thanks for your time
> Joe

Lets get something straight. I was NEVER offered a larger core. As the expert you should have offered or even insisted that I go with a larger core.
I told you, as per my above email, that I had a pusher because of no room for a puller. That DOES NOT say I don't have room for a larger core
I have over 15K in the set up and building of this motor. Do you think $100 would scare me away from a larger core. I always did things in excess when I put this car together
I'm not sure what you're trying to say, but it sounds like you're say I didn't want to go for the extra money for the larger core. I call B.S. sorry

[KiWinUS]

One more comment. A stock 36 radiator has 4 rows of tubes. Why would you build any less in a stock style radiator? Please answer that. I believe a correct stock radiator may cool this engine. Probably 85% of Joes driving produces near stock Mercury HP.

[The Brassworks]

Originally Posted by KiWinUS

One more comment. A stock 36 radiator has 4 rows of tubes. Why would you build any less in a stock style radiator? Please answer that. I believe a correct stock radiator may cool this engine. Probably 85% of Joes driving produces near stock Mercury HP.

You're correct a 1936 Ford has 4 rows. Joe has a 1935 car radiator (of which there are two designs) and it also has 4 rows but they're 3/8" oval shaped pitched at an angle and a thicker wall. There are also two core designs for the truck and they too used a similar tube shape. Today we use what is commonly called a 3/4" flat tube or elliptical shaped tube as they have more wall surface area per tube. Ford began doing this in 1930.

We also increase the fin density for more copper and heat exchange points Ford began doing this in 1932 and again in 1939.

You are probably right, Joe should buy a stock radiator.

[KiWinUS]

Originally Posted by The Brassworks

You're correct a 1936 Ford has 4 rows. Joe has a 1935 car radiator (of which there are two designs) and it also has 4 rows but they're 3/8" oval shaped pitched at an angle and a thicker wall. There are also two core designs for the truck and they too used a similar tube shape. Today we use what is commonly called a 3/4" flat tube or elliptical shaped tube as they have more wall surface area per tube. Ford began doing this in 1930.

We also increase the fin density for more copper and heat exchange points Ford began doing this in 1932 and again in 1939.

You are probably right, Joe should buy a stock radiator.

Lee are you telling us the radiator you sold Joe is not as efficient as a stock radiator? And you are not prepared to accept accountability for your radiator that will not cool as needed?
Are you going to step up to the plate and correct this issue ?

[Bored&Stroked]

Joe: Do the removal of the fan/shroud test - then you'll know if the radiator can handle the engine heat at cruise speed. I'd richen the carb first - test it with that, then pull the fan/shroud and test again. Once you see the results, you'll have a good idea as to if you have "enough radiator" for the application.

If you don't then I'd suggest a conversation with Lee to come up with a solution you can both live with . . . versus a stalemate and exploring other vendors. If this doesn't work, then you at least tried.

Best of luck,
Dale

[Ronnieroadster]

Originally Posted by The Brassworks

You're correct a 1936 Ford has 4 rows. Joe has a 1935 car radiator (of which there are two designs) and it also has 4 rows but they're 3/8" oval shaped pitched at an angle and a thicker wall. There are also two core designs for the truck and they too used a similar tube shape. Today we use what is commonly called a 3/4" flat tube or elliptical shaped tube as they have more wall surface area per tube. Ford began doing this in 1930.

We also increase the fin density for more copper and heat exchange points Ford began doing this in 1932 and again in 1939.

You are probably right, Joe should buy a stock radiator.

Wow what a guy that last line tells us a whole lot about your overall concern.
Ronnieroadster

[The Brassworks]

Originally Posted by KiWinUS

Lee are you telling us the radiator you sold Joe is not as efficient as a stock radiator? And you are not prepared to accept accountability for your radiator that will not cool as needed?
Are you going to step up to the plate and correct this issue ?

I am telling you its more efficient based on Ramanujan approximation of ellipse circumference.

I am not sure how to "step up" and "chime in". I am leaving the forum to go home and yell in my closet. It just makes more sense to me.

[The Brassworks]

Originally Posted by Ronnieroadster

Wow what a guy that last line tells us a whole lot about your overall concern.
Ronnieroadster

Think about the last line. Perhaps it means something more.

[Tinker]

I'm more interested in a gotcha scenario.


Big respect for responding. For me anyways.

[tubman]

Originally Posted by Tinker

I'm more interested in a gotcha scenario.


Big respect for responding. For me anyways.

Yeah. Too bad; he probab;y won't be back.

[Tinker]

Originally Posted by tubman

Yeah. Too bad; he probab;y won't be back.

Not sure I'm out on them.


Mods have always been a trial and error system. From production to application.


One thing I am understanding this is the first time I've heard of this over the years. Talk to me in 2 years.






.

[ford38v8]

I find it unsettling that a reputation is worth less these days than a radiator. Then again, with Walker out of the picture, perhaps a reputation is not a prerequisite to selling radiators after all.

[Tinker]

Alan as the internet works. All I have to do is say something and people will gang up even if they have never bought or know what is happening.

Time will tell though. No reason to speculate or condemn a system that might be great for a lot of other applications that are not for some specific moded version. Kinda of limiting a player. But...


quick to condemn and slow to forgive. Cancel them? Time will tell. Remember this whole thread is based on one persons motor.



.

[Tinker]

Maybe every time things don't work out. We shut them down. Leaving us with our d!cks in our hand.


I think that's how Don Prudhomme did things. When it didn't workout he posted on social media.


If you are questioning what rads I run, They are re cores. Not sure I could find some one today that could do it now. Never have purchased or worked for Brassworks.


Probably the best bet is they can give him his money back and walk away. Just my opinion.


.

[jrvariel48]

KiWinUS and Ronnieroadster.
I agree 100% that I'm just chasing my tail at this point. I will however do as B&S suggested and richen up the mix and remove the shrouded fan. It may take some time to do this because it's not just 4 bolts as Lee mentioned. The grille needs to come off again and that's a pain in the a$$ all by itself. The fit of the puller is that tight. After I figure out how to get some kind of fan on there, the grille needs to be reinstalled so that the lower pan is in place for proper testing.
Brassworks.
Lee I don't know why you have a problem with the coolant mix I'm using. I'm simply trying everything I can to find the source of the problem.
I also refuse to run two fans to find that problem. There's no reason this system shouldn't work properly with one fan.

[Ken Henry]

Any chance you are seeping combustion chamber gas into the coolant? I’ve always suspected this in my 51 stock system because it will climb at idle and 3000 rpm cruise. I added an overdrive years ago and it no longer heats up in the highway (~2000 rpm now). Ken

[AnthonyG]

Bol

[jrvariel48]

Originally Posted by Ken Henry

Any chance you are seeping combustion chamber gas into the coolant? I’ve always suspected this in my 51 stock system because it will climb at idle and 3000 rpm cruise. I added an overdrive years ago and it no longer heats up in the highway (~2000 rpm now). Ken

I tried the liquid tester to check that and it came up clean
Good call though! Thanks Joe

[jrvariel48]

Lee emailed me and said he's not coming back on the forum. He sent me a list of things to try.
Here's what he said:

One change at a time. Get a note pad and log results under various conditions after making one change before you make the next change.
What's relevant is the temperature in and out and I saw you bought an inline gauge.
The highway and off ramp temps are what I would want to see most.
Log the date, air temp, gauge temps (at idle, 10-20, 30-40, 50-60), distances traveled at respective speeds and any changes observed within those speeds.
The cooling components fan claims 2,500. You spent money on this product so use it.

That shroud is trapping air at higher speeds and then not recovering I am not sure its the root cause but its not helping and your description sounds like trapped air flow and heat soak
Remove the shroud. In this scaled illustration the black is flush against the core and in the grey area, the air has to pass in a ~7/8” gap around the ~1” solid ring supporting the blades. Your temps are okay around town but climb on the highway this will help on the highway and you'll have to see how it does around town. You may be able to run one fan

If that reduces your temperatures enough for highway and town, then stop. If it gets you lower and you still want more, then put the SPAL pusher back on in an offset position. The yellow gives you 1,959 cfm. The green claims 2,500 cfm, the blue area is the combined cfm (not literally). This will help on the highway and this will help it recover (from what I hope is an already lower than 205 temperature from getting rid of that molded plastic).


The only other suggestion I would make is two SPAL fans. I would NOT go this route I tested step 3 and step 4 because of the incremental cost

they're better quality.
the combined stated cfm is lower than the two you have now but I believe it to be closer to reality.

the motors have smaller diameters to impede air and the vanes and finger guards block less air than the flex lite you had and the cooling components you bought.


I recall you said the hoses had not collapsed. Check your coolant flow with thermostats open and higher rpm. If its not pumping enough you may want to check your pump impellers condition and design. The guys who mentioned the fallacy of fluid too fast are correct - there is no such thing. The oe pumps used cast impellers. The casting is thick and they have a reduced eye which results in reduced volume. The vanes are not tall and this too reduces the flow. I have seen worn vanes and you should look for evidence of cavitation e.g. pitting and tip wear if you don't have flow.
Regarding your coolant composition.

Water has the best specific heat value to shed heat.

Ethylene glycol and propylene glycol have engine preservation properties and raises boiling point but lower specific heat. Specific heat is the amount of heat required to change the temperature of a mass unit of a substance by one degree.

You're using 20/80 propylene glycol at 328' elevation and have a 7psi cap I expect you'll boil at 233 deg. You are running at 205 on the highway so boiling is not a concern but specific heat is.

Tap water may have minerals and create scale so use a premix or distilled water.

[jrvariel48]

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I'm going to entertain his list up to the point of running two fans. I'll remove the shroud and remount the puller fan. I don't have great faith in this because of the previous pusher fans I had that didn't get the job done. I'll incorporate B&S's idea and change main jets. This is going to take a bit to get done, but I'll try it.
As Ronnieroadster said having a temperature of 180* just sitting in the driveway is not good.
I don't know what Lee's plan is if nothing works and I think he's going to screw me over if I don't want to try the two fan theory. I doubt very much that he'll give me a refund, etc.
If that's the case, out comes the Brassworks radiator. I have a great shop close to home that could probably redo the core for me. More $$$$$

[Ziggster]

I haven’t read every post, but I would have ditched that radiator a while back. I had my OE redone at a local rad shop for my other OT project, and they botched it bad as far as the soldering job. They were highly rated on FB, so I figure a no brainer. Brought it back, owner agreed and it was only slightly better. Said I could have done a better job and just walked out. Feel it was a $600 total waste of money and wished I would have spent it on a quality aluminum aftermarket one (Wizard Cooling made in USA).

[jrvariel48]

I hear what you’re saying but at this point I have a lot of money and time in this and I feel I have to see it through for the sake of process of elimination. I asked the builder what if all this doesn’t work out? Will you give me a full refund or credit towards a local shop repair?
He hasn’t yet

[Tony, NY]

I had a custom radiator built by Custom Auto Radiator in New Jersey, for my off topic car with a 500 cu in. Caddy. Four inch core. Works very good. Has a puller fan. https://www.customautoradiator.com/

[Bored&Stroked]

I like your plan Joe - at least it will let you determine if overall cruise airflow is an issue, or radiator cooling capacity. We can guess all we want - your systematic changes and the results should give you what you need to make decisions.

I wish you the best of luck!
B&S

[jrvariel48]

Originally Posted by Tony, NY

I had a custom radiator built by Custom Auto Radiator in New Jersey, for my off topic car with a 500 cu in. Caddy. Four inch core. Works very good. Has a puller fan. https://www.customautoradiator.com/

That's where ronnieroadster has his built and was very happy from what heb said. I actually got a quote from them today.

[jrvariel48]

Originally Posted by Bored&Stroked

I like your plan Joe - at least it will let you determine if overall cruise airflow is an issue, or radiator cooling capacity. We can guess all we want - your systematic changes and the results should give you what you need to make decisions.

I wish you the best of luck!
B&S

I have to at least try! The grille has been off so many times in the past few weeks, what's a couple more!

[jrvariel48]

I spoke to Lee today. He's claiming that because I said I had no room for a puller fan they assumed I wanted a 3 core radiator. I bit my tongue because that's the type of person I am. He also said he's offering solutions that I don't want to try so he's basically washing his hands of me. One of his solutions is a puller and a pusher. I'm not running two fans.
I told him I would try removing the shroud and report back to him. I doubt this will do much after a Spal pusher fan didn't work. I'm not a quitter so I'll try it out

He also said I should check the water pumps for proper flow. The only way I was able to do that was when I had the filler funnel on the filler neck. When I gave it gas it pushed the coolant out. The pumps were new Speedway pumps. Anyone want to comment on them??
I can certainly pull one off to see what it looks like

[jrvariel48]

I took it upon myself to call Cooling Components the makers of my shrouded fan and told them a radiator vendor told me to remove it because it was trapping air. He immediately said are you only having trouble at high speed? Of course, I answered yes!
He told me to cut the top flange down to about an 1/8" and move the shroud directly under the tank. He also told me to trim the bottom of the shroud past the flange and into the taper part of the shroud. He said that being open on the bottom would now act as a vent at higher speeds. I have to try this and see what happens

[Ziggster]

I thought I had purchased Drake pumps, but in fact had purchased ones from Speedway. Curious to see as well what others have to say after the thread on Skip’s pumps. I just hope like hell I never experience an overheating issue.

[40cpe]

jrvariel48, I have two thoughts for you to evaluate: 1) if your pumps weren't producing flow, I think water would stay in the radiator longer and cool more than the 7 degrees you are measuring. Also, they wouldn't push water out when the engine is rev'd. 2) If you cut your shroud, your fan might draw some air through the cuts instead of through the radiator and might not be effective at idle or cruise. I wouldn't cut it until removing it proved it beneficial to cooling at cruise speeds.

[cadillac512]

Joe-
The Speedway pumps are working perfectly on my 260" Merc. I run a recored stock radiator in a '41 Merc and it runs down the road 60 mph at 190 degrees on a 100 degree day (104 here today). 50/50 green ethylene glycol coolant , stock 4 blade crank mounted fan. It'll get to 200 sitting at idle in a drive - through line but never loses any coolant, and I run a non pressurized cap with no recovery bottle.



Terry

[Tinker]

Terry this guy is running a blower and maybe it's been addressed.... your bore?

Being it cools down after highway runs at low or idle? Might be a flow issue...

I'd ditch the thermostats. Turbulence for no reason. Less you take this beast out in winter months.


Bummer they don't want to work with you to figure this out. Just makes a better rad.


Best of luck!!!

[jrvariel48]

Originally Posted by Ziggster

I thought I had purchased Drake pumps, but in fact had purchased ones from Speedway. Curious to see as well what others have to say after the thread on Skip’s pumps. I just hope like hell I never experience an overheating issue.

How long have you had the Speedway pumps? I' guessing no problems?

Yes, cooling problems are not fun!!

[jrvariel48]

Originally Posted by 40cpe

jrvariel48, I have two thoughts for you to evaluate: 1) if your pumps weren't producing flow, I think water would stay in the radiator longer and cool more than the 7 degrees you are measuring. Also, they wouldn't push water out when the engine is rev'd. 2) If you cut your shroud, your fan might draw some air through the cuts instead of through the radiator and might not be effective at idle or cruise. I wouldn't cut it until removing it proved it beneficial to cooling at cruise speeds.

I agree with the pumps working, I think my flow is fine.

As far as the shroud goes, the fan and shroud were designed together so we're not exactly sure how the fan will work without the shroud.
I figured I'll try cutting first because the shroud at this point is not returnable anyway. Let's see what happens

[jrvariel48]

Originally Posted by Tinker

Terry this guy is running a blower and maybe it's been addressed.... your bore?

Being it cools down after highway runs at low or idle? Might be a flow issue...

I'd ditch the thermostats. Turbulence for no reason. Less you take this beast out in winter months.


Bummer they don't want to work with you to figure this out. Just makes a better rad.


Best of luck!!!

Bore diameter is 3.328" so no huge bore here. I'd like to keep the stats in if I could because I do drive all winter.
If enough people think I should remove them for the summer months, I could certainly do that.
Anyone want to add their experience with no stats???

I'm just pissed that they won't good on it after they "assumed I couldn't fit a larger core"
I think it's a BS excuse.
Let's see what I can figure out
I don't need my motor at 180*, but I don't like 210* either.
Thanks Tinker!

[jrvariel48]

Originally Posted by cadillac512

Joe-
The Speedway pumps are working perfectly on my 260" Merc. I run a recored stock radiator in a '41 Merc and it runs down the road 60 mph at 190 degrees on a 100 degree day (104 here today). 50/50 green ethylene glycol coolant , stock 4 blade crank mounted fan. It'll get to 200 sitting at idle in a drive - through line but never loses any coolant, and I run a non pressurized cap with no recovery bottle.



Terry

Wow! That's impressive! I wish I had numbers like that.
One day.

[flatjack9]

Originally Posted by jrvariel48

Bore diameter is 3.328" so no huge bore here. I'd like to keep the stats in if I could because I do drive all winter.
If enough people think I should remove them for the summer months, I could certainly do that.
Anyone want to add their experience with no stats???

I'm just pissed that they won't good on it after they "assumed I couldn't fit a larger core"
I think it's a BS excuse.
Let's see what I can figure out
I don't need my motor at 180*, but I don't like 210* either.
Thanks Tinker!

I think 180 is ideal

[Kurt in NJ]

Originally Posted by jrvariel48

I tried the liquid tester to check that and it came up clean
Good call though! Thanks Joe

I did this on my friend Packard, negative test at idle, reving in .
Removed the head, the gasket showed leaking down the center , new gasket cured it

Had a 46 big truck, the flea market truck, always 2 ton load, put in a 49 merc engine, split the exhaust, put a new 69 mustang 302 muffler on it for the second muffler , pulling a hill that bank would overheat, had to throttle by temperature, put a second stock muffler and the problem went away.
amazing that a muffler for a 302 was too restrictive for 1/2 of a flathead.

[Ronnieroadster]

Been away testing the race car for Speedweek so I'm just catching up on what's happening. Its going to be interesting to see if the shroud modification accomplishes anything. Its best to try one thing at a time however the shroud modification's may be the last experiment.
Ronnieroadster

[jrvariel48]

Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)

Originally Posted by flatjack9

I think 180 is ideal

Believe me flatjack9 it is for me too, but I could live with 200* if it's the highest it goes on the hottest days just idling in traffic

[jrvariel48]

Originally Posted by Kurt in NJ

I did this on my friend Packard, negative test at idle, reving in .
Removed the head, the gasket showed leaking down the center , new gasket cured it

Had a 46 big truck, the flea market truck, always 2 ton load, put in a 49 merc engine, split the exhaust, put a new 69 mustang 302 muffler on it for the second muffler , pulling a hill that bank would overheat, had to throttle by temperature, put a second stock muffler and the problem went away.
amazing that a muffler for a 302 was too restrictive for 1/2 of a flathead.

I would think that would show up even at idle, apparently not. This is something I'll keep on the back burner for sure.
The exhaust issue is also vey intriguing. I'm using 12" long Smitty's mufflers. The system has very few minor bends except the 90* bends where the exit the side of the car.
Thank you,
Joe

[jrvariel48]

Originally Posted by Ronnieroadster

Been away testing the race car for Speedweek so I'm just catching up on what's happening. Its going to be interesting to see if the shroud modification accomplishes anything. Its best to try one thing at a time however the shroud modification's may be the last experiment.
Ronnieroadster

Ronnieroadster, I hope your testing went the way you wanted it to.
I'm very skeptical about the shroud mod doing anything so it's actually the first thing I did. I'm also not 100% sure this particular fan without the shroud will do much either. I believe the fan and shroud are designed together so I don't know if the fan by itself will be enough. I'm going to try testing it today if the weather holds up.
If that fails, I'll change my initial timing to 12* and see how that goes.
After that I'll change jets to richen things up a bit
Before I remove the shroud, I owe a phone call to Sam from CCI, the makers of the fan/shroud, to let him know what happened. He was pretty confident that this would do the trick. I'll ask him if that fan could be run effectively without the shroud.
Thanks Joe

[jrvariel48]

This test is being done without the grille/lower grille pan.

First test complete-nothing changed. 73* outside temp.
I cut the shroud and moved it higher as recommended by the manufacturer.
I drove the backroads at 10-20, 20-30 and 30-40 mph and the temp stayed at about 190*.
As soon as I got on the highway past 55mph it went up to 205*
after about 2 minutes off of the highway, the temp dropped back to 190*

Test 2 complete-nothing changed 79* outside temp
Fan and shroud stayed the same.
I bumped up my initial timing to 12*
Temp went up to 190* again cruising at low speeds and shot up to 205* again at higher speeds.

Right now it seems to point to the radiator.
As I was taking the car apart on Friday I have to tell you I was not happy!
Lee from Brassworks is really a pompous guy and is not taking any blame for this and that pisses me off.
I did speak to Chuck at CAR here in Jersey that ronnieroadster recommended and he'll build me a 4" core.
I don't have a problem fitting the 4" core I just can't get a puller in there. This is where Lee "ASSUMED" I needed a 2 5/8" core. That's just dumb, plain and simple.
I told him I WILL NOT run two fans and this will be his excuse for not accepting responsibility.
I know a puller fan is better, but it's hard to believe a pusher can't get the job done.
Thanks, Joe

[cadillac512]

Get a real radiator in there and your pusher fan will likely be just fine. Pompous guys really annoy me....fragile egos.

[jrvariel48]

Originally Posted by cadillac512

Get a real radiator in there and your pusher fan will likely be just fine. Pompous guys really annoy me....fragile egos.

Couldn't agree more Cadi!!

[ford38v8]

Originally Posted by jrvariel48

I know a puller fan is better, but it's hard to believe a pusher can't get the job done.
Thanks, Joe

A puller fan with a shroud creates a vacuum within the entire shroud.
A pusher fan creates a turbulence beyond the perimeter of the blades that prevents free air flow at those points beyond the perimeter of the blades.

[jrvariel48]

Originally Posted by ford38v8

A puller fan with a shroud creates a vacuum within the entire shroud.
A pusher fan creates a turbulence beyond the perimeter of the blades that prevents free air flow at those points beyond the perimeter of the blades.

I guess the only real way to tell is to put this puller fan on another radiator

[Ronnieroadster]

Joe I use a relatively small diameter puller electric fan that I located between the blower pulleys and idler assembly on both of the family Deuces. Since the fan is only needed around town once you have a radiator that's working better the size of the fan I feel will not need to be very large. Todays electric fans are really thin thanks to the pan cake type motors actually thinner than the much older fans I have from the last century.
To test how much of the radiator core the fans I use actually pull air threw on my Deuces if I put a sheet of paper at any location on the outside of the grill the paper will stay in place I'm surprised on how well just a small puller works.
Ronnieroadster

[jrvariel48]

Originally Posted by Ronnieroadster

Joe I use a relatively small diameter puller electric fan that I located between the blower pulleys and idler assembly on both of the family Deuces. Since the fan is only needed around town once you have a radiator that's working better the size of the fan I feel will not need to be very large. Todays electric fans are really thin thanks to the pan cake type motors actually thinner than the much older fans I have from the last century.
To test how much of the radiator core the fans I use actually pull air threw on my Deuces if I put a sheet of paper at any location on the outside of the grill the paper will stay in place I'm surprised on how well just a small puller works.
Ronnieroadster

That’s comforting to to know. Do you remember the details of you radiator build from CAR? They gave me a quote on a 4” 7 row
Thanks Joe

[Ronnieroadster]

Joe here's the dimension first the core is 3-1/2 inches thick remember this is a 32 so the original radiator support and mounting is no more than 3 -1/2 inches wide. The core is a staggered tube design with full fins from side to side the tube count side to side is 27.
I'm not able to count the the number of tubes from front to back due to the staggered arrangement but I will say there's a lot of them maybe less than seven but is hard to tell.
Since the tape was out measured the fan as well its 12 inches in diameter and being old its 4 -1/2 inch's out from the core.

[jrvariel48]

Originally Posted by Ronnieroadster

Joe here's the dimension first the core is 3-1/2 inches thick remember this is a 32 so the original radiator support and mounting is no more than 3 -1/2 inches wide. The core is a staggered tube design with full fins from side to side the tube count side to side is 27.
I'm not able to count the the number of tubes from front to back due to the staggered arrangement but I will say there's a lot of them maybe less than seven but is hard to tell.
Since the tape was out measured the fan as well its 12 inches in diameter and being old its 4 -1/2 inch's out from the core.

Great thanks Ronnie!

[Ziggster]

FWIW, everything else being equal, and if my memory serves me correctly, you can simply extrapolate coolant temps at different ambient temps based on the difference between the ambient temp you wish to theorize about. For example, if you have a coolant temp of 205F at 80F ambient, and want to know what the coolant temp would be at 100F (under the exact same operating conditions), you would simply add the difference between the two ambient temps to the coolant temp. So, under the same conditions, at 100F ambient, the coolant temp would be 225F. At least that is how we used to calculate coolant temps at higher than available ambient temps.

[jrvariel48]

Originally Posted by Ziggster

FWIW, everything else being equal, and if my memory serves me correctly, you can simply extrapolate coolant temps at different ambient temps based on the difference between the ambient temp you wish to theorize about. For example, if you have a coolant temp of 205F at 80F ambient, and want to know what the coolant temp would be at 100F (under the exact same operating conditions), you would simply add the difference between the two ambient temps to the coolant temp. So, under the same conditions, at 100F ambient, the coolant temp would be 225F. At least that is how we used to calculate coolant temps at higher than available ambient temps.

That sounds right to me Ziggster
Thanks Joe

[Shoebox]

Been following this from page one,...... any updates?


Thanks!

[jrvariel48]

Originally Posted by Shoebox

Been following this from page one,...... any updates?


Thanks!

Shoebox
I removed the CCI fan/shroud last night and I'm installing a Flex-a-lite puller fan this this weekend. They have a new series that's supposed to put out 3000 cfm.
if this don't work, it's the radiator . I spoke to Lee from Brassworks again yesterday and still he accepts no responsibility so I'm on my own here.

Thanks for asking!
Joe

[Ricosan]

What’s the price of a reputation? $1,000, $1500? $10,000? It’s incalculable the cost in lost business as Brassworks continues to refuse to step up and end this absurdity. Even if Lee stepped forward today, he has still lost tens of thousands of dollars in future business. It just makes good business sense for Brassworks to stop the bleeding right now from his self inflicted wounds.

Richard

[Bored&Stroked]

Originally Posted by Ricosan

What’s the price of a reputation? $1,000, $1500? $10,000? It’s incalculable the cost in lost business as Brassworks continues to refuse to step up and end this absurdity. Even if Lee stepped forward today, he has still lost tens of thousands of dollars in future business. It just makes good business sense for Brassworks to stop the bleeding right now from his self inflicted wounds.

Richard

Even if he offered to "meet yah half way" - that would be a fair compromise. But to offer nothing . . . not good.

[Bored&Stroked]

Originally Posted by jrvariel48

Shoebox
I removed the CCI fan/shroud last night and I'm installing a Flex-a-lite puller fan this this weekend. They have a new series that's supposed to put out 3000 cfm.
if this don't work, it's the radiator . I spoke to Lee from Brassworks again yesterday and still he accepts no responsibility so I'm on my own here.

Thanks for asking!
Joe

I don't see how a fan is going to help you at cruise - unless your prior setup had an air restriction due to a shroud. But, time will tell!

[Ziggster]

Can you post a pic of the new puller fan as I thought there was no room for one. If that fan can pull 3000 CFM, then I wound hazard to guess that there should be no issue at cruise or idle. Would be interesting to know what the fan pulls at idle.

[jrvariel48]

Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)

Originally Posted by Ricosan

What’s the price of a reputation? $1,000, $1500? $10,000? It’s incalculable the cost in lost business as Brassworks continues to refuse to step up and end this absurdity. Even if Lee stepped forward today, he has still lost tens of thousands of dollars in future business. It just makes good business sense for Brassworks to stop the bleeding right now from his self inflicted wounds.

Richard

I couldn't agree more Richard. The fact that he wants me to try two fans after I told him I don't want two fans on my car baffles me. I don't care if that solves the problem or not, I shouldn't have to do that. He told me the radiator he built is what I ordered. Even after it said "blown Flathead" on the build sheet he still thinks what he gave me should do the job because "it's better than Ford ever made" What kind of logic is that???!!! That technology was from 1935!!!
He never brought up core size when we put the order together. I relied on him to tell me what I needed and he failed as far as I'm concerned.
I didn't want to mention this, but I will now.
I installed his radiator and drove the car twice for less than 10 total miles total and I noticed the top mount where the firewall rods are tied in, started to tear away from the top tank.
I sent him numerous emails over a two month period and heard NOTHING from him. I pulled the radiator and brought it to get repaired by a well known shop near me which cost $255!!!
When I mentioned that to him yesterday he said " that shouldn't have happened" and that was the end of the conversation.
I already contacted CAR here in jersey for a radiator because this dope WILL NOT take responsibility for "assuming I didn't have enough room because I said I had no room for a puller.
Professional my a$$ I'm waiting for a puller fan to come. It should be here tomorrow
Hopefully I'll have time to install it and take it for a test run.
Thanks Joe

[jrvariel48]

Originally Posted by Bored&Stroked

Even if he offered to "meet yah half way" - that would be a fair compromise. But to offer nothing . . . not good.

I'd be completely happy with that!

[jrvariel48]

Originally Posted by Bored&Stroked

I don't see how a fan is going to help you at cruise - unless your prior setup had an air restriction due to a shroud. But, time will tell!

I have my fingers crossed! This is unreal.

[jrvariel48]

Originally Posted by Ziggster

Can you post a pic of the new puller fan as I thought there was no room for one. If that fan can pull 3000 CFM, then I wound hazard to guess that there should be no issue at cruise or idle. Would be interesting to know what the fan pulls at idle.

https://flex-a-lite.com/16-inch-flex...an-puller.html

I would've gone with the Spal, but it was only 2024 cfm. Even if the Flex-a-lite gives me 2200 cfm, it's still more than the Spal. I really never knew I could fit a puller of that size in there. Last night I tried a Spal pusher and to my surprise it fit! I wish I tried that before I spent the $420 on the CCI fan/shroud!!!
Let's hope for the best.
Thanks Joe

[estout81]

Beware of aftermarket fans and shrouds. I bought a '51 Ford that had a aftermarket fan and shroud plus air. The air didn't work. I removed the air and left the fan and shroud thinking they would help the cooling. Still ran hot at idle or at speed! Put a piece of paper in front of rad. at idle and it fell off! Took off the aftermarket fan and shroud and guess what, no more overheat!
The fan I used was a stock four blade fan and it will hold a piece of paper tight to the rad. These are just my results, yours may very.

[jrvariel48]

Originally Posted by estout81

Beware of aftermarket fans and shrouds. I bought a '51 Ford that had a aftermarket fan and shroud plus air. The air didn't work. I removed the air and left the fan and shroud thinking they would help the cooling. Still ran hot at idle or at speed! Put a piece of paper in front of rad. at idle and it fell off! Took off the aftermarket fan and shroud and guess what, no more overheat!
The fan I used was a stock four blade fan and it will hold a piece of paper tight to the rad. These are just my results, yours may very.

Excellent!! I hope to get results by Sunday
Thanks for the input!
Joe

[Ronnieroadster]

Joe what lousy a way to spend your summer. Experimenting and spending more money trying to fix a problem that's caused by a very poor quality radiator. What you just wrote about the support rod mount needing repair on a new radiator after only 10 miles that repair expense should have been covered by brassworks.
I can tell you when I experienced an issue with the radiator I received from CAR after many months of use. All they asked I do is have it fixed locally and submit the bill to them. Some company's are interested in service and future sales its obvious brassworks in not one of them.
Ronnieroadster

[The Brassworks]

Still not listening. Still not understanding.

High speed overheating is rarely a fan problem and more frequently trapped air which in your case is causing heat soak.

Twice I suggested you remove the shroud, mount the puller fan you have and get numbers. If it improves and you seek more cooling, position the SPAL fan pusher higher and the Cooling components puller fan lower to prevent the heat soak at 50-40 mph (and get more numbers). If you still want more cooling swap the Cooing components for a higher cfm SPAL fan.

We keep talking through this and you told me you would do this twice and you did not do it. You called cooling components and they told you to cut holes in the shroud to free air. You instead fixate on two fans and went on this forum to rant. You also want to buying fans with advertised cfms that likely come from a controlled lab environment and not the real world. Something we discussed and I thought you understood.

I can't help you if you won't listen and when you talk sh*t on this forum about me it makes me not want to. Apologies if this candor offends the delicate sensibilities of the forum.

[Ziggster]

Originally Posted by jrvariel48

https://flex-a-lite.com/16-inch-flex...an-puller.html

I would've gone with the Spal, but it was only 2024 cfm. Even if the Flex-a-lite gives me 2200 cfm, it's still more than the Spal. I really never knew I could fit a puller of that size in there. Last night I tried a Spal pusher and to my surprise it fit! I wish I tried that before I spent the $420 on the CCI fan/shroud!!!
Let's hope for the best.
Thanks Joe

That’s a really interesting blade design. Never seen anything like it before. I’m not sure about the claims of slicing through the air easier as it has more surface area due to the rippled edge. Remember all these claims of airflow are at 0”H2O static pressure (i.e. no resistance). Those values are really meaningless as all real world scenarios involve some kind of resistance. What’s important is how much air will the fan will move at the corresponding resistance (pressure drop) across the radiator and any other obstructions. You’ll only know once you test it.

[KiWinUS]

Originally Posted by The Brassworks

Still not listening. Still not understanding.

High speed overheating is rarely a fan problem and more frequently trapped air which in your case is causing heat soak.

Twice I suggested you remove the shroud, mount the puller fan you have and get numbers. If it improves and you seek more cooling, position the SPAL fan pusher higher and the Cooling components puller fan lower to prevent the heat soak at 50-40 mph (and get more numbers). If you still want more cooling swap the Cooing components for a higher cfm SPAL fan.

We keep talking through this and you told me you would do this twice and you did not do it. You called cooling components and they told you to cut holes in the shroud to free air. You instead fixate on two fans and went on this forum to rant. You also want to buying fans with advertised cfms that likely come from a controlled lab environment and not the real world. Something we discussed and I thought you understood.

I can't help you if you won't listen and when you talk sh*t on this forum about me it makes me not want to. Apologies if this candor offends the delicate sensibilities of the forum.

Will you just replace the core for Joe with as big of core as will fit? Simple question

[The Brassworks]

Originally Posted by ford38v8

A puller fan with a shroud creates a vacuum within the entire shroud.
A pusher fan creates a turbulence beyond the perimeter of the blades that prevents free air flow at those points beyond the perimeter of the blades.

That is true however the SPAL fan blades are contained inside a 1-1/8" vertical ring and the fan is inside that ring. The pusher fan is mounted flush to the core thereby directing all air through the ring. Air outside the ring is not disrupted by the blade.

The cooling components fan blades are fixed to a ring and that ring is inside the shroud. The entire fan shroud area must be pulled through a ~7/8' gap to get out.

[The Brassworks]

Originally Posted by jrvariel48

https://flex-a-lite.com/16-inch-flex...an-puller.html

I would've gone with the Spal, but it was only 2024 cfm. Even if the Flex-a-lite gives me 2200 cfm, it's still more than the Spal. I really never knew I could fit a puller of that size in there. Last night I tried a Spal pusher and to my surprise it fit! I wish I tried that before I spent the $420 on the CCI fan/shroud!!!
Let's hope for the best.
Thanks Joe

The SPAL dimensions were all called out on the original order we sent. They're also online everywhere. Why would you be surprised. I offered to send you a fan for trial.

We also had an extensive conversation yesterday about fans and stated/advertised cfms and you elected to go with a flex-a-lite. You went your own way again.

I seriously cannot believe you.

[The Brassworks]

Originally Posted by Ricosan

What’s the price of a reputation? $1,000, $1500? $10,000? It’s incalculable the cost in lost business as Brassworks continues to refuse to step up and end this absurdity. Even if Lee stepped forward today, he has still lost tens of thousands of dollars in future business. It just makes good business sense for Brassworks to stop the bleeding right now from his self inflicted wounds.

Richard

Thanks for the advice.

We have been trying to help Joe but Joe won't help himself. We have tried from the start but Joe has not listened and won't listen. He has been on this forum ever for a purpose other than getting his engine temperature down 10 degrees.

Perhaps you do not see it but I do.

Pompously yours,

Lee

[Ronnieroadster]

Originally Posted by KiWinUS

Will you just replace the core for Joe with as big of core as will fit? Simple question

Can you hear the silence

[The Brassworks]

Originally Posted by Ronnieroadster

Can you hear the silence

Patience Princess, I am trying to type and do payroll.

[The Brassworks]

Originally Posted by KiWinUS

Will you just replace the core for Joe with as big of core as will fit? Simple question

Yes; it is a simple question. Perhaps I would have earlier but I will not now.

Joe was presented with a core and puller fan and specifically instructed me in writing to build the same core with a pusher because he "did not have room" for a puller. I did not measure this for him or dissuade him from buying a large core. He has a large personality which I presume comes from competence; I will not make this mistake again. We made what he ordered and he wants to reduce his supercharged flathead 10 degrees at ~50-40mph. This can likely be done if Joe listened.

Joe has not listened, he talks out both sides of his mouth and he has used this forum to disparage our product and me personally. This is an unregulated platform that stands forever and our business suffers from this. Joe knows this and people have made comments to this effect. Its an effective strategy for unprincipled people.

Perhaps this is not what you expected to hear. You want to hear the customer is always right. I wish this were the case and if this statement causes you to change your opinion of me or the company, I completely understand.

[KiWinUS]

[QUOTE=The Brassworks;2150421]Yes; it is a simple question. Perhaps I would have earlier but I will not now.
Seems like was a tough question for you to answer but as I stated “ a simple question needing a simple answer “
Thanks for the enlightening answer.
Cheers

[The Brassworks]

[QUOTE=KiWinUS;2150422]

Originally Posted by The Brassworks

Yes; it is a simple question. Perhaps I would have earlier but I will not now.
Seems like was a tough question for you to answer but as I stated “ a simple question needing a simple answer “
Thanks for the enlightening answer.
Cheers

Yup, that's the thing. The devil is in the details.

[ford38v8]

Lee at Brassworks,

Many if not most of here are old codgers, set in our ways, opinionated. We hear what we want to hear and ignore those who don't agree with our thinking. My wife bought me a coffee cup that reads: MR. RIGHT. She knows me well.
We see a lot of miscommunication right here on this thread, some advice that was discounted from the git go, some that was agreed to but postponed, some that was not acknowledged, and of course, some from guys that didn't read the previous posts.
I know, it's hard to swallow getting badmouthed, especially under these difficult conditions. That said, and particularly true because of these conditions, my considered opinion is that a compromise offer on your part would go a tremendous way toward restoring what I'm sure was a good reputation till this unfortunate incident. I and more than a few others here hope you see it our way!

[Bored&Stroked]

Originally Posted by The Brassworks

Patience Princess, I am trying to type and do payroll.

I'm not one to tell anybody how to run their business, but was this comment really necessary? "Patience Princess"?

Talk about demeaning to somebody who is one of the best in the world of high-performance flatheads. Peeing on his shoes accomplished nothing of value for anybody.

PS: I just referred a very close personal friend to you today (to make a custom radiator for a vintage car) - so I wish you (and him) well. With that said, it is hard for us on the Barn to stomach your attitude on this specific conversation.

1) Fans, Fans, Fans: Explain to me how a better fan is going to help his cooling at cruise speed? All this talk about pushers/pullers, CFM this, CFM that - what the heck does it have to do with a car going down the road at 50 mph? I've yet to hear an explanation that is viable - so bring it to the table?

2) Why We're All on the Barn: The fact is that most everybody on this forum is here to HELP one another. None of us have all the answers - so we try to work through problems and seek out solutions. At the same time, this body of folks has more expertise on vintage flathead engines than any public place you'll find. Joe came here for help - he seems to be willing to work through issues . . . that is why we care about his problems and hope that a solution is found.

What we've not heard from you is the fact that MAYBE his radiator won't cool his engine . . . and that you're willing to work with him to sort it out. THAT would be good for Joe, good for Brassworks and we'd all say that "Lee is a solid dude and he compromised for the good of all". Wouldn't that be a good position to be in?

All we're hearing is that everything is Joe's fault . . . while he may not be perfect (none are), those of us with experience have reasonable suspicions about the ability of THIS particular radiator to cool his engine - regardless of any dang fan you put on it. If the core/capacity of the radiator is not up to the task - there is NOTHING that any fan will do to help it. So, WHAT can he do to figure out the basics? Me - I'd take ALL fans off and take the car on the road . . . remove those variables.

Work with him, work with us . . . let's get him a "cool car" going down the road.

What is so hard about finding a solution FIRST, then determining how best to pay for it.

[Tinker]

Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)

Maybe has spent too much time on twitter. Hearts and minds... not social media troll warfare.

"I'm not one to tell anybody how to run their business, but was this comment really necessary? "Patience Princess"?

Talk about demeaning to somebody who is one of the best in the world of high-performance flatheads. Peeing on his shoes accomplished nothing of value for anybody."


I'll give it to them for not running away. Discussion is good. i'm sure edelbrock has taken a few lumps over the years. Nor am I saying Vic never called anyone a princess. I couldn't possibly know that.


See how this plays out I guess.


Bored your last two sentences make a lot of sense. R&D and the company doesn't have to build the motor. Free testers and developers in real world situations. Done all the time in the video game industry. Beta testers. Nothing new.


Major car companies don't go into racing to sell a 4 door sedan. They do it to gain a reputation of being a leader and developing their vehicles. Keeping them competitive.


I'm not sure how this all got started. but if advertised as ... (joes word)
"The Brassworks radiator was supposed to be built for my blower motor. I know it's 3 core, but that's about all I know technically. It's not an exact 35 replica, but a "street rod" version"


If it wasn't advertised (if it was), well this whole thread is stupid. Nothing is perfect in this world. If you sold hundreds or thousands of them to guys with blowers and this is the only one. Refund and walk away. I appreciate what your do and glad you make what you do. I won't have a blower flathead. So it doesn't effect your product in my mind.




.

[jrvariel48]

Originally Posted by Ronnieroadster

Joe what lousy a way to spend your summer. Experimenting and spending more money trying to fix a problem that's caused by a very poor quality radiator. What you just wrote about the support rod mount needing repair on a new radiator after only 10 miles that repair expense should have been covered by brassworks.
I can tell you when I experienced an issue with the radiator I received from CAR after many months of use. All they asked I do is have it fixed locally and submit the bill to them. Some company's are interested in service and future sales its obvious brassworks in not one of them.
Ronnieroadster

I know it's part of the hobby, but I would equate this situation to the crappy part of the hobby. I'll try the Flex puller fan and see what happens.

[jrvariel48]

Originally Posted by The Brassworks

Still not listening. Still not understanding.

High speed overheating is rarely a fan problem and more frequently trapped air which in your case is causing heat soak.

Twice I suggested you remove the shroud, mount the puller fan you have and get numbers. If it improves and you seek more cooling, position the SPAL fan pusher higher and the Cooling components puller fan lower to prevent the heat soak at 50-40 mph (and get more numbers). If you still want more cooling swap the Cooing components for a higher cfm SPAL fan.

We keep talking through this and you told me you would do this twice and you did not do it. You called cooling components and they told you to cut holes in the shroud to free air. You instead fixate on two fans and went on this forum to rant. You also want to buying fans with advertised cfms that likely come from a controlled lab environment and not the real world. Something we discussed and I thought you understood.

I can't help you if you won't listen and when you talk sh*t on this forum about me it makes me not want to. Apologies if this candor offends the delicate sensibilities of the forum.

I contacted the manufacturer to see if they had any input and they did. Their input didn't work so now I've removed the fan and shroud and I'll be installing a puller
My mom passed away last week from a long battle with dementia so I'm in the process of moving my father in with us and getting their house ready for sale. I also work two jobs so time is not very plentiful for me.
I get a couple of hours here and there and if the weather doesn't cooperate, I cant do any testing.
I do understand the cfm thing, but figured it would get me closer than the spal advertised 2024 cfm
We'll see. BTW, I'm not talking $hit, just relaying talking points

[jrvariel48]

Originally Posted by Ziggster

That’s a really interesting blade design. Never seen anything like it before. I’m not sure about the claims of slicing through the air easier as it has more surface area due to the rippled edge. Remember all these claims of airflow are at 0”H2O static pressure (i.e. no resistance). Those values are really meaningless as all real world scenarios involve some kind of resistance. What’s important is how much air will the fan will move at the corresponding resistance (pressure drop) across the radiator and any other obstructions. You’ll only know once you test it.

Totally understood

[jrvariel48]

Originally Posted by The Brassworks

The SPAL dimensions were all called out on the original order we sent. They're also online everywhere. Why would you be surprised. I offered to send you a fan for trial.

We also had an extensive conversation yesterday about fans and stated/advertised cfms and you elected to go with a flex-a-lite. You went your own way again.

I seriously cannot believe you.

Sorry, but I don't remember you offering me a test fan. You mention you thought you had one somewhere, but never said Hey Joe let me send you a test fan so we can figure this out. That was never said
There's a lot of pulleys and belts and nuts behind the radiator which I'm sure everyone's aware of. It's very hard for me to picture how it would fit.
When I had the CCI fan/shroud and radiator removed I slid a spal pusher in there and it fit. When I say fit I mean there's an 1/8 of an inch between the motor and the blower snout but it does fit

[jrvariel48]

Originally Posted by The Brassworks

Thanks for the advice.

We have been trying to help Joe but Joe won't help himself. We have tried from the start but Joe has not listened and won't listen. He has been on this forum ever for a purpose other than getting his engine temperature down 10 degrees.

Perhaps you do not see it but I do.

Pompously yours,

Lee

Joe is doing the best he can to figure this out. I have done everything you asked except buy a spal fan.
10 degrees is a factor with a blown engine and I only know that from the experience of the amazing people on this forum.

[sshep]

"The way we generally strive for rights is by getting our fighting blood up; and I venture to say that is the long way and not the short way. If you come at me with your fists doubled, I think I can promise you that mine will double as fast as yours; but if you come to me and say, “Let us sit down and take counsel together, and, if we differ from one another, understand why it is that we differ from one another, just what the points at issue are,” we will presently find that we are not so far apart after all, that the points on which we differ are few and the points on which we agree are many, and that if we only have the patience and the candor and the desire to get together, we will get together."


Woodrow Wilson

[jrvariel48]

Originally Posted by The Brassworks

Yes; it is a simple question. Perhaps I would have earlier but I will not now.

Joe was presented with a core and puller fan and specifically instructed me in writing to build the same core with a pusher because he "did not have room" for a puller.

Wrong again.
I never instructed anyone on what to build and simply told you I didn't have room for a puller. Once again, THAT DOES NOT MEAN I DONT HAVE ROOM FOR A LARGER CORE!!!


I did not measure this for him or dissuade him from buying a large core.

You also never asked

He has a large personality which I presume comes from competence; I will not make this mistake again. We made what he ordered and he wants to reduce his supercharged flathead 10 degrees at ~50-40mph. This can likely be done if Joe listened.

You never offered a larger core!
You never said So you're telling me you have no room for a puller fan, how much room do you have?
I know you have a blown Flathead and we all know Flatheads can run hot.
Let me use my experience to point you in the right direction
None of this happened so please don't say it did

Joe has not listened, he talks out both sides of his mouth and he has used this forum to disparage our product and me personally. This is an unregulated platform that stands forever and our business suffers from this. Joe knows this and people have made comments to this effect. Its an effective strategy for unprincipled people.

Sorry, but you got the wrong guy. When I spend money on a product I expect a little more than do this, try that, fix this, use this fan. I am trying everything you asked me to do.
wish this were the case and if this statement causes you to change your opinion of me or the company, I completely understand.

I also run a business and YES, the customer may not always be right, but we try to cater to them the best we can. We spend countless hours trying to get the details right including losing money if need be to make them happy

[jrvariel48]

Originally Posted by Bored&Stroked

I'm not one to tell anybody how to run their business, but was this comment really necessary? "Patience Princess"?

Talk about demeaning to somebody who is one of the best in the world of high-performance flatheads. Peeing on his shoes accomplished nothing of value for anybody.

PS: I just referred a very close personal friend to you today (to make a custom radiator for a vintage car) - so I wish you (and him) well. With that said, it is hard for us on the Barn to stomach your attitude on this specific conversation.

1) Fans, Fans, Fans: Explain to me how a better fan is going to help his cooling at cruise speed? All this talk about pushers/pullers, CFM this, CFM that - what the heck does it have to do with a car going down the road at 50 mph? I've yet to hear an explanation that is viable - so bring it to the table?

2) Why We're All on the Barn: The fact is that most everybody on this forum is here to HELP one another. None of us have all the answers - so we try to work through problems and seek out solutions. At the same time, this body of folks has more expertise on vintage flathead engines than any public place you'll find. Joe came here for help - he seems to be willing to work through issues . . . that is why we care about his problems and hope that a solution is found.

What we've not heard from you is the fact that MAYBE his radiator won't cool his engine . . . and that you're willing to work with him to sort it out. THAT would be good for Joe, good for Brassworks and we'd all say that "Lee is a solid dude and he compromised for the good of all". Wouldn't that be a good position to be in?

All we're hearing is that everything is Joe's fault . . . while he may not be perfect (none are), those of us with experience have reasonable suspicions about the ability of THIS particular radiator to cool his engine - regardless of any dang fan you put on it. If the core/capacity of the radiator is not up to the task - there is NOTHING that any fan will do to help it. So, WHAT can he do to figure out the basics? Me - I'd take ALL fans off and take the car on the road . . . remove those variables.

Work with him, work with us . . . let's get him a "cool car" going down the road.

What is so hard about finding a solution FIRST, then determining how best to pay for it.

B&S, Very well said and thank you for all your help and standing with me.
Thank you, Joe

[jrvariel48]

Originally Posted by Tinker

Maybe has spent too much time on twitter. Hearts and minds... not social media troll warfare.

"I'm not one to tell anybody how to run their business, but was this comment really necessary? "Patience Princess"?

Talk about demeaning to somebody who is one of the best in the world of high-performance flatheads. Peeing on his shoes accomplished nothing of value for anybody."


I'll give it to them for not running away. Discussion is good. i'm sure edelbrock has taken a few lumps over the years. Nor am I saying Vic never called anyone a princess. I couldn't possibly know that.


See how this plays out I guess.


Bored your last two sentences make a lot of sense. R&D and the company doesn't have to build the motor. Free testers and developers in real world situations. Done all the time in the video game industry. Beta testers. Nothing new.


Major car companies don't go into racing to sell a 4 door sedan. They do it to gain a reputation of being a leader and developing their vehicles. Keeping them competitive.


I'm not sure how this all got started. but if advertised as ... (joes word)
"The Brassworks radiator was supposed to be built for my blower motor. I know it's 3 core, but that's about all I know technically. It's not an exact 35 replica, but a "street rod" version"


If it wasn't advertised (if it was), well this whole thread is stupid. Nothing is perfect in this world. If you sold hundreds or thousands of them to guys with blowers and this is the only one. Refund and walk away. I appreciate what your do and glad you make what you do. I won't have a blower flathead. So it doesn't effect your product in my mind.




.

Tinker, I relied on the knowledge of the builder. All I'm saying is I told Lee I had a blown Flathead with no room for a puller fan. What he made for me as far as I'm concerned is not the radiator for this set up.
Let's see if this Flex-a-lite fan helps at all. If not we're unfortunately back to square one
Thanks Joe

[jrvariel48]

I just want to say thank you to everyone that's following this thread and supporting what it's all about.
I never claimed to be the smartest, most intellectual, well spoken guy. I don't have a quarter of experience as most here on the Barn.
I got into this hobby because I love cars, especially Flatheads
I don't want to create tension between people or hurt anyone's business or feelings.
I just want to drive my car.
Thanks again,
Joe

[The Brassworks]

Originally Posted by Bored&Stroked

I'm not one to tell anybody how to run their business, but was this comment really necessary? "Patience Princess"?

Talk about demeaning to somebody who is one of the best in the world of high-performance flatheads. Peeing on his shoes accomplished nothing of value for anybody.

PS: I just referred a very close personal friend to you today (to make a custom radiator for a vintage car) - so I wish you (and him) well. With that said, it is hard for us on the Barn to stomach your attitude on this specific conversation.

1) Fans, Fans, Fans: Explain to me how a better fan is going to help his cooling at cruise speed? All this talk about pushers/pullers, CFM this, CFM that - what the heck does it have to do with a car going down the road at 50 mph? I've yet to hear an explanation that is viable - so bring it to the table?

2) Why We're All on the Barn: The fact is that most everybody on this forum is here to HELP one another. None of us have all the answers - so we try to work through problems and seek out solutions. At the same time, this body of folks has more expertise on vintage flathead engines than any public place you'll find. Joe came here for help - he seems to be willing to work through issues . . . that is why we care about his problems and hope that a solution is found.

What we've not heard from you is the fact that MAYBE his radiator won't cool his engine . . . and that you're willing to work with him to sort it out. THAT would be good for Joe, good for Brassworks and we'd all say that "Lee is a solid dude and he compromised for the good of all". Wouldn't that be a good position to be in?

All we're hearing is that everything is Joe's fault . . . while he may not be perfect (none are), those of us with experience have reasonable suspicions about the ability of THIS particular radiator to cool his engine - regardless of any dang fan you put on it. If the core/capacity of the radiator is not up to the task - there is NOTHING that any fan will do to help it. So, WHAT can he do to figure out the basics? Me - I'd take ALL fans off and take the car on the road . . . remove those variables.

Work with him, work with us . . . let's get him a "cool car" going down the road.

What is so hard about finding a solution FIRST, then determining how best to pay for it.

Apologies for the Patience Princess response. I don't know Ronnieroadster other than his comments on this thread. I was in the middle of a phone call, typing and getting a payroll finalized. He was flaming on a forum and I should have just ignored him because his comment wasn't relevant.

Joe's principal concern is occurring at high speed e.g. 60mph and the recovery at 50-40 mph. I have said it and said it and said it again. It is not the fans that I suspect, its the shroud. The shroud manufacturer suspects the same because they recommended Joe remove the plastic trim core area blocking the core, raise the fan and vent the solid parts of the fan shroud. I go a step further and say remove the shroud entirely. You should keep a fan (puller recommended, pusher if you can't fit one) because you need it when you come of the highway and this is exactly where Joe is not recovering e.g. heat soaking. The absence a fan will create a problem at ~38-40 mph and below because of limited airflow. What I recommend regarding fans is maximizing cfm however, I am dubious of many of the claims made by electric fan manufacturers which is why I only recommend SPAL. He may get the cfm with his cooling components fan and no shroud or he may get there with the flex-a-lite puller or he may get there with a combination of a SPAL pusher and a puller. Its not the brand but the maximum cfm that matters at the speed where he is not recovering.

I have been working with Joe on the phone and messaging on instagram. Presently he is removing the fan and shroud and trying a different one. This removal of the fan I recommended but he is spending more money without gathering information first. This again is his decision.

The reason you don't hear me say its the radiator core is that he has not removed the shroud, what I suspect is the root of problem yet and provided numbers. Until he reports back, I can speak to the radiator and this engine .

The face area of a 1935 Ford radiator is ~379 square inches. A 1951 ford radiator face area is ~440 square inches and a 1951 Mercury is ~475. Joe's pairing of this engine to this radiator space sacrifices 14% - 20% of face area right out of the gate because of the engine - car design.

The core Joe ordered was thicker than the '51 but it has 90% of the cubic area of the '51 radiator and ~80% of '51 Mercury. The core he ordered also has has more tubes, better geometry of tube and a comparable fin density. In a nutshell, he is one step backward and a little bit forward but Joe also added heat demands with his supercharger and has "unknown" demands from tinkering with the engine timing, thermostats, fluid composition etc. Perhaps this is where Ronnieroadster can help him.

Joe and I discussed engine temperatures and ranges and Joe tells me he would accept a 200 degree top end on his 51 flathead with a supercharger. I think this is reasonable expectation and achievable. I know we all want 180 degrees all the time but the reality is engines operate at a range and the high and low end and both ends matter. It is also a reality that there are numerous engine temperatures on the engine so you may cause an undue concern based on where you take the temperature from. Settle down forum, I am not saying Joe's concern is undue. He is seeing 210 and wants 200. He is 10 degrees from being satisfied with his upper bound engine temperature and I think he can get there without a new core or buying more fans (which he keeps doing). I am also more interested in the 50-40mph temperatures because this will trigger recommendation 2, the addition of more cfm for recovery. Joe says he will not do this, again, his decision.

I think he's closer to his goal than he realizes but as told him, I don't think he is going to be a 180 degree flathead based on the pairing and mods he has made and he agreed.

[The Brassworks]

Originally Posted by jrvariel48

I just want to say thank you to everyone that's following this thread and supporting what it's all about.
I never claimed to be the smartest, most intellectual, well spoken guy. I don't have a quarter of experience as most here on the Barn.
I got into this hobby because I love cars, especially Flatheads
I don't want to create tension between people or hurt anyone's business or feelings.
I just want to drive my car.
Thanks again,
Joe

I just want to say thank you to everyone that's following this thread and supporting what it's all about.
I never claimed to be the smartest, most intellectual, well spoken guy. I don't have a quarter of experience as most here on the Barn.
I got into this hobby because I love cars, and have to feed my family
I don't want to create tension between people or hurt anyone's feelings.
I just want to survive the fordbarn forum
Thanks again,
Lee

[Bored&Stroked]

Hey Lee, just want to let you know that I appreciate the detailed response and also the fact that you had your feathers ruffled a bit and you've come back to the site of the "ruffling" and brought some positive and constructive thoughts/ideas.

In the end, that is what we're all here for and hopefully Joe can get his car cooling as it needs to cool. With a few more tests (changing one variable at a time), we'll all have a better understanding of the situation and what options he has to deal with it.

Also, the vast majority of us on this site are not here to flame anybody - we all have a likeminded passion and we're trying to help one another out. Also, we depend on a host of vendors to supply the parts/expertise we need to keep these old beasts on the road. That is about it . . . so you'll survive.

Take care,
B&S

[KiWinUS]

Great response both Lee and Dale #197 & #199
Let’s keep the positive dialogue going. Thanks.

[jrvariel48]

Originally Posted by The Brassworks

Apologies for the Patience Princess response. I don't know Ronnieroadster other than his comments on this thread. I was in the middle of a phone call, typing and getting a payroll finalized. He was flaming on a forum and I should have just ignored him because his comment wasn't relevant.

Joe's principal concern is occurring at high speed e.g. 60mph and the recovery at 50-40 mph. I have said it and said it and said it again. It is not the fans that I suspect, its the shroud. The shroud manufacturer suspects the same because they recommended Joe remove the plastic trim core area blocking the core, raise the fan and vent the solid parts of the fan shroud. I go a step further and say remove the shroud entirely. You should keep a fan (puller recommended, pusher if you can't fit one) because you need it when you come of the highway and this is exactly where Joe is not recovering e.g. heat soaking. The absence a fan will create a problem at ~38-40 mph and below because of limited airflow. What I recommend regarding fans is maximizing cfm however, I am dubious of many of the claims made by electric fan manufacturers which is why I only recommend SPAL. He may get the cfm with his cooling components fan and no shroud or he may get there with the flex-a-lite puller or he may get there with a combination of a SPAL pusher and a puller. Its not the brand but the maximum cfm that matters at the speed where he is not recovering.

I have been working with Joe on the phone and messaging on instagram. Presently he is removing the fan and shroud and trying a different one. This removal of the fan I recommended but he is spending more money without gathering information first. This again is his decision.

The reason you don't hear me say its the radiator core is that he has not removed the shroud, what I suspect is the root of problem yet and provided numbers. Until he reports back, I can speak to the radiator and this engine .

The face area of a 1935 Ford radiator is ~379 square inches. A 1951 ford radiator face area is ~440 square inches and a 1951 Mercury is ~475. Joe's pairing of this engine to this radiator space sacrifices 14% - 20% of face area right out of the gate because of the engine - car design.

The core Joe ordered was thicker than the '51 but it has 90% of the cubic area of the '51 radiator and ~80% of '51 Mercury. The core he ordered also has has more tubes, better geometry of tube and a comparable fin density. In a nutshell, he is one step backward and a little bit forward but Joe also added heat demands with his supercharger and has "unknown" demands from tinkering with the engine timing, thermostats, fluid composition etc. Perhaps this is where Ronnieroadster can help him.

Joe and I discussed engine temperatures and ranges and Joe tells me he would accept a 200 degree top end on his 51 flathead with a supercharger. I think this is reasonable expectation and achievable. I know we all want 180 degrees all the time but the reality is engines operate at a range and the high and low end and both ends matter. It is also a reality that there are numerous engine temperatures on the engine so you may cause an undue concern based on where you take the temperature from. Settle down forum, I am not saying Joe's concern is undue. He is seeing 210 and wants 200. He is 10 degrees from being satisfied with his upper bound engine temperature and I think he can get there without a new core or buying more fans (which he keeps doing). I am also more interested in the 50-40mph temperatures because this will trigger recommendation 2, the addition of more cfm for recovery. Joe says he will not do this, again, his decision.

I think he's closer to his goal than he realizes but as told him, I don't think he is going to be a 180 degree flathead based on the pairing and mods he has made and he agreed.

Now this is where we should be! I have removed the CCI fan/shroud and I'm awaiting the puller fan. Looks like rain tomorrow, but hopefully I can get that fan in, whenever it gets here, and well go from there.
I don't drive my car when it's about 80 degrees outside, Usually just an hour ride on Sunday mornings with my daughter. She's special needs and absolutely LOVES the sound and feel of the car she happily calls "Big Fat Bubba"!!
Thank you Lee

[jrvariel48]

Originally Posted by sshep

"The way we generally strive for rights is by getting our fighting blood up; and I venture to say that is the long way and not the short way. If you come at me with your fists doubled, I think I can promise you that mine will double as fast as yours; but if you come to me and say, “Let us sit down and take counsel together, and, if we differ from one another, understand why it is that we differ from one another, just what the points at issue are,” we will presently find that we are not so far apart after all, that the points on which we differ are few and the points on which we agree are many, and that if we only have the patience and the candor and the desire to get together, we will get together."


Woodrow Wilson

Amazing words spoken by a man MUCH smarter than me!!

[jrvariel48]

Originally Posted by The Brassworks

I just want to say thank you to everyone that's following this thread and supporting what it's all about.
I never claimed to be the smartest, most intellectual, well spoken guy. I don't have a quarter of experience as most here on the Barn.
I got into this hobby because I love cars, and have to feed my family
I don't want to create tension between people or hurt anyone's feelings.
I just want to survive the fordbarn forum
Thanks again,
Lee

I believe you have survived!! Welcome!

[jrvariel48]

Originally Posted by Bored&Stroked

Hey Lee, just want to let you know that I appreciate the detailed response and also the fact that you had your feathers ruffled a bit and you've come back to the site of the "ruffling" and brought some positive and constructive thoughts/ideas.

In the end, that is what we're all here for and hopefully Joe can get his car cooling as it needs to cool. With a few more tests (changing one variable at a time), we'll all have a better understanding of the situation and what options he has to deal with it.

Also, the vast majority of us on this site are not here to flame anybody - we all have a likeminded passion and we're trying to help one another out. Also, we depend on a host of vendors to supply the parts/expertise we need to keep these old beasts on the road. That is about it . . . so you'll survive.

Take care,
B&S

I'm excited to get this done, believe me!

[jrvariel48]

Originally Posted by KiWinUS

Great response both Lee and Dale #197 & #199
Let’s keep the positive dialogue going. Thanks.

Hey! What about me?? I said sorry first HAHAHAHAH!!
Thanks KiWi

[KiWinUS]

Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)

Originally Posted by jrvariel48

Hey! What about me?? I said sorry first HAHAHAHAH!!
Thanks KiWi

Joe. You come first and foremost here!!!!
Thanks for letting us all feel like we are involved. Cheers
Tony

[jrvariel48]

Originally Posted by KiWinUS

Joe. You come first and foremost here!!!!
Thanks for letting us all feel like we are involved. Cheers
Tony

Lol! Thanks Tony, now I feel special! Thank you, Joe

[jrvariel48]

I mounted the fan and put everything back together last night.
I'm hoping to start the car and get testing later today.

[jrvariel48]

OK so I started and drove the car today. I didn't get a lot of set time, but here's what I have.
81 degrees 45% humidity Party sunny
10% propylene glycol and 90% tap water
Fan on, started car and let idle. About 3 minutes running & temp gauge went to 210*
T-stats opened and temp dropped to 170*
Heat gun showed 160* at top tank and 120* bottom tank
Temp gauge in head showed 175* at water neck and 160* at water pump.
I drove the back roads doing 20-30 and 30-40 mph for about 10 minutes and temp went to 180*
Got on the high way and drove 50-65 for only 5 minutes and temp went to 190*
Took back roads home and the temp stayed at 190*
Pulled in the driveway and let it idle to get some readings
I had 188* at top tank and 178* at bottom tank.
Head gauge showed 195* and water pump gauge showed 185*
This is definitely better than before!
I used a cheap anemometer to get some air readings. If any of you have experience with an anemometer
I'd like to know if I'm using properly and doing my calculations correctly


I'm sure Lee would be able to help with the following numbers and procedure.


The fan is a 16" puller Flex-a-lite Flex-wave #238 with 3000 advertised cfm.
It's mounted close to the bottom of the top tank.
I got a low reading of 1215 FPM and a high of 1929 FPM
I converted FPM to CFM as I found on an online calculator.
I used square inches for the fan area 16X16=256 square inches I chose this measurement, but I'm wondering if I should use the entire radiator square inches. I don't think that would be the way to go because the fan is not pulling over the entire radiator.
I came up with 2146 cfm on the low end and 3407 cfm on the high end.
This is through the radiator. Being that the advertised cfm is 3000, I doubt very much my numbers are correct.
I could also try different wind measurements

[ford38v8]

You don’t mention the bottom front radiator pan. You had previously agreed to install it but never followed up on that.

[Angledrive]

Can you shut the electric fan off while driving over 35mph?

[jrvariel48]

Originally Posted by ford38v8

You don’t mention the bottom front radiator pan. You had previously agreed to install it but never followed up on that.

Sorry the grille and lower pan are still not on

[jrvariel48]

Originally Posted by Angledrive

Can you shut the electric fan off while driving over 35mph?

Yes I can It’s on a switch I can certainly try that

[ford38v8]

Originally Posted by jrvariel48

Sorry the grille and lower pan are still not on

All your temp readings are meaningless until you have configured the directional air flow components as the car was designed to have.

[rich b]

Wonder how much the lower grille pan on a '35 does as it pretty much all slots?

[Ziggster]

Originally Posted by jrvariel48

OK so I started and drove the car today. I didn't get a lot of set time, but here's what I have.
81 degrees 45% humidity Party sunny
10% propylene glycol and 90% tap water
Fan on, started car and let idle. About 3 minutes running & temp gauge went to 210*
T-stats opened and temp dropped to 170*
Heat gun showed 160* at top tank and 120* bottom tank
Temp gauge in head showed 175* at water neck and 160* at water pump.
I drove the back roads doing 20-30 and 30-40 mph for about 10 minutes and temp went to 180*
Got on the high way and drove 50-65 for only 5 minutes and temp went to 190*
Took back roads home and the temp stayed at 190*
Pulled in the driveway and let it idle to get some readings
I had 188* at top tank and 178* at bottom tank.
Head gauge showed 195* and water pump gauge showed 185*
This is definitely better than before!
I used a cheap anemometer to get some air readings. If any of you have experience with an anemometer
I'd like to know if I'm using properly and doing my calculations correctly


I'm sure Lee would be able to help with the following numbers and procedure.


The fan is a 16" puller Flex-a-lite Flex-wave #238 with 3000 advertised cfm.
It's mounted close to the bottom of the top tank.
I got a low reading of 1215 FPM and a high of 1929 FPM
I converted FPM to CFM as I found on an online calculator.
I used square inches for the fan area 16X16=256 square inches I chose this measurement, but I'm wondering if I should use the entire radiator square inches. I don't think that would be the way to go because the fan is not pulling over the entire radiator.
I came up with 2146 cfm on the low end and 3407 cfm on the high end.
This is through the radiator. Being that the advertised cfm is 3000, I doubt very much my numbers are correct.
I could also try different wind measurements

Not sure I follow as you mention 16” dia fan, but calculate the area as 16”x16” = 256 in square (area for 16” dia circle = 200 in sq). You will not be able to obtain any reliable actual airflow numbers without the fan being ducted over a length equivalent to a certain number of fan diameters (I’ve forgotten the formula). Certainly do not measure the airflow after the fan as it will be way too turbulent. Your best bet if you are still inclined is to meaure airflow over the area in front of the radiator in a grid like pattern so that at most you can compare readings with different configurations. Make a simple cardboard duct with the same dimensions as whatever the fan shroud is on the other side. Line up the duct with the shroud on the other side. Poke holes in the cardboard to stick the anemometer through for consistency, and if it is a probe type, insert it in at different depths. Again, this would just be for comparison purposes an not for absolute measurements. Does Brassworks have any airflow vs pressure drop data for their radiators or specifically the one you have as it would help determine how much airflow a given fan might pull/push, but of course you would need the corresponding curve from the fan manufacturer.
Not to dissuade you as I myself find all this super interesting as an engineer, but you’re really getting into borderline engineering testing/prototyping, which then needs to be done IAW accepted standards if you really are determined to measure absolute airflow values.

[Tinker]

Seems like things are moving forward. That's good. Even if it doesn't work.

[jrvariel48]

Originally Posted by ford38v8

All your temp readings are meaningless until you have configured the directional air flow components as the car was designed to have.

I can put it back on this weekend.

[jrvariel48]

Originally Posted by rich b

Wonder how much the lower grille pan on a '35 does as it pretty much all slots?

I'm hoping it does something!

[jrvariel48]

Originally Posted by Ziggster

Not sure I follow as you mention 16” dia fan, but calculate the area as 16”x16” = 256 in square (area for 16” dia circle = 200 in sq). You will not be able to obtain any reliable actual airflow numbers without the fan being ducted over a length equivalent to a certain number of fan diameters (I’ve forgotten the formula). Certainly do not measure the airflow after the fan as it will be way too turbulent. Your best bet if you are still inclined is to meaure airflow over the area in front of the radiator in a grid like pattern so that at most you can compare readings with different configurations. Make a simple cardboard duct with the same dimensions as whatever the fan shroud is on the other side. Line up the duct with the shroud on the other side. Poke holes in the cardboard to stick the anemometer through for consistency, and if it is a probe type, insert it in at different depths. Again, this would just be for comparison purposes an not for absolute measurements. Does Brassworks have any airflow vs pressure drop data for their radiators or specifically the one you have as it would help determine how much airflow a given fan might pull/push, but of course you would need the corresponding curve from the fan manufacturer.
Not to dissuade you as I myself find all this super interesting as an engineer, but you’re really getting into borderline engineering testing/prototyping, which then needs to be done IAW accepted standards if you really are determined to measure absolute airflow values.

Wow Ziggster That's impressive!! I didn't realize what really needed to be done to get number info. I was trying to see what I was getting on this fan in a simple way incase I had to change it and try a different fan.
I guess what I'm trying to do is not useful info if it's not complete and done properly. Thanks Joe

[jrvariel48]

Originally Posted by Tinker

Seems like things are moving forward. That's good. Even if it doesn't work.

I agree Tinker, I think I'm on the right track

[Bored&Stroked]

Well, it sure does seem to be a lot better than before - that is great news. I would beat it up on the highway a bit (try to pull a hill or someplace where you can put some load on it) and see how the temps register.

Seems the issues might be related to an air-flow restriction on the shroud.

[The Brassworks]

Removing the fan shroud helped the air get out and your temperature dropped by 15 to 25 degrees bringing you ~15 degrees below your upper bound target. You're reporting a radiator temperature drop of 40 degrees. Keep testing.

Recommendations

• The fan is mounted close to the top header. It should as high as possible to maximize heat exchange.

• The lower panel should be added. ford38v8 and Rich B mentioned the louvers but I would add most of pan is it is solid and it does direct airflow to the core. There should be no downside. You could tape over the louvers temporarily to see if a solid pan helps.

• Greater cfm will help at the lower driving speeds and idle. You bought a flex-a-lite and had success but I still believe SPAL provides the best performance available.

[jrvariel48]

Originally Posted by Bored&Stroked

Well, it sure does seem to be a lot better than before - that is great news. I would beat it up on the highway a bit (try to pull a hill or someplace where you can put some load on it) and see how the temps register.

Seems the issues might be related to an air-flow restriction on the shroud.

I'm hoping to get it out this weekend and do just that!!

[jrvariel48]

Originally Posted by The Brassworks

Removing the fan shroud helped the air get out and your temperature dropped by 15 to 25 degrees bringing you ~15 degrees below your upper bound target. You're reporting a radiator temperature drop of 40 degrees. Keep testing.

Recommendations

• The fan is mounted close to the top header. It should as high as possible to maximize heat exchange.

It is right under the top tank

• The lower panel should be added. ford38v8 and Rich B mentioned the louvers but I would add most of pan is it is solid and it does direct airflow to the core. There should be no downside. You could tape over the louvers temporarily to see if a solid pan helps.

I added the grille and lower pan today for testing.

• Greater cfm will help at the lower driving speeds and idle. You bought a flex-a-lite and had success but I still believe SPAL provides the best performance available.

If it keeps the motor temp where I need it, I'll be happy. Knowing the size and what will fit, a Spal could always be installed.
It's pretty quiet also.

[FlatheadTed]

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to late

[jrvariel48]

It looks like the vents on the lower pan allow some air to go straight through, but mostly on an upwards angle towards the lower part of the motor. The very top of the pan is on a slight upward angle towards the bottom of the radiator.
Let's see how it help as I didn't change anything else.
If all is good, I'll try going back to the 40/60 mix of ethylene glycol and distilled water.

[jrvariel48]

I did 2 tests today with the same results

Test 1

85 degrees 42% humidity Sunny, Grill with lower pan
I let it idle for 8 minutes. T-stats opened at about 6 minutes in.
Temp reached 170* and stayed there.

So I'm clear as to where I'm pointing the laser thermometer.
Top tank-On the back of the tank right next to the inlet.

Bottom tank-Aiming down in between the outlet and the radiator hose.
I don't know if these are the best two spots, so someone please fill me in if they're not.
It's hard to point directly at the bottom tank.

My in-car temp gauge said 170*, laser temp at was top tank at 160*, lower tank 130* and the gauge on the head read 170* and gauge on the water pump read 165*.

When I say say water pump gauge, I have a gauge mounted into the heater hose that's coming off the water pump about 10" from the water pump bung.

My guess that the bottom tank temp(130*) and the gauge in the water pump(165*) are different because the coolant is entering the system and heating up there?? Anyone?

I start to drive around town with starts and stops and speeds up to 35 mph.
Temp rise to 190* and bounces between 185* and 190*.

Get onto the high way at 60 mph and I creep up to 200 then 205 degrees. That was about 30 minutes into running at idle, back road driving and highway.

I was on the high way for 7 minutes at 55-65 mph.

When I got off the high way temp was at 205* As I drove stop and go the temp dropped to 200* and then 190*
Low speed seems to be better as it was before.

At 49 minutes in, I pulled back into the driveway to let it idle for a little bit.

In-car gauge read 200*, Top tank read 195*, bottom tank read 170*, head gauge read 200* and water pump gauge read 185*

Test 2

I fashioned a scoop made of cardboard (from a pizza box) and followed the slight angle of the top of the lower pan where it meets the first row of fins on the radiator into the back of the grill right on top of the crank hole. I held it in with a couple of small clips.

It was now 86 degrees outside

I did the same route as before with NO noticeable difference in temperature.

I'm all ears!

[jrvariel48]

Does anyone agree that ethylene glycol may help in this situation?
I still have a 5 gallon bucket of 40% ethylene glycol and 60% distilled water

[flatjack9]

No.

[cadillac512]

Originally Posted by jrvariel48

Does anyone agree that ethylene glycol may help in this situation?
I still have a 5 gallon bucket of 40% ethylene glycol and 60% distilled water

No-- the glycol/water mix at 40/60 won't exchange heat as readily as the mostly-water mix you have been testing with. It'll boil at a higher temp but that's not the same thing as cooling more efficiently.



Terry

[jrvariel48]

Thank you flatjack9 and cadillac512.

[jrvariel48]

Now for a question on overflow tanks. Here's what I'm reading:

Criscuolo says that the 12-percent and 6-percent (of your system capacity) numbers are added together to give you the required expansion tank size. “I’ll give you an example,” he explains. “Let’s say you have a 13-quart system capacity in your vehicle now after you added a power adder, and you set up your cooling system how you want and know where you want your expansion tank placed. At 12-percent drawdown, you would need 1.56 quarts, and for the thermal expansion, you would need 0.78 quart, which will equate to 2.34-quarts. That’s the smallest size you can get by with for your system, and that’s how it should be calculated for any size system.”

Would this apply to mt pressurized system?

If this is the case, I know my tank is way to small at 20 ounces.

Is it possible I'm overflowing on to the highway when the coolant heats up and expands?

Could that also introduce air into the system?

If I have a 20 quart system, I would need a tank that's 115.2 ounces? Does that make sense?

[cadillac512]

The first thing to know in this situation is: When the coolant level in the radiator is checked after the engine has cooled,is the radiator completely full to the cap? At that time is there still some liquid in the expansion tank as well? If so, your tank is doing its job and you needn't worry. If you were losing coolant you'd soon empty the tank and the radiator wouldn't be completely full to the cap after cooling off.

The recommended tank size seems large to me. In my experience the required size can be quite a bit less.



Terry

[jrvariel48]

Originally Posted by cadillac512

The first thing to know in this situation is: When the coolant level in the radiator is checked after the engine has cooled,is the radiator completely full to the cap? At that time is there still some liquid in the expansion tank as well? If so, your tank is doing its job and you needn't worry. If you were losing coolant you'd soon empty the tank and the radiator wouldn't be completely full to the cap after cooling off.

The recommended tank size seems large to me. In my experience the required size can be quite a bit less.



Terry

My expansion tank is always empty after it cools. The filler neck is on the back of the tank towards the bottom so unless the top tank is completely empty I'll see coolant
I don't know if that's making a difference or not, but I'd sure like to rule that out as a possible problem. I don't know how low I am, it's hard to tell without a top of tank cap to actually look and see. I also wonder about air getting back into the system because the tank is running out of coolant to return.

[cadillac512]

Ah, I understand. As long as the core is covered any air should stay in the top tank above the coolant, and not cause trouble or affect the cooling. However, that catch can shouldn't be empty. It has to either have a leak of some kind or be filling and overflowing the catch can while driving to do that. Maybe a temporary larger can would be a good test. It can be mounted anywhere there's room.

[jrvariel48]

Originally Posted by cadillac512

Ah, I understand. As long as the core is covered any air should stay in the top tank above the coolant, and not cause trouble or affect the cooling. However, that catch can shouldn't be empty. It has to either have a leak of some kind or be filling and overflowing the catch can while driving to do that. Maybe a temporary larger can would be a good test. It can be mounted anywhere there's room.

My thoughts exactly! I’ll make a plastic overflow tank. I might even have an old washer fluid tank that I can convert

[jrvariel48]

Took a ride yesterday with the same results. 78 degrees, 42% humidity sunny
Temp stayed around 190 for the first 10 minutes of back road driving.
Up to 205 on the highway for 15 minutes.
Back to 190 on back roads.
I actually turned the fan off for about 10 minutes of 35-45 mph driving with no temp change and kept the fan off for 15 minutes at 55-65 with not change.

[KiWinUS]

I personally don’t believe that’s how I want one of my engines. Too hot on freeway. Your engine could drive cross country but not at that temp. On verge of too hot. No room for 100+* ambient. Or trash on grille. 78* ambient temp I wouldn’t want over 180-190* highway and driving around town with room for stop n go traffic

[jrvariel48]

Originally Posted by KiWinUS

I personally don’t believe that’s how I want one of my engines. Too hot on freeway. Your engine could drive cross country but not at that temp. On verge of too hot. No room for 100+* ambient. Or trash on grille. 78* ambient temp I wouldn’t want over 180-190* highway and driving around town with room for stop n go traffic

I agree KiWinUS and I'm running out of things to try out. I'm going to try the larger overflow tank for $hits and giggles just to rule it out. After that, I'm at a lose

[B-O-B]

Have you checked out the RMI-25 site. it may help.

[jrvariel48]

Originally Posted by B-O-B

Have you checked out the RMI-25 site. it may help.

Checking now

[jrvariel48]

Originally Posted by B-O-B

Have you checked out the RMI-25 site. it may help.

B-O-B,
It seems like it's more helpful for a rusty system. My motor only has a few thousands miles on it with new pumps, hoses, heater core and radiator. With all the different coolants and mixtures I've tried, I drained the system at least 10 times and never saw any rust. I did however order a bottle and I'm willing to give it a try. The 15 bucks won't kill me.
At this point, I don't think it could harm anything.
I'd like to hear from anyone an the barn that's using this product. I'll post results either way.
Thanks Joe

[cadillac512]

Quote: "I agree KiWinUS and I'm running out of things to try out. I'm going to try the larger overflow tank for $hits and giggles just to rule it out. After that, I'm at a lose"




Actually the next step in diagnosing the problem is to reinstall the cheap Ebay aluminum radiator. If it cools better, then....you know.



Terry

[B-O-B]

I run it in 2 flatheads & 350 in the desert of AZ & haven't been towed yet !!!

[tubman]

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What happened to the aluminum radiator that cooled the car adequately?

[Angledrive]

Like Denny said go back to the aluminum radiator with no other change and see what happens

[banditomerc]

So did you reinstall the aluminum radiator yet?

[Tinker]

I'll give it to you for persistence. Most would have given up.


Custom engine, custom cooling. Everything must work in concert. Nothing is an island.


Not sure what the motor cost but you might be able to find a rad shop that will build you a rad with all the original mounting components and look with an large aluminum core.


Beyond my paygrade.

[FlatheadTed]

Just my 2 cents .We changed a customers 38 std to a mercury motor he came back after driving a bit complaining of overheating , on the old motor he had a 11" pusher fan outside and a alternator to power it .I suggested he best get rid of the alternator and fit the Ford stock fan and Generator back on .I then added the largest 12 volt pusher fan on the front i that i could find , we drove that with a 6 volt /12 V conversion regulator ,We added a shroud around the stock fan (not like the one depicted here ) needs to be designed correctly ,Now the customer rarely turns on the electric fan , I think with a electric fan you get air block at high speed ,a stock fan running of the motor speeds up as the motor does and moves more air ,at high speed it will pull more air through as it speeds up than just having a electric one that just has air bouncing of the front of the grill , ,a efficient fan system will enhance a lower performing radiator ,I have experimented with all this on several cars .A electric fan stays at one speed were a mechanical fan speeds up as the engine speeds up .do it as Henry did fan and shroud ,Sorry not knocking any one this just worked for me , ,As said a four row or aluminum core can work to

[jrvariel48]

Originally Posted by tubman

What happened to the aluminum radiator that cooled the car adequately?

I still have it. The problem is it looks like crap. It's one of those ebay china specials. It doesn't bolt right in either. I had to make a lot of brackets to make it fit properly. It did work, but it was only installed while the current radiator was being built.

[jrvariel48]

Originally Posted by Angledrive

Like Denny said go back to the aluminum radiator with no other change and see what happens

I may have to do just that.

[jrvariel48]

Originally Posted by cadillac512

Quote: "I agree KiWinUS and I'm running out of things to try out. I'm going to try the larger overflow tank for $hits and giggles just to rule it out. After that, I'm at a lose"




Actually the next step in diagnosing the problem is to reinstall the cheap Ebay aluminum radiator. If it cools better, then....you know.



Terry

This seems to be the consensus!

[jrvariel48]

Originally Posted by banditomerc

So did you reinstall the aluminum radiator yet?

Lol, not yet

[jrvariel48]

Originally Posted by FlatheadTed

Just my 2 cents .We changed a customers 38 std to a mercury motor he came back after driving a bit complaining of overheating on the old motor he had a 11" pusher fan outside and a alternator to power it .I suggested he best get rid of the alternator and fit the Ford stock fan and Generator back on .I then added the largest 12 volt pusher fan on the front i that i could find , we drove that with a 6 volt /12 V conversion regulator ,We added a shroud around the stock fan (not like the one depicted here ) needs to be designed correctly ,Now the customer rarely turns on the electric fan , I think with a electric fan you get air block at high speed ,a stock fan running of the motor speeds up as the motor does and moves more air ,at high speed it will pull more air through as it speeds up than just having a electric one that just has air bouncing of the front of the grill , ,a efficient fan system will enhance a lower performing radiator ,I have experimented with all this on several cars .A electric fan stays at one speed were a mechanical fan speeds up as the engine speeds up .do it as Henry did fan and shroud ,Sorry not knocking any one this just worked for me , ,As said a four row or aluminum core can work to

Problem here is I can't run a stock fam. There's just no room with the blower snout and idler pulley.

[jrvariel48]

Originally Posted by Tinker

I'll give it to you for persistence. Most would have given up.


Custom engine, custom cooling. Everything must work in concert. Nothing is an island.


Not sure what the motor cost but you might be able to find a rad shop that will build you a rad with all the original mounting components and look with an large aluminum core.


Beyond my paygrade.

All true, and I have a bunch in the motor believe me.

[jrvariel48]

Could my current radiator get fitted with an aluminum core?

Does the entire radiator need to be aluminum?

[cadillac512]

Originally Posted by jrvariel48

Could my current radiator get fitted with an aluminum core?

Does the entire radiator need to be aluminum?

I don't believe so, since the brass tanks need to seal to the core headers and solder's not going to work. Aluminum cores are normally welded to aluminum tanks or crimped with gaskets to plastic tanks.
However, you may be able to get a better, higher capacity copper core installed to your tanks. Nothing better than a quality, properly sized copper core with correct tube count, spacing, and fin count. $$ though (again ).


Terry

[jrvariel48]

Originally Posted by cadillac512

I don't believe so, since the brass tanks need to seal to the core headers and solder's not going to work. Aluminum cores are normally welded to aluminum tanks or crimped with gaskets to plastic tanks.
However, you may be able to get a better, higher capacity copper core installed to your tanks. Nothing better than a quality, properly sized copper core with correct tube count, spacing, and fin count. $$ though (again ).


Terry

OK thanks for that information. If that's what I need to do...

[Bored&Stroked]

I too believe that 205 degrees is too hot - given the short amount of driving you did. Also, you really weren't under any heavy load (that you said) and it wasn't 100 degrees out.

If it was mine, I'd give Brassworks another try and see if Lee can meet you 1/2 way - to put in a bigger core and lower the temp another 10 degrees or so. Even though you have a pressurized radiator, the higher the heat of the engine, the more chances for detonation (especially with a blower) - and detonation is bad JuJu for an engine.

While this is a big an expensive pain in the butt - it is the right direction to head. I'd also much rather run a quality copper core radiator than an aluminum one -- for aesthetics and longevity.

[jrvariel48]

Originally Posted by Bored&Stroked

I too believe that 205 degrees is too hot - given the short amount of driving you did. Also, you really weren't under any heavy load (that you said) and it wasn't 100 degrees out.

If it was mine, I'd give Brassworks another try and see if Lee can meet you 1/2 way - to put in a bigger core and lower the temp another 10 degrees or so. Even though you have a pressurized radiator, the higher the heat of the engine, the more chances for detonation (especially with a blower) - and detonation is bad JuJu for an engine.

While this is a big an expensive pain in the butt - it is the right direction to head. I'd also much rather run a quality copper core radiator than an aluminum one -- for aesthetics and longevity.

I agree 100%. I don't want detonation! Let's see if Lee wants to work with me. It might be best to have that work done locally to save on shipping etc. Maybe he's willing to kick in. He never kicked in for the repair that was needed with less than 10 miles in the radiator so I seriously doubt it.

[jrvariel48]

I installed a larger overflow tank today to rule out a possible problem of losing coolant out of the smaller tank I had. It' a crude plastic bottle, but it'll serve the purpose.
I know, I know it's not going to do anything, but I have to try. If anything, maybe we'll get some good info out of this post.

[Angledrive]

Please, take the time and effort to reinstall the aluminum radiator without any other changes and see if it lowers the temp. If it does then you can let Lee know that his radiator is the issue.

[flatjack9]

I'm curious. Does the blower really come in to play under your present normal driving conditions, i. e. cruise?

[jrvariel48]

Originally Posted by flatjack9

I'm curious. Does the blower really come in to play under your present normal driving conditions, i. e. cruise?

I really don't think so. I only get the boost up when I get onto the high way and that's short lived. Most of the time is just high way or backroad cruising between 35-65 mph depending on traffic. I know it does rob horsepower just to spin the blower, how much I don't know. On the top fuel cars that are producing 11,000 horsepower, it takes close to 1000 hp to drive the blower!
I know my timing is slightly retarded at cruise with the blower because I don't have a boost timing module to pull it out.

[jrvariel48]

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Originally Posted by Angledrive

Please, take the time and effort to reinstall the aluminum radiator without any other changes and see if it lowers the temp. If it does then you can let Lee know that his radiator is the issue.

That's going to be my next step. I want to try the overflow tank for the heck of it, then I was planning on taking the radiator out and putting the China Special back in.

[FlatheadTed]

Retarded timing ?? ,how much ,give use a figure

[flatjack9]

Originally Posted by jrvariel48

I really don't think so. I only get the boost up when I get onto the high way and that's short lived. Most of the time is just high way or backroad cruising between 35-65 mph depending on traffic. I know it does rob horsepower just to spin the blower, how much I don't know. On the top fuel cars that are producing 11,000 horsepower, it takes close to 1000 hp to drive the blower!
I know my timing is slightly retarded at cruise with the blower because I don't have a boost timing module to pull it out.

Why not bump the timing up where it should be for cruising and see if the temp comes down. Just don't romp on it.

[jrvariel48]

Originally Posted by FlatheadTed

Retarded timing ?? ,how much ,give use a figure

12* initial and 21* total @2200rpm

[jrvariel48]

Originally Posted by flatjack9

Why not bump the timing up where it should be for cruising and see if the temp comes down. Just don't romp on it.

I'm at 21* total right now. I'm not sure how much cooler it would run at say 24-26*

[cadillac512]

My bet is not much if any. 21 is pretty good and likely very little will be realized by going higher. I've not seen any difference on mine.


My 2 cents on the blower...At your cruising speed of 55-60 mph that blower is making very little boost and thus takes very little power to turn, which means it adds very little heat load. Wide open throttle and 5000 rpm would be a whole different story.



Just my thoughts from 50 years of being in business as a mechanic and engine builder. Learned a lot the hard way for sure!


Terry (betting the old alum rad will fix it )

[flatjack9]

Originally Posted by jrvariel48

I'm at 21* total right now. I'm not sure how much cooler it would run at say 24-26*

Easy to find out. I'd go for at least 26.

[jrvariel48]

Originally Posted by cadillac512

My bet is not much if any. 21 is pretty good and likely very little will be realized by going higher. I've not seen any difference on mine.


My 2 cents on the blower...At your cruising speed of 55-60 mph that blower is making very little boost and thus takes very little power to turn, which means it adds very little heat load. Wide open throttle and 5000 rpm would be a whole different story.



Just my thoughts from 50 years of being in business as a mechanic and engine builder. Learned a lot the hard way for sure!


Terry (betting the old alum rad will fix it )

So at 60 mph in 5th gear, I’m at 2500 rpm and 10 inches of vacuum. No boost at all. I really don’t see boost until I mash the throttle and the rpm’s come up.

[40cpe]

Just curious, but I wonder if the blower could be adding a little air to the engine to reduce your vacuum at cruise. My 276" naturally aspirated runs 17" at cruise. It has a 278 degree cam (L100).

[jrvariel48]

Could leaking head studs be a sign of a head gasket problem? I tried many times to remove, clean and replace each one using all different types of sealants and a couple still leak! Just wondering if I have a problem that could be causing the high temps. I did the liquid test to look for hydrocarbons and it came up clean. I don’t know if that test is 100%

[Bored&Stroked]

Head studs will commonly leak if they were NOT sealed correctly when installed (has nothing to do with the blower).

I use a liquid stud-sealer from ARP. Even with that, sometimes I'll see a few that will weep a bit before they usually seal themselves. It isn't a bad idea to run a batch of Morose 'Ceramic Seal' through the engine after it is first built - helps seal up some of these pesky studs.

Typically, if you have a blown head-gasket, it will get worse (especially with boost) and you'll start puking combustion gasses into the radiator or water out the exhaust ports . . . or some combination of both. If it gets bad, you'll see your plugs getting "washed down" and may even blow water out a spark plug hole if you pull them. You definitely don't want a head-gasket problem - as it can also hydraulic the motor if a bunch of water gets into a cylinder.

The usual test is to get the engine hot, then come back and pull the radiator cap and see if you are getting bubbles coming up through the coolant. With that said - be careful opening up a hot radiator (especially if under pressure).

Good luck!

[jrvariel48]

Originally Posted by Bored&Stroked

Head studs will commonly leak if they were NOT sealed correctly when installed (has nothing to do with the blower).

I use a liquid stud-sealer from ARP. Even with that, sometimes I'll see a few that will weep a bit before they usually seal themselves. It isn't a bad idea to run a batch of Morose 'Ceramic Seal' through the engine after it is first built - helps seal up some of these pesky studs.

I guess I missed that opportunity!

Typically, if you have a blown head-gasket, it will get worse (especially with boost) and you'll start puking combustion gasses into the radiator or water out the exhaust ports . . . or some combination of both. If it gets bad, you'll see your plugs getting "washed down" and may even blow water out a spark plug hole if you pull them. You definitely don't want a head-gasket problem - as it can also hydraulic the motor if a bunch of water gets into a cylinder.

In that case I seem to be ok.

The usual test is to get the engine hot, then come back and pull the radiator cap and see if you are getting bubbles coming up through the coolant. With that said - be careful opening up a hot radiator (especially if under pressure).

I did perform that test when I had the filler funnel attached to the filler neck and no bubbles appeared!

Good luck!

As usual, thank you for responding, it really helps and I appreciate it very much.
Joe

[jrvariel48]

I ran the car today just long enough to get it to about 200 degrees. The larger overflow tank I temporarily installed did fill up and I wouldn't say violently, but it seemed to be pretty forceful. I think maybe there was some air in the system from the last time it cooled down and the tank went empty.
I would image, if that's the case, that air went through the system and that was purging that I saw.
I won't know if this will help anything until I get a chance to take it for a full ride. Looks like we have some rain coming this weekend in Jersey, so we'll se how it goes. I'll post results as soon as I can
Thanks Joe

[jrvariel48]

Originally Posted by B-O-B

I run it in 2 flatheads & 350 in the desert of AZ & haven't been towed yet !!!

B-O-B, I received the RMI-25 today, but I won't put it in until I run the car again and check the overflow tank situation. I'll keep you posted.
Thanks,
Joe

[rich b]

Another bothersome question; but curiosity is getting the better of me, wondering what are the differences between the ebay aluminum radiator and the brass one. Core size, etc.

[Tinker]

Rich b, I think a lot of people are missing the objective here. You are not, It's not about the ebay rad. It was established from the beginning and the reason he wanted to change it. it's making an original looking "version" work. It might not be this version that works. But it brings visions' of flatheads with 1 wire alternators with the ebay version. Fluid volume is apt and a good question.


200 for what you have might be the operating temp. High but not that high. 220, shut her down.

[solidaxle]

Originally Posted by 40cpe

Just curious, but I wonder if the blower could be adding a little air to the engine to reduce your vacuum at cruise. My 276" naturally aspirated runs 17" at cruise. It has a 278 degree cam (L100).

The lower vacuum while cruising shouldn't be a problem with the over temperature. My blown 8ba behaves the same way. 20" at idle, 10" at cruise. Runs 180 while going down the road on 90 degree days. Too long at idle and it climbs to 200.

[solidaxle]

Originally Posted by Tinker

Rich b, I think a lot of people are missing the objective here. You are not, It's not about the ebay rad. It was established from the beginning and the reason he wanted to change it. it's making an original looking "version" work. It might not be this version that works. But it brings visions' of flatheads with 1 wire alternators with the ebay version. Fluid volume is apt and a good question.


200 for what you have might be the operating temp. High but not that high. 220, shut her down.

With all the changes. It would be interesting to see if the POS aluminum one cures the problems with all the mods done.
I think he has exhausted all his options.

[Bored&Stroked]

With a blower, you'll not see boost unless you throw a lot of AIR at the rotors - which means the throttle plates are probably fully open. With smaller carbs, it is difficult to get enough air into the blower - so they become one limiting factor.

In a cruise situation you'll usually see more vacuum above the rotors than in a NA engine, due do the air being pulled in by the blower. Total timing and the curve are super important, and your total amount is dependent on a lot of factors. (Total effective compression ratio, cam timing, fuel type, AFRs, combustion chamber, engine temps, etc.). One has to ensure that detonation doesn't show up under boost - or you can ruin an engine in a hurry.

Having a boost referenced timing control isn't a bad thing in that it allows you to run more timing while not under boost (which is the majority of the time). Just make darn sure it is working! Pulling timing out usually requires an electronic ignition of some sort - and there are a lot of good products out there.

[Bored&Stroked]

Here is a picture of what roots type supercharger rotors look like. There are 'High-Helix' designs for 14-71 competition blowers. I recently completed these designs and CNC code - to be made on a HAAS VF5S milling machine with a live 4th axis.

Here is one in the machine (just before taking it out). It takes about 5 1/2 hours per rotor to machine these:

rotor1.jpg

Here is what it goes inside of:

HurricaneForceBlower.jpg

Wait until you see the new blower design I've almost completed - the case will be whacked out of a single pre-heat-treated chunk of aluminum. I can't show it off as of yet.

[jrvariel48]

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Originally Posted by Tinker

Rich b, I think a lot of people are missing the objective here. You are not, It's not about the ebay rad. It was established from the beginning and the reason he wanted to change it. it's making an original looking "version" work. It might not be this version that works. But it brings visions' of flatheads with 1 wire alternators with the ebay version. Fluid volume is apt and a good question.


200 for what you have might be the operating temp. High but not that high. 220, shut her down.

That may be Tinker. I have to try a couple of things before the radiator change

[jrvariel48]

Originally Posted by solidaxle

With all the changes. It would be interesting to see if the POS aluminum one cures the problems with all the mods done.
I think he has exhausted all his options.

I certainly hope so. If not, I don't know what to try>
This whole thing is exhausting!!

[jrvariel48]

Originally Posted by Bored&Stroked

With a blower, you'll not see boost unless you throw a lot of AIR at the rotors - which means the throttle plates are probably fully open. With smaller carbs, it is difficult to get enough air into the blower - so they become one limiting factor.

In a cruise situation you'll usually see more vacuum above the rotors than in a NA engine, due do the air being pulled in by the blower. Total timing and the curve are super important, and your total amount is dependent on a lot of factors. (Total effective compression ratio, cam timing, fuel type, AFRs, combustion chamber, engine temps, etc.). One has to ensure that detonation doesn't show up under boost - or you can ruin an engine in a hurry.

Having a boost referenced timing control isn't a bad thing in that it allows you to run more timing while not under boost (which is the majority of the time). Just make darn sure it is working! Pulling timing out usually requires an electronic ignition of some sort - and there are a lot of good products out there.

I thought about putting in a BTM. I'm really not too concerned with gas mileage so bumping up my total timing is low on the list. I'll stay on the safe side with 21* total

[jrvariel48]

Originally Posted by Bored&Stroked

Here is a picture of what roots type supercharger rotors look like. There are 'High-Helix' designs for 14-71 competition blowers. I recently completed these designs and CNC code - to be made on a HAAS VF5S milling machine with a live 4th axis.

Here is one in the machine (just before taking it out). It takes about 5 1/2 hours per rotor to machine these:

Attachment 496241

Here is what it goes inside of:

Attachment 496242

Wait until you see the new blower design I've almost completed - the case will be whacked out of a single pre-heat-treated chunk of aluminum. I can't show it off as of yet.

VERY impressive! I had no idea you were that involved in design and machining!

[jrvariel48]

I took the car out again today to double check the larger overflow tank. Outside temp was 90 degrees with 54% humidity
It idled in the drive way for about 10 minutes at 170*. I drove it out to the high way and it was still at 170*. Mashed the throttle pulling 6lbs. of boost and through the gears I went, up to 70 mph. Pulled back to 65 for about 5 minutes and the temp went right up to 205*
Pulled off the high way to make a U-turn and head home and the temp dropped to 200* and fluctuated between 190-205*. Bottom line, the larger overflow tank didn't help.
Next step is the RMI-25. I'd like to give that a couple of hours of driving time at the least to give it a fair chance.
Again, the 205* sucks and I don't like it, but it was also 90* outside and I don't drive my car in that temperature. If my Sunday morning drives go up to 200* for now, I'll live with it until I change the radiator back. Patience

[solidaxle]

Originally Posted by jrvariel48

I certainly hope so. If not, I don't know what to try>
This whole thing is exhausting!!

"Endeavor to Persevere!"


The Outlaw Josey Wales

[jrvariel48]

Originally Posted by solidaxle

"Endeavor to Persevere!"


The Outlaw Josey Wales

Doin' the best I can!!

[Tinker]

Originally Posted by solidaxle

With all the changes. It would be interesting to see if the POS aluminum one cures the problems with all the mods done.
I think he has exhausted all his options.

There is no question the "p.o.s" aluminum version worked. It's the fact that it doesn't look right that is the issue. Not the performance. Somewhere there is solution. Probably involves time and money.


Too recap: First paragraph, first post....

"I've been trying to cool my car down a little for the past couple of months. When it's 50-60 degrees outside it's not a concern, but as we get into summer here in Jersey things really heat up. It seems that after I installed the radiator the problems started. I had a cheap Ebay aluminum P.O.S. it there last summer and I had no problems"


With everything going on... 200 isn't the end of the world or a bit issue.



What was it running before with the p.o.s rad?

[jrvariel48]

Originally Posted by Tinker

There is no question the "p.o.s" aluminum version worked. It's the fact that it doesn't look right that is the issue. Not the performance. Somewhere there is solution. Probably involves time and money.


Too recap: First paragraph, first post....

"I've been trying to cool my car down a little for the past couple of months. When it's 50-60 degrees outside it's not a concern, but as we get into summer here in Jersey things really heat up. It seems that after I installed the radiator the problems started. I had a cheap Ebay aluminum P.O.S. it there last summer and I had no problems"


With everything going on... 200 isn't the end of the world or a bit issue.



What was it running before with the p.o.s rad?

I was running the original radiator. It was repaired so many times it looked like Frankenstein! I also wanted to run a pressurized system

[Tinker]

So what did the ebay radiator run?


You based your disappointment of Brassworks on the fact the ebay rad worked flawless. The brassworks seems like it keeps you at 200?


Recore in the works?

[jrvariel48]

Originally Posted by Tinker

So what did the ebay radiator run?


You based your disappointment of Brassworks on the fact the ebay rad worked flawless. The brassworks seems like it keeps you at 200?


Recore in the works?

Ebay radiator ran at 190 at it's highest. Yes Brassworks is up to205, but to be fair I'm running the car at temps I wouldn't normally drive in. The Brassworks radiator will run up to 205 even when it was 73 degrees outside. When it was that cool with the ebay radiator, I didn't need to turn on the fan. The fan on the ebay rad was a pusher mounted in the middle of the core

[Tinker]

190 is great. Also ran a pusher fan too. But you hated how it looks.

Guessing you are running a electric fan on the brass rad. Maybe it needs to be turned on earlier.

Seems like the brassworks is working but you need to fine tune your system? asking?

[jrvariel48]

Originally Posted by Tinker

190 is great. Also ran a pusher fan too. But you hated how it looks.

Guessing you are running a electric fan on the brass rad. Maybe it needs to be turned on earlier.

Seems like the brassworks is working but you need to fine tune your system? asking?

Tinker I'm running a puller fan on the Brassworks radiator mounted as high as it can go under the top tank. On the hottest days of testing, lets say 85 degrees and above, I turn the fan on right after I start the car. It only takes about 5 minutes for the motor to reach 170 degrees. I think my system is pretty fine tuned, but that may not be true. I know my timing and A/F ratios are in a great spot, but that's about it.
I still have some things to try before I change back to the ebay radiator. I'll pull the water pumps to take a look at the impellers to make sure everything is ok with them.
I ordered a set of Bob Shewman T-stats and when they arrive I will install them. I plan on taking a ride this morning. The temperature is 63 degrees right now, but I probably won't get the car out until it's closer to 70 degrees. I will report back later today to update the condition
Thanks Joe

[glennpm]

I read this whole thread a few days ago but didn't notice if you removed the fan and tried cruising without any fan and shroud. Did you try this recognizing that it is real easy for me to suggest it but but not so easy physically :-)

Glenn

[jrvariel48]

Originally Posted by glennpm

I read this whole thread a few days ago but didn't notice if you removed the fan and tried cruising without any fan and shroud. Did you try this recognizing that it is real easy for me to suggest it but but not so easy physically :-)

Glenn

Glenn I remove the CCI fan with shroud a few weeks ago and installed a
Flex-x-lite puller fan.
I never drove the car without any fan in fear of boiling over.
After all the testing I've done I don't think it'll make a noticeable difference. I've driven the car from 40-65 mph with the fan off and see no temperature change on a hot day Thanks Joe

[glennpm]

Thanks Joe, I hope your test ride today works out for you.

Glenn

[glennpm]

Joe, did you do anything else after you switched the Aluminum radiator?
I'm wondering if you have brakes dragging. smell and touch test on the brake drums will tell you this. The fastest you go the more this and air resistance will drag on the engine.

[jrvariel48]

Originally Posted by glennpm

Joe, did you do anything else after you switched the Aluminum radiator?
I'm wondering if you have brakes dragging. smell and touch test on the brake drums will tell you this. The fastest you go the more this and air resistance will drag on the engine.

No changes were made after I installed the radiator. I have the MT 11" Lincoln style brakes up front and drums on the 9" rear. All adjusted well.

[glennpm]

Oh well ....

[jrvariel48]

I took the car out this morning
63 degrees 61% humidity

I'm using a digital stop watch for the times listed below.

I started the car and let it idle. NO FAN.
4 minutes the temp was 150 degrees.
At 5 minutes, 30 seconds the drivers side t-stat opened
At 6 minutes the temp rose to 170 degrees
At 6 min/30seconds the passenger t-stat opened.
The seconds are approximate, but very close
8 minutes in I start to drive to the high way which is a couple of minutes away temp is 175
8 min/30seconds I hit 180 and turn on the fan. I got nervous!
9 minutes I reach the high way and turn off the fan. Fan was on for approximately 1 minute.
I drove on the high way for about 13 minutes at 60-65 mph at 180 degrees.
Got off the high way and hit the back roads for about 12 minutes at 30-45 mph and temp hits 185
Back on the high way for 14 minutes still at 185 and NO FAN.
Get off the high way for a short stop and go ride to my house and I hit 190 degrees as I pull in the driveway
Total run about 50 minutes.
It really like 63 degrees!

[cadillac512]

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Well heck, Joe...I like 63 degrees too after this 102-104 every day here.
Terry

[jrvariel48]

Originally Posted by cadillac512

Well heck, Joe...I like 63 degrees too after this 102-104 every day here.
Terry

Damn Terry that’s too hot!

[B-O-B]

You boys need to venture out west. !07 as I type this & that isn't too bad.

[jrvariel48]

Originally Posted by B-O-B

You boys need to venture out west. !07 as I type this & that isn't too bad.

Yeah, no good!! 70 degrees is too hot for me!

[jrvariel48]

I installed the Bob Shewman T-stats today. I might have a chance at a drive tomorrow.
I'll keep you posted.

[cadillac512]

If nothing else, you're getting to drive around a lot!

[jrvariel48]

Originally Posted by cadillac512

If nothing else, you're getting to drive around a lot!

HAHAHA!! As frustrating as this is, I really can't complain about seat time!
I'm really chasing about 10 degrees. After the T-stats, I was thinking of changing the pumps. I found out that they're Speedway pumps not Skips as I originally thought. I personally don't think the Speedway pumps are a problem, but process of elimination is key. I sent cores to Skip last week so I'm just waiting for them to come in. The saga continues!

[Tinker]

I'm guessing you have boiled a pot on the stove with a thermometer to check when your thermostats opened.

Some guys are using volvo stat's as they fit and open at 170.

190 wouldn't bother me. Glad you are driving it and flushing the gremlins.

[40cpe]

Originally Posted by Tinker

I'm guessing you have boiled a pot on the stove with a thermometer to check when your thermostats opened.



190 wouldn't bother me.

In 63 degree weather? What would it run in 95 degree weather?

[Tinker]

Originally Posted by 40cpe

In 63 degree weather? What would it run in 95 degree weather?

Warmer. glad it's 63 in NJ.


Might be understanding Brassworks response a bit better now.

[jrvariel48]

Originally Posted by Tinker

I'm guessing you have boiled a pot on the stove with a thermometer to check when your thermostats opened.

Some guys are using volvo stat's as they fit and open at 170.

190 wouldn't bother me. Glad you are driving it and flushing the gremlins.

Tinker I put then on the stove and saw they opened at about 180 degrees. (these are 160 degree t-stats) I don't know how accurate this test was. I really just wanted to make sure that they did open.

[jrvariel48]

Originally Posted by 40cpe

In 63 degree weather? What would it run in 95 degree weather?

I took a quick test ride yesterday with the Bob Shewman stats. They look just like my old stats except there's 4 holes drilled through around the perimeter.
It was 90 degrees.
Here's the timeline:
5 minutes idle, no fan to reach 150 degrees
6 " " 160
7 " " 170
Start to drive at 7 minutes. Driving was stop and go up to 30 mph.
8 minutes in it went to 180 degrees
10 minutes in it went to 190
I put the fan on at that point.
15 minutes in I was at 200 degrees
Pulled car back in the garage.

I should be able to get some better info today with some high way time also.

[jrvariel48]

Originally Posted by Tinker

Warmer. glad it's 63 in NJ.


Might be understanding Brassworks response a bit better now.

Tinker it looks like we'll be getting more heat here in Jersey this coming week with temps reaching 90 degrees

[jrvariel48]

I don't want to bore everyone with the details, but it was the same.
Start the car, drive the car park the car.
It was 75 degrees outside, temp was fine until i got on the high way and it went to 200 and then drops to 185 on the back roads

[cmbrucew]

Joe
With all the work and time you have invested trying to make the brassworks radiator results better, why not put the ugly aluminum radiator back in and drive it.
Mount it on the wall and put a dartboard on it.

My .02 cents


Bruce

[jrvariel48]

Originally Posted by cmbrucew

Joe
With all the work and time you have invested trying to make the brassworks radiator results better, why not put the ugly aluminum radiator back in and drive it.
Mount it on the wall and put a dartboard on it.

My .02 cents


Bruce

Hahaha! Bruce, I hear what you're saying! I'm just trying to be methodical and try everything possible. I figure with the end of summer coming, the temps will be drop and I'll have more time to change the radiator.
Thanks Joe

[Slamnslash]

What style radiator hoses are you using? Are the they flexy ribbed ones by chance?

[Slamnslash]

What style radiator hoses are you using? Are the they flexy ribbed ones by chance?

[Ronnieroadster]

The enormous amount of work and expense you put into experimenting and testing trying to find a solution to a poorly designed radiator has been interesting but from what I can tell its not going to solve the actual problem. There's no miracle cure for a radiator that's not going to work.
Ronnieroadster

[jrvariel48]

Originally Posted by Slamnslash

What style radiator hoses are you using? Are the they flexy ribbed ones by chance?

Slam, they're 1 3/4" ID smooth hoses top and bottom
Thanks Joe

[jrvariel48]

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Originally Posted by Ronnieroadster

The enormous amount of work and expense you put into experimenting and testing trying to find a solution to a poorly designed radiator has been interesting but from what I can tell its not going to solve the actual problem. There's no miracle cure for a radiator that's not going to work.
Ronnieroadster

Understood Ronnie. I'm putting the radiator project on the back burner for now. When I went out on Sunday I had to cut the ride short because of a intermittent clunking sound coming from the back of the car.
Always interesting!!
Thanks, Joe

[tubman]

I'm with "Ronnieroadster" on this. The only way to solve an insufficient coolant flow problem is to increase it. Fans, better airflow, and anything else is an exercise in futility.

Your "bull-headed" determination will not solve the problem.

[Angledrive]

But it has been kind of entertaining

[jrvariel48]

Lol, when did I become the bad guy here!?

[Ronnieroadster]

Originally Posted by jrvariel48

Lol, when did I become the bad guy here!?

Your not the bad guy . Your showing all of us you have a huge amount of energy to do what's needed to try and solve a problem. And lots of patience

[Tinker]

Originally Posted by Ronnieroadster

The enormous amount of work and expense you put into experimenting and testing trying to find a solution to a poorly designed radiator has been interesting but from what I can tell its not going to solve the actual problem. There's no miracle cure for a radiator that's not going to work.
Ronnieroadster

I'm not sure I'm seeing numbers from the brasswork that I would call out a bad design or at least a stock design with provisions. The last numbers seem favorable.



I agree the tenacity is a very admiral thing.

[Tinker]

Originally Posted by jrvariel48

Lol, when did I become the bad guy here!?

In no way you are a bad guy. Maybe perceived. But not.

[jrvariel48]

Originally Posted by Ronnieroadster

Your not the bad guy . Your showing all of us you have a huge amount of energy to do what's needed to try and solve a problem. And lots of patience

Thank you Ronnie, I appreciate that!

[jrvariel48]

Originally Posted by Tinker

In no way you are a bad guy. Maybe perceived. But not.

Thanks Tinker, I'm just trying to perform problem solving one step at a time. I know in the back of my head what the end result of each test will be, but I still need to rule out each step along the way!

[jrvariel48]

Well, I found the clunking yesterday. I started by draining the Ford 9" rear to check for metal. I had installed a drain plug in the bottom to change the gear oil to make things a little easier. The oil was slightly metallic. I put a magnet inside the drain to check around the bottom of the rear and didn't find anything. I pulled the wheels and drums to check the brakes and all looked fine. I pulled the axles and then found my clunking. The drivers side bearing was destroyed. I went to the local AutoZone for a new sealed bearing part # RW-207-CCRA bearing.
The car is back up and driving without the clunking! Now back to the cooling issue!

[cadillac512]

Sure beats working on a banjo rear doesn't it?


Terry

[jrvariel48]

Originally Posted by cadillac512

Sure beats working on a banjo rear doesn't it?


Terry

Oh yeah it does!

[Bored&Stroked]

Originally Posted by cadillac512

Sure beats working on a banjo rear doesn't it?


Terry

No kidding! Can buy parts just about anywhere in the country and you surely can't hurt the rear end with any flathead power you want to apply to it.

[Bored&Stroked]

Originally Posted by jrvariel48

Oh yeah it does!

Question: Was your housing shortened and/or modified from its original form with new spring hangers, shock mounts, bearing ends, trailing arms, etc? The reason I ask is that it is common for folks to take a stock/straight housing and then weld all sorts of brackets to it (with a lot of welds on one side of the axle housing), then just go ahead and run it. What they don't realize is that the housing is warped and the bearings are not running true to the centerline of the axle - so now they are under a lot of stress that shouldn't be there - and they ultimately fail.

There are multiple ways to prevent/fix this - don't have the space to go into them here, but here are a few things to think about.

One thing to note is that usually you'll cut off the original bearing flanges when you shorten the rear. Then, if you're going to be welding on spring hangers, shock brackets, trailing arm brackets, etc.. - you do ALL of that BEFORE you weld the bearing ends back on. Then you straighten the housing (if it needs it - as it probably does), then you use a big-ole alignment bar to jig up the outer ends (with the pumpkin in - and bearing 'pucks' in place) - to ensure that everything is running off the same centerline --- then you weld the ends back on.

When everything is correctly done, the outer axle bearings should last for just about forever . . . if not, then you have issues.

Okay, enough coffee in me this AM, time to get back out in the shop! Working on some custom shock mounts for a vintage 32 hotrod roadster. Maybe I'll post some pics later . . .

B&S

[jrvariel48]

Originally Posted by Bored&Stroked

Question: Was your housing shortened and/or modified from its original form with new spring hangers, shock mounts, bearing ends, trailing arms, etc? The reason I ask is that it is common for folks to take a stock/straight housing and then weld all sorts of brackets to it (with a lot of welds on one side of the axle housing), then just go ahead and run it. What they don't realize is that the housing is warped and the bearings are not running true to the centerline of the axle - so now they are under a lot of stress that shouldn't be there - and they ultimately fail.

There are multiple ways to prevent/fix this - don't have the space to go into them here, but here are a few things to think about.

One thing to note is that usually you'll cut off the original bearing flanges when you shorten the rear. Then, if you're going to be welding on spring hangers, shock brackets, trailing arm brackets, etc.. - you do ALL of that BEFORE you weld the bearing ends back on. Then you straighten the housing (if it needs it - as it probably does), then you use a big-ole alignment bar to jig up the outer ends (with the pumpkin in - and bearing 'pucks' in place) - to ensure that everything is running off the same centerline --- then you weld the ends back on.

When everything is correctly done, the outer axle bearings should last for just about forever . . . if not, then you have issues.

Okay, enough coffee in me this AM, time to get back out in the shop! Working on some custom shock mounts for a vintage 32 hotrod roadster. Maybe I'll post some pics later . . .

B&S

B&S This is a 1969 Bronco small bearing rear I got from a friend. The original spring perches and shock mounts were cut off and ground smooth.
It was not shortened or centered which I found to be a problem. After it was installed in the car and the spring perches installed everything was fine with the exception of the U-joint hitting the corner of the driveshaft tunnel whenever I hit a big bump in the road. Not good.
Then Gosfast, (Gary Sharkey R.I.P.) built me a blown motor. We did crank straps on all three mains. This meant we had to modify the oil pan.
When I installed the motor, I had to make custom mounts to keep the oil panel from hitting the front cross member. It put the motor angle higher than it was originally. When I finally started to drive the car at higher speeds, I noticed a driveline vibration. I was going to try angled spring perch shims to correct the driveline angle, but that would have put the pinion nose even closer to the driveshaft tunnel causing more interference. I decided to have a custom rear fabbed up by a gent in south Jersey that does Ford 8 & 9" rears. My original rear has seen better days and I figured it was a good time to do this. I was planning on installing it this winter. The only thing I need to do is set the pinion and weld on the spring perches. I'm not too concerned with any warpage because he uses a very thick tube for the rear and he told me it would not be a problem.
The shock mounts are part of the leaf spring plate, but I have to say I'm not entirely happy with that because I don't have much shock travel. Needles to say I may change that also. I also had him make 31 spline axles as I noticed my 28 spline axles were beginning to get a little chewed up at the splines. I would love to see some pics of the 32 shock mount!!
Thanks Joe

[jrvariel48]

So the saga continues...I replaced the Speedway water pumps last night with a pair modified by Skip Haney. The impellers are definitely different. There was nothing wrong with the impellers on the speedway pumps as they're only about 2 years old. No pitting
Because of the rain, I won't be able to test drive today

[jrvariel48]

Test ride today and there's no difference. 73* outside today and the gauge read 205* at its highest.
Forgot to mention I went back to propylene glycol at a 50/50 ratio

[Bored&Stroked]

You need a radiator with a bigger core to dissipate more heat. God only knows you've tried everything else and then some. Hopefully Brassworks will meet you in the middle and get the right solution to your problem.

Best of luck,
B&S

[jrvariel48]

Originally Posted by Bored&Stroked

You need a radiator with a bigger core to dissipate more heat. God only knows you've tried everything else and then some. Hopefully Brassworks will meet you in the middle and get the right solution to your problem.

Best of luck,
B&S

That's what I'm hoping for. You're right, I tried everything EXCEPT mounting a second fan which is what Brassworks recommended. I told Lee that wasn't an option for me. I don't like running one fan, but I don't have a choice because of the blower, pullies, etc. I'll email him this week.

[Bored&Stroked]

Originally Posted by jrvariel48

That's what I'm hoping for. You're right, I tried everything EXCEPT mounting a second fan which is what Brassworks recommended. I told Lee that wasn't an option for me. I don't like running one fan, but I don't have a choice because of the blower, pullies, etc. I'll email him this week.

I can understand how a second fan would help when the car isn't moving or is at low speed. BUT I think you've told us many times that your temps continue to rise out on the highway at highway speeds. At higher speeds the fans are doing nothing as you're pumping tons of air through the radiator core via the fact you're moving at a high rate of speed.

If your temperatures are rising to 205 on the highway and Lee says that a second fan is going to lower them, then I'm not buying that for one minute. No offense to Lee, but fans (any dang fans) are not helping you at 55 mph.

My goal would be for not higher than about 190 going down the highway - unless it was 100 degrees out and I was pulling some huge grade.


Best of luck, hope you get things sorted out.
B&S

[jrvariel48]

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Originally Posted by Bored&Stroked

I can understand how a second fan would help when the car isn't moving or is at low speed. BUT I think you've told us many times that your temps continue to rise out on the highway at highway speeds. At higher speeds the fans are doing nothing as you're pumping tons of air through the radiator core via the fact you're moving at a high rate of speed.

If your temperatures are rising to 205 on the highway and Lee says that a second fan is going to lower them, then I'm not buying that for one minute. No offense to Lee, but fans (any dang fans) are not helping you at 55 mph.

My goal would be for not higher than about 190 going down the highway - unless it was 100 degrees out and I was pulling some huge grade.


Best of luck, hope you get things sorted out.
B&S

B & S That's 100% correct. The only time I see an increase in temp is on the highway. When I get off the highway, the temp drops back down.
Thanks

[kurt v]

There was a post on a drake rad with problems, out come was plugged tubes from factory, maybe you got a brass works (drake rad style with plugged tubes ) any way to check the flow ?

[slowforty]

One of my friends had an issue where the flat head ran around 200 degrees. But it never got any hotter or lost water, it did have a catch can, He put a piece of tape over the temp gauge and enjoyed the heat while driving in the winter.

[jrvariel48]

Originally Posted by kurt v

There was a post on a drake rad with problems, out come was plugged tubes from factory, maybe you got a brass works (drake rad style with plugged tubes ) any way to check the flow ?

I'm sure there's a formula for that flow ratio, but I don't know what it is. I can put water into the filler neck, but I really can tell if individual tubes are clogged.

Anyone have a way to test this???

[jrvariel48]

Originally Posted by slowforty

One of my friends had an issue where the flat head ran around 200 degrees. But it never got any hotter or lost water, it did have a catch can, He put a piece of tape over the temp gauge and enjoyed the heat while driving in the winter.

I installed a 2 quart overflow tank which works well. I had a smaller tank and it kept puking water coolant and it was always empty when the motor cooler. I thought maybe air was getting into the system, but the larger tank disproved that theory.
The outside temp was 43* degrees today when I went for my ride. It didn't go over 180* even without the fan on the entire 1 hour ride!

[tubman]

If you can afford a supercharger, I think you should be able to afford the correct radiator.

[Ronnieroadster]

With 43 degrees outside temp the engine should be no where's near 180 degrees running temp it should be a lot lower. I realize you were able to finally drive an hour without the fan on the entire time but there's a still HUGE problem with that cooling system. I'm thinking RADIATOR is the problem.
Ronnieroadster

[tubman]

Originally Posted by Ronnieroadster

With 43 degrees outside temp the engine should be no where's near 180 degrees running temp it should be a lot lower. I realize you were able to finally drive an hour without the fan on the entire time but there's a still HUGE problem with that cooling system. I'm thinking RADIATOR is the problem.
Ronnieroadster

Yup. See post #4.

[Ronnieroadster]

Originally Posted by tubman

Yup. See post #4.

Oh heck that was only three months ago
Now just think if the radiator was changed at the beginning of all this how many fun miles would have been driven since then.
.

[ford38v8]

Originally Posted by Ronnieroadster

Oh heck that was only three months ago
Now just think if the radiator was changed at the beginning of all this how many fun miles would have been driven since then.
.

I think the OP has no intention of ever changing out his radiator. He's having too much fun keeping this thread going on forever.

[jrvariel48]

Originally Posted by ford38v8

I think the OP has no intention of ever changing out his radiator. He's having too much fun keeping this thread going on forever.

Believe me this has not been fun at all. I can think of better things to do with my time than chase this problem. I've also spent well over $3000 between the radiator, the repair to the radiator, the water pumps, the different coolants, etc.,etc., etc. There's a point to be proven in the name of process of elimination and seeing a problem through. It's my money and my time.
Hopefully people are learning from this post.

[jrvariel48]

Originally Posted by Ronnieroadster

Oh heck that was only three months ago
Now just think if the radiator was changed at the beginning of all this how many fun miles would have been driven since then.
.

Ron, the driving is always fun and never a burden. I just had to focus on my temp but that didn't stop me from driving!

[jrvariel48]

Originally Posted by tubman

If you can afford a supercharger, I think you should be able to afford the correct radiator.

Money is not the issue

[ford38v8]

Originally Posted by jrvariel48

Believe me this has not been fun at all. I can think of better things to do with my time than chase this problem. I've also spent well over $3000 between the radiator, the repair to the radiator, the water pumps, the different coolants, etc.,etc., etc. There's a point to be proven in the name of process of elimination and seeing a problem through. It's my money and my time.
Hopefully people are learning from this post.

Ya, the lesson to be learned is how to ignore the advice you’ve asked for.

[Gene1949]

(1) flathead rule of thumb/safe operating temperature; ambient air temp in degrees + 100
(2) your current powerplant is producing more BTUs than your radiator can reject.

[The Brassworks]

Originally Posted by Bored&Stroked

I can understand how a second fan would help when the car isn't moving or is at low speed. BUT I think you've told us many times that your temps continue to rise out on the highway at highway speeds. At higher speeds the fans are doing nothing as you're pumping tons of air through the radiator core via the fact you're moving at a high rate of speed.

If your temperatures are rising to 205 on the highway and Lee says that a second fan is going to lower them, then I'm not buying that for one minute. No offense to Lee, but fans (any dang fans) are not helping you at 55 mph.


My goal would be for not higher than about 190 going down the highway - unless it was 100 degrees out and I was pulling some huge grade.


Best of luck, hope you get things sorted out.
B&S

I am not offended. I agree with you. He did not listen to what I said and he did not read what I wrote. rinse wash repeat

[jrvariel48]

Originally Posted by The Brassworks

I am not offended. I agree with you. He did not listen to what I said and he did not read what I wrote. rinse wash repeat

This is what Lee suggested. I did everything but the two fans, but still have high temps. I will put the ebay radiator back in the coming weeks to see what I get. It'll be more difficult now because the outside air is much cooler, but I should be able to see some kind of change.
Lee, I don't understand which part where I didn't follow your advice. I did everything you asked for except installing two fans.
Please explain, I never claimed to be the smartest guy. Thank you


One change at a time. Get a note pad and log results under various conditions after making one change before you make the next change.
What's relevant is the temperature in and out and I saw you bought an inline gauge.
The highway and off ramp temps are what I would want to see most.
Log the date, air temp, gauge temps (at idle, 10-20, 30-40, 50-60), distances traveled at respective speeds and any changes observed within those speeds.
The cooling components fan claims 2,500. You spent money on this product so use it.

That shroud is trapping air at higher speeds and then not recovering I am not sure its the root cause but its not helping and your description sounds like trapped air flow and heat soak
Remove the shroud. In this scaled illustration the black is flush against the core and in the grey area, the air has to pass in a ~7/8” gap around the ~1” solid ring supporting the blades. Your temps are okay around town but climb on the highway this will help on the highway and you'll have to see how it does around town. You may be able to run one fan


If that reduces your temperatures enough for highway and town, then stop. If it gets you lower and you still want more, then put the SPAL pusher back on in an offset position. The yellow gives you 1,959 cfm. The green claims 2,500 cfm, the blue area is the combined cfm (not literally). This will help on the highway and this will help it recover (from what I hope is an already lower than 205 temperature from getting rid of that molded plastic).



The only other suggestion I would make is two SPAL fans. I would NOT go this route I tested step 3 and step 4 because of the incremental cost

they're better quality.
the combined stated cfm is lower than the two you have now but I believe it to be closer to reality.

the motors have smaller diameters to impede air and the vanes and finger guards block less air than the flex lite you had and the cooling components you bought.



I recall you said the hoses had not collapsed. Check your coolant flow with thermostats open and higher rpm. If its not pumping enough you may want to check your pump impellers condition and design. The guys who mentioned the fallacy of fluid too fast are correct - there is no such thing. The oe pumps used cast impellers. The casting is thick and they have a reduced eye which results in reduced volume. The vanes are not tall and this too reduces the flow. I have seen worn vanes and you should look for evidence of cavitation e.g. pitting and tip wear if you don't have flow.
Regarding your coolant composition.

Water has the best specific heat value to shed heat.

Ethlyene glycol and propylene glycol have engine preservation properties and raises boiling point but lower specific heat. Specific heat is the amount of heat required to change the temperature of a mass unit of a substance by one degree.

You're using 20/80 propylene glycol at 328' elevation and have a 7psi cap I expect you'll boil at 233 deg. You are running at 205 on the highway so boiling is not a concern but specific heat is.

Tap water may have minerals and create scale so use a premix or distilled water.

[The Brassworks]

I am going think about your problem over the weekend to see if you missed anything. I had someone type this up so I could reflect on what could possibly be special about this radiator in this set-up.

Between October 14th 2021 and July 4, 2022, Joe changed from an aluminum radiator with multiple repairs purchased on ebay to a new copper new radiator. He also changed thermostats, coolant, switched pusher fan to puller fan with shroud, removed his lower air panel. He reports 205o on the highway for short durations and would like to see 190o

July 26th He adjusted his timing, removed the fan and shroud and changed the fan manufacturer and saw a 40o drop in the top to bottom of the radiator

July 30th He added the air panel back, radiator drops 30o from top to bottom but sees 205o at 85o

August 1st He saw 205o for 15 minutes at 78o

August 3rd He pondered making an aluminum and copper radiator. He installed a larger coolant tank, adjusted his timing.

August 5th Discovers air in his system 200o temps that day were between 62o and 90o

August 6th saw 205o on the highway on a 90o day

August 13th Joe reports; “No changes we remade after I installed the radiator.” 185o at 63o day

August 18th discovers his pumps are speedway not skip haney

August 20th discovers that his 160 degree thermostats open at 180o. Replaces t stats with Bob Shewman drilled hole thermostats. Saw 200o on a 90o day

August 20th Saw 200o on 75o day

August 28th Replaced his rear end

October 1st Changes the water pumps from speedway to skip haney and changes to 50/50

October 7th 205o at 73o

October 9th 180o at 43o

[19Fordy]

This is really off the track BUT, I wonder if a cross flow radiator design would work better?

QUESTION: Was the Ebay alum. radiator that seemed to work ever reinstalled? I didn't see that mentioned in the chronolgy above.

And then there's the idea of using an electric water pump on a flathead.
https://www.fordbarn.com/forum/showthread.php?t=85747

[Bored&Stroked]

Hey Lee - trying to figure out your last post?

* He fixed the issue *

[The Brassworks]

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Sorry - That was copied and pasted. I'll edit that out and the grunt will be severely beaten.

[Bored&Stroked]

Originally Posted by The Brassworks

Sorry - That was copied and pasted. I'll edit that out and the grunt will be severely beaten.

Thanks for the fix and reply

[The Brassworks]

I never got to the weekend. I lost my afternoon going down this rabbit hole again.

A year before Joe ever contacted us he was on this forum talking with this same group about this same engine with the OE Ford radiator at temps of 210 and 220. He seemed far less worried then.

I am in agreement he needs a bigger radiator.

https://www.fordbarn.com/forum/showt...69#post1890769

[jrvariel48]

Originally Posted by 19Fordy

This is really off the track BUT, I wonder if a cross flow radiator design would work better?

QUESTION: Was the Ebay alum. radiator that seemed to work ever reinstalled? I didn't see that mentioned in the chronolgy above.

And then there's the idea of using an electric water pump on a flathead.
https://www.fordbarn.com/forum/showthread.php?t=85747

That's my next step

[jrvariel48]

Originally Posted by The Brassworks

I never got to the weekend. I lost my afternoon going down this rabbit hole again.

A year before Joe ever contacted us he was on this forum talking with this same group about this same engine with the OE Ford radiator at temps of 210 and 220. He seemed far less worried then.

I am in agreement he needs a bigger radiator.

https://www.fordbarn.com/forum/showt...69#post1890769

Hi Lee thanks for your time. Referring to the older post, that was a stock radiator that I had hot tanked at least two times. After pulling it out one day I noticed a lot of built up crud coming out of the bottom outlets. I believe that's around the time I got the ebay radiator and possibly when I ordered your radiator. I can check dates to confirm.

[The Brassworks]

"crud coming out of the bottom outlets"? You said you had a boiled the block and had hot tanked the radiator two times. Where would sludge come from?

In 2020 you said “I do have about 6 head studs leaking coolant right now so I don't know if that's a factor or not.” On August 5th of this year you said you did not use stud sealer https://www.fordbarn.com/forum/showt...315217&page=14 . Did you ever seal the leaks?

There is no doubt, you definitely need a bigger radiator.

[jrvariel48]

Originally Posted by The Brassworks

"crud coming out of the bottom outlets"? You said you had a boiled the block and had hot tanked the radiator two times. Where would sludge come from?

In 2020 you said “I do have about 6 head studs leaking coolant right now so I don't know if that's a factor or not.” On August 5th of this year you said you did not use stud sealer https://www.fordbarn.com/forum/showt...315217&page=14 . Did you ever seal the leaks?

There is no doubt, you definitely need a bigger radiator.

The leaks finally stopped on their own

I believe it was in the original radiator the whole time.
Maybe the reason it ran so hot.

What do you suggest for a bigger radiator??

[The Brassworks]

Because you have room and you want 15 degrees more from a hopped up engine and you have 10% less face area than the OE core for that engine's production year.

Pretty sure the larger coolant recovery tank and cross flow design or electronic pumps or changing your fluid ratios are not going to remedy the problem any more than changing your paint color or tire pressure.

[Bored&Stroked]

Lee is obviously correct - is what we've all been leaning towards for months. Now the question is WHAT radiator and from WHOM. The smartest thing is for you and Lee to take this offline and see if you can negotiate a deal that makes you both happy.

It will probably take a bit of give-n-take on both sides.

I wish you both luck and hope for a successful outcome for all!
B&S

[Tinker]

Thinking about Betty when you are dating her sister is pointless. Looking at anything previous to the rad you are working with, doesn't matter. Less you don't want to date betty.


Think this might be a circumstance of too much engine trying to force something to work. Have you tried to limit you engine to the rad you want to work? Ugh... that doesn't seem right either...


Only so much can work ecstatically and functionally.

[Bored&Stroked]

"ecstatically and functionally" or "aesthetically and functionally" . . . 6 of one, 1/2 dozen of the other.

Just get a bigger radiator! LOL

[slowforty]

I have a radiator that i thought was for my 40. It has a factory shroud but it is 1/2inch to 3/4 inch larger all the way around. Might be for a truck. any ideas?

[The Brassworks]

Gentlemen, Joe is emailing me again for suggestions. Since what I say is not heard or understood and what I type is pasted here, I am eliminating a step.

Joe had his block boiled and hot tanked his radiator. I am not sure why but hat had it hotanked a second time and yet somehow he still still saw crud. His head bolts leaked but luckily, they “stopped leaking on their own”. Joe enjoys the fellowship and the esprit de corps of the virtual coffee shop found on the Ford Barn Forum. Its a great space for him explore his ideas out loud. Here is an article that may help you and Joe further explore the mysteries of combustion gases and flathead design https://www.motortrend.com/how-to/10...-the-flathead/

With regard to the radiator; in July he had 30-40 degree temperature drops in his radiator with his newest fan modifications. After minor changes in August and September e.g change of coolant composition, changed thermostats from 160 to 160 with holes, discovered thermostats were 180 not 160, discovered water pump was speedway not skip haney, had pumps rebuilt, added a larger recovery tank, discovered air in his system and changed a rear end. Other than these minor changes everything was exactly the same but he is apparently back at 205 on the highway for limited times. Albeit better than the 210 and 220 he saw with his OE radiator it not sufficient for Joe. I have a far better understanding of the situation but I am out of ideas related to radiators beyond get a bigger radiator.

[Bored&Stroked]

As Lee said and we all know . . . "get a bigger radiator" is the only viable solution.

There is nothing else left to do (to research the issue) and frankly a lot of potential "gremlins" were chased with little positive impact on the overall situation. Coming full-circle, Joe is basically back to where he started.

Nothing can fix the core issue - the radiator does not have enough cooling capacity for what it is being asked to do - period.

Hopefully Lee and Joe can come to terms with a plan to solve the problem with a new/bigger radiator that can handle his cooling needs.

B&S

[19Fordy]

JOE: Open this link and read the first item: It might provide new ideas.
https://www.google.com/search?q=do+b...hrome&ie=UTF-8

Also read this material:
https://www.google.com/search?q=flat...hrome&ie=UTF-8

I still am pondering what was said in the original post.
"It seems that after I installed the radiator the problems started. I had a cheap Ebay aluminum P.O.S. it there last summer and I had no problems".

That Motor Trend article (above) was excellent.
https://www.motortrend.com/how-to/10...-the-flathead/

[The Brassworks]

It is a good article.

[jrvariel48]

Originally Posted by The Brassworks

Gentlemen, Joe is emailing me again for suggestions. Since what I say is not heard or understood and what I type is pasted here, I am eliminating a step.

Joe had his block boiled and hot tanked his radiator. I am not sure why but hat had it hotanked a second time and yet somehow he still still saw crud. His head bolts leaked but luckily, they “stopped leaking on their own”. Joe enjoys the fellowship and the esprit de corps of the virtual coffee shop found on the Ford Barn Forum. Its a great space for him explore his ideas out loud. Here is an article that may help you and Joe further explore the mysteries of combustion gases and flathead design https://www.motortrend.com/how-to/10...-the-flathead/

With regard to the radiator; in July he had 30-40 degree temperature drops in his radiator with his newest fan modifications. After minor changes in August and September e.g change of coolant composition, changed thermostats from 160 to 160 with holes, discovered thermostats were 180 not 160, discovered water pump was speedway not skip haney, had pumps rebuilt, added a larger recovery tank, discovered air in his system and changed a rear end. Other than these minor changes everything was exactly the same but he is apparently back at 205 on the highway for limited times. Albeit better than the 210 and 220 he saw with his OE radiator it not sufficient for Joe. I have a far better understanding of the situation but I am out of ideas related to radiators beyond get a bigger radiator.

Lets get something straight so everyone can understand.

First off, the reason I had to go through all of this was to satisfy you because you wouldn't own up to the fact that the radiator is too small for my set up. You knew EXACTLY what engine I had when I ordered the radiator, but made no suggestions and then told me you assumed I had no room for a bigger core. As for emailing you for suggestions this morning, was it not you that said I need a bigger radiator a few posts ago?? I will copy and paste my email to you which simply said

Lee,
What's your suggestion for the radiator?
Thanks,
Joe

That's it!! Don't assume, again, that I hot tanked the radiator for a second time because I saw crud coming out of it because that's not what happened. Don't put words in my mouth or try to guess what type of person I am. You don't know anything about me. You do, however keep dodging the questions I asked you three times

Will you make good on the $255 repair I had to make to your top tank mount coming apart with 10 miles on the radiator??

Are you going to make good on this radiator??

As for the rest of the people here that keep telling me "I told you needed a bigger radiator, etc, I can't be expected to take anything for gospel without going through all the possible questions and trying to troubleshoot all the possibilities.
Now that all has been exhausted, everyone, including myself, agrees I need a bigger radiator, but we already knew that.

So Lee, I ask you again,
Are you going to make good on the radiator repair and the radiator??
wash, rinse, repeat

[19Fordy]

Joe, I humbly suggest that you are not enhancing your situation if you continue to aire your argument with Brassworks on any public forum. Give Lee a call, negotiate the price and have him build you the custom radiator you need.

[jrvariel48]

Originally Posted by 19Fordy

Joe, I humbly suggest that you are not enhancing your situation if you continue to aire your argument with Brassworks on any public forum. Give Lee a call, negotiate the price and have him build you the custom radiator you need.

That's exactly why I emailed him this morning 19Fordy. I feel I need to let everyone here know what's going on with this situation.

[jrvariel48]

Let me say that I appreciate everyone's input on all the questions I ask here. It's helped me trough everything I don't know about the cars. There's a learning curve that not all of us have gotten to yet, be patient with us. I'm sorry I come off unappealing to some people, that's not who I am, but I also don't like being attacked verbally or to have people tell me what type of person I am. My apologies to all

[19Fordy]

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Originally Posted by jrvariel48

That's exactly why I emailed him this morning 19Fordy. I feel I need to let everyone here know what's going on with this situation.

Joe:
Even though it may vent your frustration, there's no compelling need to keep letting everyone know about your situation with Brassworks. The reputation of their company is excellent and will continue to be so despite your current situation. If you can convince Brassworks to build you the 4 core custom radiator you desire, you will end up a happy camper as you coolly motor down the road.

To convince Brassworks, reinstall the Ebay alum. radiator and see if you run cool again. That way, you know the Brassworks radiator is not applicable to your cooling needs. This will strengthen your case and probably sway Brassworks to build you another radiator at a discounted price.

If you were the Brassworks representative, wouldn't you first ask the customer to reinstall the original alum. radiator as a baseline for remediation?

Hope it works out well for you.

[jrvariel48]

Originally Posted by 19Fordy

Joe:
Even though it may vent your frustration, there's no compelling need to keep letting everyone know about your situation with Brassworks. The reputation of their company is excellent and will continue to be so despite your current situation. If you can convince Brassworks to build you the 4 core custom radiator you desire, you will end up a happy camper as you coolly motor down the road.

To convince Brassworks, reinstall the Ebay alum. radiator and see if you run cool again. That way, you know the Brassworks radiator is not applicable to your cooling needs. This will strengthen your case and probably sway Brassworks to build you another radiator at a discounted price.

If you were the Brassworks representative, wouldn't you first ask the customer to reinstall the original alum. radiator as a baseline for remediation?

Hope it works out well for you.

As usual, great advice! Thank you 19Fordy. I agree 100% and installing the ebay radiator is the next step for sure.
Thanks again,
Joe

[Bored&Stroked]

From my perspective, I don't think Lee needs to be convinced that Joe needs a bigger radiator - he said so himself. Why go through all the trouble to prove something that everybody already agrees on?

The real question is can Joe and Lee work out a deal between them that solves the problem in a manner they can both get behind. Obviously, we'd all prefer that, but it isn't our car, nor our business (nor our money). That is a one-on-one conversation that doesn't need a public forum to debate it and whatever the $$$ are, is frankly none of our dang business anyway.

Joe and Lee need to have a conversation and hash that out - or not. Once Joe knows if he's getting a new radiator from Lee (or not), then the next steps become clear.

He either gets a new radiator from Lee, or he gets one from somebody else - that's it.

After 388 posts, there isn't more to discuss and ponder, we've all done as much as we can.

I wish them both the best . . .

B&S

[jrvariel48]

Originally Posted by Bored&Stroked

From my perspective, I don't think Lee needs to be convinced that Joe needs a bigger radiator - he said so himself. Why go through all the trouble to prove something that everybody already agrees on?

The real question is can Joe and Lee work out a deal between them that solves the problem in a manner they can both get behind. Obviously, we'd all prefer that, but it isn't our car, nor our business (nor our money). That is a one-on-one conversation that doesn't need a public forum to debate it and whatever the $$$ are, is frankly none of our dang business anyway.

Joe and Lee need to have a conversation and hash that out - or not. Once Joe knows if he's getting a new radiator from Lee (or not), then the next steps become clear.

He either gets a new radiator from Lee, or he gets one from somebody else - that's it.

After 388 posts, there isn't more to discuss and ponder, we've all done as much as we can.

I wish them both the best . . .

B&S

We’ll said B&S that’s exactly the direction I’d like to see this go. Thank you for all of your input along the way, it’s much appreciated

[Ronnieroadster]

Joe just to help guide you a bit. Years ago when my new Custom Auto Radiator needed a repair I had the work done locally and CAR refunded me the cost without any delay.
Hopefully you will be able to get something positive accomplished as well.
Ronnieroadster

[jrvariel48]

Originally Posted by Ronnieroadster

Joe just to help guide you a bit. Years ago when my new Custom Auto Radiator needed a repair I had the work done locally and CAR refunded me the cost without any delay.
Hopefully you will be able to get something positive accomplished as well.
Ronnieroadster

Thanks Ronnie, let's hope for the best. I'd like to come to an agreement and move on with this!

[ford38v8]

I don’t know why I keep coming back to read more and more of this same never new conversation going on forever.

[19Fordy]

Joe (and all others) : Here's a very informative thread on HAMB about cooling a flathead.
Long but, worth reading.
https://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/...tricks.273117/

[jrvariel48]

Originally Posted by 19Fordy

Joe (and all others) : Here's a very informative thread on HAMB about cooling a flathead.
Long but, worth reading.
https://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/...tricks.273117/

Thanks Fordy, I’ll check it out!