Who has the legal right to be the owner??

[BRENT in 10-uh-C]

This discussion came up recently at the shop and I thought I would pose this question here to get your opinion on how you would plea your case to a Judge if you were involved.


Let's say that back on July 3rd, 1970, Billy Bob and Bubba Ray seperately attended a swap meet where John Doe was selling items from a parted-out Model A that came from a non-title issuing state (ie: Georgia, etc.).
On that day, Billy Bob purchased a frame (serial #: ☆A1234567☆ ) from John Doe for $100.00 and Billy Bob received a Bill of Sale stating that.
On that same day, Bubba Ray purchased an engine (serial #: ☆A1234567☆ ) from John Doe for $100.00 and Bubba Ray received a Bill of Sale stating he bought this engine.

Forty years later John Doe is deceased and by 'happenstance', Billy Bob and Bubba Ray decide to use their Bill of Sale to apply for a replacement title. After submission, the State sees both are trying to apply for a title with the same number and a hearing is set by a Judge to hear both sides and determine who is legally the rightful owner of the VIN and who should be awarded the title.



Who do you think the title number should be lawfully awarded to, ...and WHY??


.

[peters180a/170b]

Billy Bob [with the frame] and a complete body sitting on it. Sometimes i think it can be proven that from FORD engine# does not match frame# or show's that rebuilt engine's sometime's does not get back to original owners. Just what i think the call would be..

[Glen in Hillman MI]

In Michigam I think it wuold be frist come frist serve.

[Mike V. Florida]

There is more information needed. How did they get a title in the first place? Are they both in the same state? Where does the state they are in look for the number?

Same body style? Were these parts used as replacements or to build a car from scratch? I could go on.

[peters180a/170b]

Mike V. , Morning,,, Brent said they both had a bill of sale [no title]. I [being Billy Bob] would offer Bubba Ray $200.00 or what ever he had into the engine with a little profit .

[Rowdy]

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In this state both would need to apply for an "Assembled Vehicle Title" So both would end up with a 2010 title. Like it or not that is the law here. I am glad I have matching numbers. Rod

[BRENT in 10-uh-C]

Ok, ...all logical points however Ward & Peter, playing Devil's Advocate with you, which 'item' was originally stamped first? We all should agree the Engine was stamped first ...and the Frame took on the same number as the Engine. Therefore it was the Engine that determined what the Frame number would be. I could argue in court it was the Engine that initiated the VIN, --and as such the Engine should take precedence determine the title number.

And, I can make the valid case that the Frame was a servicable item too as it was offered for sale by the Dealers as a replacement when the original Frame became damaged. So while the Frame may not have been exchanged with the same amount of frequency as what an Engine could have, it is plausible that a vehicle could have had the Frame replaced while retaining the original Engine.

Mike, the bodystyle would likely be a moot point as there is no way to prove what bodystyle the engine/frame with ☆A1234567☆ had originally.

.

[peters180a/170b]

Ok in today's world if the police recover a car where do they look for the ID number..On the top side ,, left side of the dash and or the door jamb. Both body parts.

[Aerocraft]

Here in Illinois, some people are having similar issues with the DMV and Revenue folks. Those people are smart enough to know where the VIN number is stamped on the Model A. I recently went through the exercise of helping a friend with a '28 Roadster lift the body off of the frame to get the VIN number in order to positively identify his car. I would judge that the Illinois title would go to Billy Bob. Gar Williams

[Bruce in southern OH]

Seen this before, whom ever has the title is the owner, lots of people wait years to register the their car, if the orginal owner wanted to he can apply for a lost title and he would again own the car. ( you still have to pay taxes from the time of purchase )Had a car that the surviving parent sold while the children were still under age, later the as last parent died the will was read and it showed that the car was to be left to them, estate had come up with the car, car was sold illegally. Car was sold several times, everyone had to reimburse the previous owner. If not you are receiving and selling stolen property,
Bruce

[V4F]

in ca. mine is registered to the motor . never have seen the frame # ..... steve

[Keith True]

I think every state would be different. We still use the Branham bible,that was published for town clerks and the DMV stating location of numbers,weights,number.of cyls.doors,body models,etc.On the A it states the engine number is the serial number.Period.There is a picture showing the pad and what the stamping should look like,describing the stars on the ends.It goes on to explain that SOME cars were stamped on the frame but not all.We have had a couple of instances where the engine and running gear were sold to make room for a rod drivetrain.Guys tried to use the numbers on the frame,only to find the engine number was already in use.The Highway Patrol,formerly DOT,would come out and check things out.As a rod they are issued a new number,there is a procedure for that,the hardest part is staying home to meet the guy,and forking over the $25.or so.If there is no intent to defraud or hide stolen stuff they really don't care.There is no tax money or titling involved here.Unless there is good reason for them to believe things were stolen the car stays in your garage.They don't want to run the risk of having to pay for towing,storage,and bringing it back in the same cond.if you have done nothing criminal.We register our cars here,antique,composites,or rods,to the year it most resembles.I don't know of any situations where two people have tried to register two antiques using the same number.From my experience with the Highway Patrol issuing numbers I would bet a thousand dollars he would investigate,determine there was nothing stolen,no attempts to defraud or hide something,get a feel for the two parties involved,then give them some time to work it out.If they can't he can issue a number to the frame car.They stop short of telling you to get a junk block and use the numbers,but,as they told me,intent is what they are concerned with.They have told me that if I ever intend to sell the car out-of-state I should stamp numbers in other places.It will ease the pain for the next guy.

[MCHinson]

Interesting question but since it is impossible for both guys to apply for a title at exactly the same millisecond, whichever one was "first in line" to claim the number would get it and the second one in line would be told that number is already issued.

As a practical matter, whichever applicant's application was the first one entered in the DMV computer would get it, no matter which one we may think deserved it.

[BRENT in 10-uh-C]

OK Bruce, many states are not "title states", --meaning after a vehicle reaches a certain age, the State does not issue a Certificate of Title. Often times replacement titles are applied for fraudently by restorers who perjure themselves at the clerk's office or DMV. And, confusing that is the fact that I am told some states did not issue Titles when the Model A was sold brand new.

Gar, I got one for you. DMV has required Model A owners to use us on occasion to "lift a body" to verify the VIN for them. Guess what we have NOT found! On several occasions, no numbers could be taken because they have been obscured due to rust and pitting. A discussion between DMV officials determined that some kind of acid they use would not reveal tampering and because the engine number matched what was on the Bill of Sale, ...they issued a Title using that number. What does your State do when no numbers are there due to something non-fraudulant occuring??

Ward, while I cannot say what Arizona may --or may not do in court with this specific matter, however what you may not realize is back in the day, the proper protocol issued by Ford and the DMV was when a replacement item (i.e.: Frame or Engine) was to be installed, it was to be (re)stamped by the mechanic. KRWilson was a supplier of the proper stamps and these were used by many shops to make it "numbers matching". Many states do not necessarily share the same sentiment that the Frame does the trumping. How would they view the scenario like I just cited above??


.

[denis4x4]

I have three Model A powered cars registered in Colorado. One uses the frame number, another one uses the engine number and the last one is a bonded title with a state issued VIN. No easy answer here, depends on the DMV office as to what works. I might add that Hagarty uses the numbers issued by DMV as ID on their policies.

[Kevin in NJ]

In the state of NJ I had a similar discussion with the title department.

The first person to apply gets the number.

The second person will get a number made up by the state.

The question revolves around a hot rod that used the A body and purchased none Ford Chassis. The number was already in the system so they would have to issue a new number. Someone had the engine and frame with matching numbers from that body used to make the rod.

BUT,

If two cars were made from that number in different states then you tried to bring them into the same state you would then find the second one gets a new number too.

Imagine if two cars with the same number by different states. One gets stolen and a match comes up on the system when they check. Someone is going to get a knock on the door.

The system is not perfect. In some places it is easy to get a car registered and other places are just unrealistic. The old numbers just do not play well with others.

[ford1]

the guy with the frame, it has been determined engines are eaisly replacable and are, frames are not

[ford1]

and to add to my statement one just has an engine the other has a car, so the car owner gets the title

[Rowdy]

That all depends on the state. here in Nebraska the state only recognizes the engine # on all pre48 cars. There is also a clause in the law here that reads something to the affect that a frame change is cause to apply for an "Assembled Vehicle title" . Very few in the state including the local Sherriffs office (who do the inspections" know or understand the law, so many things are done contrary to the letter of the law. Rod

[Big D]

Originally Posted by Keith True

I think every state would be different. We still use the Branham bible,that was published for town clerks and the DMV stating location of numbers,weights,number.of cyls.doors,body models,etc.On the A it states the engine number is the serial number.Period.There is a picture showing the pad and what the stamping should look like,describing the stars on the ends.It goes on to explain that SOME cars were stamped on the frame but not all.We have had a couple of instances where the engine and running gear were sold to make room for a rod drivetrain.Guys tried to use the numbers on the frame,only to find the engine number was already in use.The Highway Patrol,formerly DOT,would come out and check things out.As a rod they are issued a new number,there is a procedure for that,the hardest part is staying home to meet the guy,and forking over the $25.or so.If there is no intent to defraud or hide stolen stuff they really don't care.There is no tax money or titling involved here.Unless there is good reason for them to believe things were stolen the car stays in your garage.They don't want to run the risk of having to pay for towing,storage,and bringing it back in the same cond.if you have done nothing criminal.We register our cars here,antique,composites,or rods,to the year it most resembles.I don't know of any situations where two people have tried to register two antiques using the same number.From my experience with the Highway Patrol issuing numbers I would bet a thousand dollars he would investigate,determine there was nothing stolen,no attempts to defraud or hide something,get a feel for the two parties involved,then give them some time to work it out.If they can't he can issue a number to the frame car.They stop short of telling you to get a junk block and use the numbers,but,as they told me,intent is what they are concerned with.They have told me that if I ever intend to sell the car out-of-state I should stamp numbers in other places.It will ease the pain for the next guy.

Every State is different... While I have never ran into it when dealing with an A, Have built more than one motorcycle and trailer. If their is a title that list it as "Salvage" you should RUN... But if you have no title it will 1. get the number they find (or you show them) 2. Get a number made up (Had one for a motorcycle) from the State.

Just to add more mud into the water, no one has said anything about body numbers (which are ALWAYS different from Engine/Frame#). Given the lack of knowledge from most DMV agents, I would not be surprised to see a Gas Tank number or something else on a registration. We all know that how closely they look depends on how close to lunch or quitting time it is.. LOL

I think that "Billy Bob" and other "Bubba" would both get a title (One with a different Number), nether be charged with anything and Judge think he has more important things to listen to that day.

Hope all have a great weekend. D

[BRENT in 10-uh-C]

Originally Posted by ford1

and to add to my statement one just has an engine the other has a car, so the car owner gets the title

No, you missed the first part. One person has a Bill of Sale for an Engine ...and the other has a Bill of Sale for a Frame. Neither of these items would be considered a 'car'.

Guys, I will have to get back with you on how the actual arbitration goes in this but ironically no one really answered "why" or "how" they would plead their case if they were involved.

I will add that I don't doubt that Ward is correct in how Arizona reacts when something like this comes up but just as Rod pointed out, just because DMV has handled cases a certain way in the past does not necessarily mean the law is correctly being followed. Maybe there is no case law that mandates the proper protocol in the State. Under these circumstances, never try to second-guess how a Judge will rule because someone coming in with a convincing argument will likely be walking out with a judgment in their favor and a Model 'A' Title on its way in their name.

.

[Rowdy]

Here is a link to the state of Nebraska DMV. Under the letter of the law what can actually be done during restoration that does not fall into this criteria? Rod


http://www.dmv.ne.gov/dvr/mvtitles/assem.html

[Bruce Lancaster]

There might also be MORE people applying for same title here...
Model A engine numbers are routinely milled off by rebuilders (!) and then casually restamped by restorers (wait'll the feds start getting interested in car ID like they are now in drivers license ID!), so probably many A's have generated several copies of their serials over the years, now potentially the root of multiple title applications...
And, of course, the guy who sold the motor and title kept the body for his repro-framed streetrod, and kept with it the registration documents and bill of sale so HE could title his streetrod when it was done. He also stamped his now departed serial number on a repro briggs body plate, which was happily accepted as legit by an ignorant clerk...Lord, that whole line of people at the DMV window is carrying documents with the same number!!
Like I said, state drivers licenses have been brought into line with all sorts of required documents required by the Feds...(I was born in China, and had to ride the train in NJ for a long time til State Department acknowledged my existence!)
If they tighten VEHICLE requirements...all they need to do is require clerk/police/licensed official to actually look at the vehicle number AND univerally issue a book of locations and character styles.
Betcha 2/3 of the olde Fords in the country would be in deeeep do-do.
I own several frames with nice clear numbers...and since I am devious and sneaky I wrote up hand-scribbled bills of sale, signed by the seller, with the word "frame" at the end of a line short enough to allow scribbling in the serial of the frame I bought in case I ever need to document anything. I could get a bunch of streetrodders and myself into interesting legal waters!

[fordcragar]

I have a 28 RPU that came from California with an engine number of LBxxxxx, that is the number that the Washington State Patrol verified on the title when it was brought into Washington years ago. They didn't even look for a frame number. The officer that verified the number told me if I wanted to change the engine, bring the car back and they either find a frame number or put a number on the frame.

[Jazzjr]

have almost finished my Huckester wagon. I went to NYS DMV in July, I Have No Regstration, Titles did not exist in NY untill 1985 or after. The clerk told me to make a Tracing of the Engine #, an if the Frame # is different, re stamp it to match Engine.
Then get it weighed, and fill out Form NYS MV-272-1

http://www.dmv.com/ny/new-york/custo...e-registration

In another Thread I started this week http://www.fordbarn.com/forum/showthread.php?t=16153

Being that they can't find anything by a search of the Pick-up Registration I have. They told Me if I assemble another Truck, Bring the Registration I have, and do the same as above.

Then when these Registrations become Legal again, I will recieve a Title for each one.

Historical Registration and Usin Original Plates is also No Problem in NYS http://www.nydmv.state.ny.us/cpl8faqs.htm

[Aerocraft]

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"Gar, I got one for you. DMV has required Model A owners to use us on occasion to "lift a body" to verify the VIN for them. Guess what we have NOT found! On several occasions, no numbers could be taken because they have been obscured due to rust and pitting. A discussion between DMV officials determined that some kind of acid they use would not reveal tampering and because the engine number matched what was on the Bill of Sale, ...they issued a Title using that number. What does your State do when no numbers are there due to something non-fraudulent occurring??"

That is a good question that I don't know the answer to. I'll dig for it.

It was suggested by the Secretary of State Police that acid could be used to used to bring out a "rusty" number on the '28 Roadster although, as you, I have seen frames where the number is so badly corroded that even acid would not help.

As a sidebar, it is interesting that my early June 150B Station Wagon had no frame number when I disassembled it for restoration. Although it was a low mileage, one owner "farm" truck, I can only assume that it was a replacement frame. It now displays the correct VIN number which matches the engine and title.

In the case of my friend and his '28 Roadster, the number was a '28 number and seemed to me to be "within range"for the features on the car. The DMV required a bond and took the number for the title application. It will take several years before the bond is returned assuming that number won't show up in any other state. Gar Williams

[Rowdy]

Several Years on a bond??? As fast as I received mine, that is hard to beleive, but anything is possible. Rod

[barnstuf]

I had a real estate situation occur that may be of interest and value to the Model A situation. This is a true story! My Dad had a deed to a small parcel of land with pond frontage, dated in the early 1920's. In the 1960's the property fell within the boundaries of a newly established National Park. The property was on the town tax rolls and taxes were paid to the town over the years by Dad as long as he lived, by my mother until her death, and by myself after that. I the mid 1990's a friend tipped me off that a local resident was selling 14 acres of land to the National Park Service in the area of my property. I immediately went to Park Headquarters to check this out and much to my surprise I found that they were buying the 14 acre parcel, a deed search completed and the check drawn and ready to deliver the the land owner. I told them that my parcel was the pond frontage of the 14 acre parcel. They held up payment to the 14 acre owner, investigated and found that in the early 1920's the owner at the time had sold my parcel of pond frontage, and a few years later sold the larger parcel which included my land. The National Park service verified myself as true owner of the pond frontage as that sale was made first. The subsequent sale of acreage had a deed dated several years later and was valid only for the land area above and beyond my property rights. In this real estate case the date on the deed was the determining factor when the property was sold twice. The first sale was 100% valid, the second sale was valid only where it went beyond the scope of the first sale.

[peters180a/170b]

Hello "Rich" are you making Hershey ?

[Steve Plucker]

Brent,

It would be interesting if you were to draft a letter to the senario for which you have posted and submit it to each state and see just what kind of responces one would get and just how different they would be!

Pluck

[Mike V. Florida]

Originally Posted by peters180a/170b

Mike V. , Morning,,, Brent said they both had a bill of sale [no title]. I [being Billy Bob] would offer Bubba Ray $200.00 or what ever he had into the engine with a little profit .

He did say "use their Bill of Sale to apply for a replacement title." to get a replacement would not one have to have had one in the first place?

[Mike V. Florida]

Now you got me thinking and thinking, for me, is always dangerous.

What difference does it make it either one has a bill of sale?

If I go and buy a Ford 302 engine and take the bill of sale to the DMV what vehicle am I registering?

Same with the frame, I go out and buy a frame from some shop somewhere, what vehicle am I registering?

So to me, the questions is invalid since neither has a vehicle to register.

[Boston Bruce]

Getting a little off the topic but...

On the title for my 1930 coupe, the body assembly plant number that is stamped into the top of the front body cross member was/is used for the VIN. I don't know why that was done but that's what the Massachusetts title says.

[Roadster62]

Without reading any replies I would say the CHASSIS /FRAME owner has rights to the "Vehicle" and or "Title". the "Block-Engine" was removed from the "Vehicle" at some time, it is a part of a vehicle IMO. No crime was committed, so both "Vehicles" should be allowed to be regestered.

[msmaron]

Here in Illinois it is cut and dry NOW....The title is now based on the FRAME NUMBER ONLY!!! they can care less about the engine number,, IT is ALL the frame number, End of subject here..

[Rowdy]

Exactly, A Bill of Sale for a part is not the same as a Bill of Sale for the car. Rod

[Terry, NJ]

Many states are "Race" states. he who registers his deed first wins the race! Used to be that many folks were not above selling their property to more than one buyer (imagine that!) and the one who got to the courthouse first, with the deed won the litigation. I'm not sure how this would apply in an case involving automobiles. However, Possesion is always 9/10s of the law.
Terry

Originally Posted by barnstuf

I had a real estate situation occur that may be of interest and value to the Model A situation. This is a true story! My Dad had a deed to a small parcel of land with pond frontage, dated in the early 1920's. In the 1960's the property fell within the boundaries of a newly established National Park. The property was on the town tax rolls and taxes were paid to the town over the years by Dad as long as he lived, by my mother until her death, and by myself after that. I the mid 1990's a friend tipped me off that a local resident was selling 14 acres of land to the National Park Service in the area of my property. I immediately went to Park Headquarters to check this out and much to my surprise I found that they were buying the 14 acre parcel, a deed search completed and the check drawn and ready to deliver the the land owner. I told them that my parcel was the pond frontage of the 14 acre parcel. They held up payment to the 14 acre owner, investigated and found that in the early 1920's the owner at the time had sold my parcel of pond frontage, and a few years later sold the larger parcel which included my land. The National Park service verified myself as true owner of the pond frontage as that sale was made first. The subsequent sale of acreage had a deed dated several years later and was valid only for the land area above and beyond my property rights. In this real estate case the date on the deed was the determining factor when the property was sold twice. The first sale was 100% valid, the second sale was valid only where it went beyond the scope of the first sale.

[jimalabam]

Brent: Boy you opened a large can of worms here. Must be at lease forty to 50 different answers, as each State and some local DMVs have their own rules. You stated GA as a non-title state. Ugh - just try to get one for pre 68 vehicles. Yes, it can be and is done. BUT they accept only the frame number. Regards Jim...

[john charlton]

I know this has no bearing on this discussion. In England the frame number IS the vehicle. The engine is regarded as a consumable .

John in glorious weather ( would I lie to you ) England.