Put 3 point retractable seat belts in roadster

[Lona]

I searched the forum for info on 3 point seat belts for a 31 roadster but found little to help. Figuring it out, I installed the retractor mechanisms in the rumble seat compartment and modified the package shelf to allow the belts to slide through and over the seat back. The retractor ends are bolted to the outside body to frame bolts under the seat and the short belts are bolted through the channel under the seat.
Unfortunately, the forum will only upload one photo, probably because they are too large. I'd be glad to load more detailed installation photos if someone can tell me how to reduce the size of the photos taken on my iPad or show me some way to upload more than one at a time. If anyone is interested, should I just start new threads for each photo with an explanation for each one?

This roadster is new to us and I wanted to provide reasonable protection against my wife or me eating the steering wheel or slamming our heads through the windshield if we only used regular lap belts. The roadster seat back is bolted to the body top and bottom and should stay put in an accident. The 3 point belts engage quickly and easily so our bodies should remain firmly against the seat back and away from rhe wheel or glass if we hit anything. I installed laps only in my 31 Chrysler sedan and am concerned every time I drive it.

Glen

[hardtimes]

Hey Glen,
I LIKE your thinking, i.e- safety. That's why I installed seat belts also. But, I'm unsure that what you have done can be done. On a sedan, I've seen shoulder straps put in...anchor on upright pillar and reinforced with steel..during restoration. I'm hoping that you/wife have good results with this setup
Myself, I've decided to up my defensive driving by doubleing following distances, anticipating others doing bad things at intersections,etc, etc....Good luck

BTW...I've got a '30 roadster and that's what I have seat belts in.

[Brian T]

I have thought about a 3 point belt system for some time for our double A , so I set about it at the start of the year, I mocked up some ideas with cardboard templates and came up with this set up, changing things as I went along, it was a 2 phase project which included a new seat
arrangement for more room and driving comfort, (did I really say comfort) I certainly feel a lot more secure.
Brian.

[Lona]

Nice installation, Brian. Looks like you put a lot of thought into coming up with a secure way of installing 3 point belts for your AA. Glad to see you have the pivot point above the seat rather than having the actuator on the floor with the belts just coming over the seat back.... a recipe for a crushed spine in an accident. I guess we are ingenious bastards when we take the time to evaluate various possible solutions and eventually settle on something that will work. Like you, I spent many hours trying to figure out how to do it before starting.

There are many threads on the forum regarding installation of lap belts but nothing regarding the far safer 3 point ones. Lets hope our photos will get others interested in fInding ways to install them in their own cars. My installation was for a roadster but should work equally well in a coupe. I'm now trying to figure how to install them in my 31 Chrysler sedan which would apply to the A sedans also. I share this info in the hope some lives can be saved or serious injury avoided.

Glen

[Fishercat]

Very Nice, I am considering seat belts for my roadster and this method looks like a great option.

[bettlesr]

Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)

I came across this site a while back. Might be a good place to get custom lenght belts made.
https://www.seatbeltplanet.com/seatb...-lap-shoulder/

[Ted Duke]

I'm looking for ideas. I am considering installing what they call 4 point seat belts (straps over each shoulder that meet at one point in the back and a lap belt in my 1929 Rdstr PU.

As shown here: http://wescoperformance.stores.yahoo.net/am4point.html

Question: I'd like to have the anchor point be shoulder height or have a pivot point as Glen mentioned above. Any idea, suggestions welcomed.

Ted

[Tiny]

If the 3rd point is below your shoulder you are looking at more injuries in a wreck than if you only had lap belts. That seat belt will crush your spine!!

[spinelll]

Glen

I'd like to see more pics.
1. Copy the images to your PC.
2. Open an image in the Microsoft Paint Brush app.
3. In the top corner of the Paint Brush menu, press "Resize."
4. Change the Horizontal and Vertical to 20.
5. Press File->Save as and save with a new name (ex. pic1_small.jpg).
6. Repeat steps 2-5.
7. Re-attach the pics to your post.

[Pete]

Originally Posted by Ted Duke

I'm looking for ideas. I am considering installing what they call 4 point seat belts (straps over each shoulder that meet at one point in the back and a lap belt in my 1929 Rdstr PU.

As shown here: http://wescoperformance.stores.yahoo.net/am4point.html

Question: I'd like to have the anchor point be shoulder height or have a pivot point as Glen mentioned above. Any idea, suggestions welcomed.

Ted

Take a look at various racing association rules. They are online.

[Ted Duke]

Originally Posted by Pete

Take a look at various racing association rules. They are online.

Tiny,

I know.

Pete, Thanks, I'll check that out.

Ted

[Lona]

Re: installing 3 point seat belts in a "31 roadster.

Thanks to Spinelll for info on reducing the size of my photos to get them to fit the forum format.
Photo one shows the roadster package shelf. It was originally covered with a vinyl flap which was stapled to the rear of the back seat, pulled over the shelf and tucked up behind the vinyl covered vertical at the rear of the shelf. The objective was to mount the belt retractors in the rumble compartment and to provide some way to get the end of the belts into the driver's area without binding on anything. This was done by removing the front piece of the shelf, covering it and the remaining fixed part of the shelf with vinyl cut from the original flap (contact glue). Then, spacers were installed between the two shelf pieces to provide about a 3/8" slot for the belts to slide through. I used pieces of 1/2" copper tubing to give a smooth travel for the belts. The outboard bolt holes were reused and another inboard hole was drilled in the shelf to accommodate the width of the belt plus some slop. By the way, notice the extra factory holes in the removable part of the shelf. Using these holes would allow the seat back to be pushed rearward to provide more legroom for those tall A drivers.

Photo two shows the spacers being installed and photo three shows the completed shelf.

Photo four shows the rumble area anchor locations. I felt mounting the retractor to the vertical support nearest the back seat would not provide enough strength and might pull out in an accident. A piece of 3/16" x 2" flat steel was used to tie the front and rear vertical supports together such that both would have to fail at the same time.

Photo five shows the retractor mounted to the flat steel in the rumble area. Careful when choosing retractors as most suppliers state they must be mounted in a vertical position only. After checking with Wescoperformance regarding mounting them horizontally, they checked with their manufacturer and assured me the retractors would work in any position they were mounted.

Photo six shows the floor mountings. The outboard belts were secured to the frame bolts. The center mounts go through the channel under the seat and are backed with a steel plate. I'm having second thoughts on whether that channel could buckle upward in an accident so I'll be bolting the channel itself down through the pan and into steel angle iron mounted across the frame. I am not pleased with the way I had to position the "L" brackets for the belts because they are not in line with the force exerted on them. However, the main steel bottom rear rail of the seat interferes with the brackets if they are turned in the proper direction. Need to rethink how they can be turned while at the same time not compromising the integrity of the seat.

I originally considered using 4 point belts but they are rather restricting plus, on double belt models, two anchor points per belt are needed rearward and one centered directly behind the occupant's back for the models with a single rear belt. I couldn't find how to do this without extensive metal bracing in the rumble compartment.

For Ted and his pickup, I am unfamiliar with the support structure available in that model but you might check with Brian T who solved the problem in his AA which might be similar.

Please understand that my installation may not be foolproof and I accept no responsibility or liability for anyone who chooses to follow my installation. Every owner who installs seat belts is doing him(her)self a favor in the name of safety but must take full responsibility for their own particular installation.

Glen

[jmeckel]

There is more to vehicle safety than just seat belts. These cars were never designed to anything close to modern safety specs. If you are installing seat belts, you also need to have seats that do not crush or break under expected impact forces... The seat belts need to be attached to parts of the vehicle that can withstand the amount of force that is going to be placed on them in a "typical" accident. Your anchor points also need to be carefully selected to not distort in a way that causes more injury's by pulling on the belt... and this is just part of the list.

I want to make something clear about my opinion on seat belts. In MODERN cars they save lives, no question. I have 26 years of working on a ambulance and have been at more major accidents than I can remember or count. I have seen seat belts save lives and reduce injury's every time. I have only unbuckled 1 dead body from a seat belt and that was a car that was hit broadside in the drivers door by a fully loaded semi going 55mph.

Having said that I do not think seat belts in a Model A is the best idea unless the placement is engineered and the proper designed mounts are used. The seats are redesigned to take the forces...The amount of forces that come into play in a crash are huge.

Just putting seat belts in an A whatever way they seem to fit best has about as much safety as putting a seat belt on a motorcycle. Not something I would want to wear.

[Ted Duke]

Originally Posted by jmeckel

There is more to vehicle safety than just seat belts. These cars were never designed to anything close to modern safety specs. If you are installing seat belts, you also need to have seats that do not crush or break under expected impact forces... The seat belts need to be attached to parts of the vehicle that can withstand the amount of force that is going to be placed on them in a "typical" accident. Your anchor points also need to be carefully selected to not distort in a way that causes more injury's by pulling on the belt... and this is just part of the list.

I want to make something clear about my opinion on seat belts. In MODERN cars they save lives, no question. I have 26 years of working on a ambulance and have been at more major accidents than I can remember or count. I have seen seat belts save lives and reduce injury's every time. I have only unbuckled 1 dead body from a seat belt and that was a car that was hit broadside in the drivers door by a fully loaded semi going 55mph.

Having said that I do not think seat belts in a Model A is the best idea unless the placement is engineered and the proper designed mounts are used. The seats are redesigned to take the forces...The amount of forces that come into play in a crash are huge.

Just putting seat belts in an A whatever way they seem to fit best has about as much safety as putting a seat belt on a motorcycle. Not something I would want to wear.

Jon,

I don't have the experience you have, only drove an ambulance 3 years, but I have been driving 62 years and have seem way too many accidents where people were thrown out of "minor" accidents and badly injured or killed.

I will be driving on backroads, and local US highways at 45 to 50 mph, and NEVER on the interstates and I think a sideswipe where I couldn't get out of the way of the "city guy" who doesn't move back to his side of the road is the BIG danger.

IMHO if it's a minor accident I want to be in a seat belt to keep me in the car. If it's a t-bone or a head-on than I don't think it will matter.

my 2 1/2 cents worth

Ted

I don't know if there's a safe way to put in a belt with over the shoulder belt in a RDSTR PU, but I will seek to find out. If not, a lap belt will be installed.

[Chuck Sea/Tac]

The lap belt will keep you in, but the steering wheel or hood will spear you in the chest or face, in a head on.

[Conaway2]

Originally Posted by Lona

Re: installing 3 point seat belts in a "31 roadster.

Thanks to Spinelll for info on reducing the size of my photos to get them to fit the forum format.
Photo one shows the roadster package shelf. It was originally covered with a vinyl flap which was stapled to the rear of the back seat, pulled over the shelf and tucked up behind the vinyl covered vertical at the rear of the shelf. The objective was to mount the belt retractors in the rumble compartment and to provide some way to get the end of the belts into the driver's area without binding on anything. This was done by removing the front piece of the shelf, covering it and the remaining fixed part of the shelf with vinyl cut from the original flap (contact glue). Then, spacers were installed between the two shelf pieces to provide about a 3/8" slot for the belts to slide through. I used pieces of 1/2" copper tubing to give a smooth travel for the belts. The outboard bolt holes were reused and another inboard hole was drilled in the shelf to accommodate the width of the belt plus some slop. By the way, notice the extra factory holes in the removable part of the shelf. Using these holes would allow the seat back to be pushed rearward to provide more legroom for those tall A drivers.

Photo two shows the spacers being installed and photo three shows the completed shelf.

Photo four shows the rumble area anchor locations. I felt mounting the retractor to the vertical support nearest the back seat would not provide enough strength and might pull out in an accident. A piece of 3/16" x 2" flat steel was used to tie the front and rear vertical supports together such that both would have to fail at the same time.

Photo five shows the retractor mounted to the flat steel in the rumble area. Careful when choosing retractors as most suppliers state they must be mounted in a vertical position only. After checking with Wescoperformance regarding mounting them horizontally, they checked with their manufacturer and assured me the retractors would work in any position they were mounted.

Photo six shows the floor mountings. The outboard belts were secured to the frame bolts. The center mounts go through the channel under the seat and are backed with a steel plate. I'm having second thoughts on whether that channel could buckle upward in an accident so I'll be bolting the channel itself down through the pan and into steel angle iron mounted across the frame. I am not pleased with the way I had to position the "L" brackets for the belts because they are not in line with the force exerted on them. However, the main steel bottom rear rail of the seat interferes with the brackets if they are turned in the proper direction. Need to rethink how they can be turned while at the same time not compromising the integrity of the seat.

I originally considered using 4 point belts but they are rather restricting plus, on double belt models, two anchor points per belt are needed rearward and one centered directly behind the occupant's back for the models with a single rear belt. I couldn't find how to do this without extensive metal bracing in the rumble compartment.

For Ted and his pickup, I am unfamiliar with the support structure available in that model but you might check with Brian T who solved the problem in his AA which might be similar.

Please understand that my installation may not be foolproof and I accept no responsibility or liability for anyone who chooses to follow my installation. Every owner who installs seat belts is doing him(her)self a favor in the name of safety but must take full responsibility for their own particular installation.

Glen

I like this installation very much, and would like to do a similar installation on my roadster. Where did you find the seatbelts and hardware, and what length belts did you need ?

Thanks - JIm

[Lona]

Originally Posted by Conaway2

I like this installation very much, and would like to do a similar installation on my roadster. Where did you find the seatbelts and hardware, and what length belts did you need ?

Thanks - JIm

Jim,
As mentioned in the article, I bought the retractors, belts and hardware from Westcoperformance If you plan to use this kind of installation, I urge you to contact them to make absolutely sure they can still furnish belt retractors that can function properly in any position. In this installation, they are horizontally mounted. Most of them on the market only work when they are installed in the vertical or near vertical position. Since it was about five years ago, I don't recall the length of the belts. If you can't determine the length you need or what retractors to order, just pm me and I'll dig through my old receipts to see if I can get that info for you. I am always willing to help in any way I can to promote full lap and shoulder belts in any car and, if fact, have installed them in all of my antiques, including a sedan.

After all these years of using them, I am still pleased with the installation. They are just as easy to hook yourself into as a modern car and comfortable to use. Just hope I never have to test them. After all, it's still a Model A.

Glen

[ronn]

I agree with Jon on the seatbelt issue. In these cars the situation can go either way.

have known a situation of 4 young guys in an open jeep. one guy didnt have a seatbelt on and got thrown. he is the only one who lived in what ended up being a roll. He walked away.
tough call either way.

[Conaway2]

Originally Posted by Lona

Jim,
As mentioned in the article, I bought the retractors, belts and hardware from Westcoperformance If you plan to use this kind of installation, I urge you to contact them to make absolutely sure they can still furnish belt retractors that can function properly in any position. In this installation, they are horizontally mounted. Most of them on the market only work when they are installed in the vertical or near vertical position. Since it was about five years ago, I don't recall the length of the belts. If you can't determine the length you need or what retractors to order, just pm me and I'll dig through my old receipts to see if I can get that info for you. I am always willing to help in any way I can to promote full lap and shoulder belts in any car and, if fact, have installed them in all of my antiques, including a sedan.

After all these years of using them, I am still pleased with the installation. They are just as easy to hook yourself into as a modern car and comfortable to use. Just hope I never have to test them. After all, it's still a Model A.

Glen

Glen - thanks - I plan to contact the vendor tomorrow. I’ll PM you if I need any info. Thanks very much.
Jim

[Conaway2]

Glen - PM sent.

Thanks - Jim