Any electronic experts out there

[PalAl]

I am 12 volt neg. ground, have installed led front running lights/sequential turn signals. Running lights are white and powered on via a switch and turn amber when the turn signal is turned on and flash a sequential signal. With the car not running all lights work as they should, when the car is running the lights work fine for a very short time and then will go on and off switch to turn signal and do what ever they want. Simple hookup, fused power and ground. All connections are good, as I said all is fine until I start the engine. I am guessing some sort of interference and I need a "filter" (lack of better term) to stop the interference. Any idea of what "filter" I could use to block this?
PLEASE no scarcasm. We all do things to our cars for safety, uniqueness, points or just plain fun, I am asking for help Thanks

[Johnny Nitro]

I had the same problem with my turn signals. Put these on my plug wires, and it solved the problem. It’s only a stop gap until I can put together a larger suppression core ignition wire set.

Cedmon 20 Pieces Clip-on Ferrite... https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07CWCSNW9...p_mob_ap_share

If you’re using the exposed wire ignition then I’m not sure.

[shew01]

Originally Posted by PalAl

I am 12 volt neg. ground, have installed led front running lights/sequential turn signals. Running lights are white and powered on via a switch and turn amber when the turn signal is turned on and flash a sequential signal. With the car not running all lights work as they should, when the car is running the lights work fine for a very short time and then will go on and off switch to turn signal and do what ever they want. Simple hookup, fused power and ground. All connections are good, as I said all is fine until I start the engine. I am guessing some sort of interference and I need a "filter" (lack of better term) to stop the interference. Any idea of what "filter" I could use to block this?
PLEASE no scarcasm. We all do things to our cars for safety, uniqueness, points or just plain fun, I am asking for help Thanks

By any chance, are you using an electronic flasher?

I had a similar problem with my electronic flasher and LED tail lights. The flasher worked perfectly with the engine off and went nuts with the engine on. I wrapped the flasher with several layers of tin foil, and that helped a bit. But, it didn’t fix the flasher. I returned the flasher to the vendor.

I went back to a new thermal flasher from Bratton’s. It blinked irregularly, but it at least worked (for a few weeks). Then, it died.

Some folks recommend a NOS 535 thermal flasher, which I currently have installed (from eBay). It kinda works. The blink is still sometimes irregular, and the indicator lamp seldom works on my Signal Stat turn signal switch. I use my cowl lights as turn signals. Adding an electrical “load” with 10 CP bulbs (instead of stock 3 CP bulbs) in the cowl lights helped stabilize the 535 flasher, but the flasher still does not work quite right. However, the blink is safe enough to drive.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[PalAl]

Originally Posted by Johnny Nitro

I had the same problem with my turn signals. Put these on my plug wires, and it solved the problem. It’s only a stop gap until I can put together a larger suppression core ignition wire set.

Cedmon 20 Pieces Clip-on Ferrite... https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07CWCSNW9...p_mob_ap_share

If you’re using the exposed wire ignition then I’m not sure.

Johnny Nitro thanks for the info, I am running the old style dist. cap and strip plug connectors and modern points. I will switch to a modern cap and wires and give the noise suppressors a try.
Johnny what do you mean by a larger suppression core ignition wire set?

[PalAl]

Originally Posted by shew01

By any chance, are you using an electronic flasher?

I had a similar problem with my electronic flasher and LED tail lights. The flasher worked perfectly with the engine off and went nuts with the engine on. I wrapped the flasher with several layers of tin foil, and that helped a bit. But, it didn’t fix the flasher. I returned the flasher to the vendor.

I went back to a new thermal flasher from Bratton’s. It blinked irregularly, but it at least worked (for a few weeks). Then, it died.

Some folks recommend a NOS 535 thermal flasher, which I currently have installed (from eBay). It kinda works. The blink is still sometimes irregular, and the indicator lamp seldom works on my Signal Stat turn signal switch. I use my cowl lights as turn signals. Adding an electrical “load” with 10 CP bulbs (instead of stock 3 CP bulbs) in the cowl lights helped stabilize the 535 flasher, but the flasher still does not work quite right. However, the blink is safe enough to drive.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Shew01, I am using a thermo flasher with LED rear lights (turn,tail and brake) and also a third brake light with signals, rear lights have load resistors. Front turn signals are also LED running/driving lights. The in line resistors, Snyders A-13464 solved the flashing problem for me. Have also considered turning my parking lights to turn signals. (Two-lite headlights)
Being in the country and driving dark roads on the return ride from tours I want to be very visible.

[PalAl]

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Thanks to Johnny Nitro and Shew01 for the information supplied.
Any other ideas from you Barners please jump in. THANKS

[Badpuppy]

535 is a 6V flasher. 550 for 12V. Thermal flashers require 1-2A draw to operate, so add
an extra incandescent to the circuit. If above doesn't work try a 5A diode between coil and lamp supply. Could be back EMF from the coil.

[PalAl]

Thanks Badpuppy, I am using the 550 with load resistors and have a nice steady flash.
The "noise" from the ignition is what I believe is messing with my front turn signals/driving lights. Going to switch to a modern cap and wires with the "noise suppessors" that Johnny Nitro suggested.

[emf]

Every time a switch (in this case, a set of points) opens and closes, RF noise is generated. Add that to the original, uninsulated, unshielded copper spark plug wires and you have an antenna emitting high energy noise into the engine compartment. If you want to run modern electronics, you MUST remove the noise. Shielded spark plug wires and a modern style cap are a must. I know it's not for the purist, but most of your problems will go away...


Frank

[30 Closed Cab PU]

Originally Posted by emf

Every time a switch (in this case, a set of points) opens and closes, RF noise is generated. Add that to the original, uninsulated, unshielded copper spark plug wires and you have an antenna emitting high energy noise into the engine compartment. If you want to run modern electronics, you MUST remove the noise. Shielded spark plug wires and a modern style cap are a must. I know it's not for the purist, but most of your problems will go away...


Frank

X2.


Was reading the reviews, some complained they did not help with LED shop style lighting. These will only help with noise generated/emanating from the wiring they are attached to. In LED lighting where the noise is in the fixture and not in the power cord and wiring directly attached to the power cord, they will not work. Basically the ferrite material in the cores (they are not a magnet) absorbs the high frequency energy that cause the interference.

[30 Closed Cab PU]

Originally Posted by emf

Every time a switch (in this case, a set of points) opens and closes, RF noise is generated. Add that to the original, uninsulated, unshielded copper spark plug wires and you have an antenna emitting high energy noise into the engine compartment. If you want to run modern electronics, you MUST remove the noise. Shielded spark plug wires and a modern style cap are a must. I know it's not for the purist, but most of your problems will go away...


Frank

Frank, Sounds like you have experience in automotive electical noise theory/design.
I am not familiar with automotive, but have experience with electrical and electronic noise testing/shielding/emissions/circuit design in electronics.



Since a car's noise in the A is a circuit completed by spark at the rotor and spark plug, does putting a ferrite core on the coil wire efficiently reduce electrical noise on the coil wire and plug leads?



Thanks

[Big hammer]

Originally Posted by PalAl

I am 12 volt neg. ground, have installed led front running lights/sequential turn signals. Running lights are white and powered on via a switch and turn amber when the turn signal is turned on and flash a sequential signal. With the car not running all lights work as they should, when the car is running the lights work fine for a very short time and then will go on and off switch to turn signal and do what ever they want. Simple hookup, fused power and ground. All connections are good, as I said all is fine until I start the engine. I am guessing some sort of interference and I need a "filter" (lack of better term) to stop the interference. Any idea of what "filter" I could use to block this?
PLEASE no scarcasm. We all do things to our cars for safety, uniqueness, points or just plain fun, I am asking for help Thanks

Very interesting light set up, would like to see pictures of them working engine off. I'am wonder if a separate power source not being charged by the A if that would work ? At least try ?

[ryanheacox]

Yup, I put LEDs in my parking light sockets and they work fine with the engine off but at an idle they look like a strobe light. Interestingly enough, raising the revs to a fast idle or higher makes that stop. In my case I'm wondering if the ignition is drawing enough power to drop the voltage below the dropout voltage of the LEDs every time the points close. Then the gen kicks in and gives them enough juice?


Anyway.. sorry for the tangent. I wouldn't think there would be any issue with interference with a thermal flasher. Do your rear signal lights behave just as erratically or is it just the fronts?

[rotorwrench]

LEDs work with very little problems until they are used in a situation where a light has to blink on and off.

The old sequential turn signals used in the Thunderbirds and Mercury Cougars back in the 60s were operated by an electric motor that turned the lights on and off with a cam action switch and they were relatively reliable. When they try to use modern electronics, things can be problematic. Where some of these designs come from may have something to do with it. LEDs used in turn signal applications have problems with flasher units for reasons already mentioned. The electronic breakers for those are also questionable about origin and quality.

While ignition noise may have an effect, it may not be your problem. To replace an entire ignition system only to realize it doesn't fix the problem could be expensive in more ways than one. When a car is off, the battery carries the load. When a car is operational, the generator or alternator carries the load and there are more loads in operation so it's harder to tell where the problem is coming from. RF noise from ignition systems usually only affects radios since they are basic receivers and they pick up the noise through the antenna. The LED systems can also have an affect on radio reception but I don't know about the other way around.

A lot of it may have more to do with how the generator or alternator carries the load. Does the car still have a generator or is it now an alternator? Alternators are designed to completely change the AC current they generate to DC current but they don't always do as good a job as we would like. Sometimes a bit of the AC gets through depending on the condition of the diode bridge inside.

[30 Closed Cab PU]

Deleted double post

[30 Closed Cab PU]

Originally Posted by ryanheacox

Yup, I put LEDs in my parking light sockets and they work fine with the engine off but at an idle they look like a strobe light. Interestingly enough, raising the revs to a fast idle or higher makes that stop. In my case I'm wondering if the ignition is drawing enough power to drop the voltage below the dropout voltage of the LEDs every time the points close. Then the gen kicks in and gives them enough juice?


Anyway.. sorry for the tangent. I wouldn't think there would be any issue with interference with a thermal flasher. Do your rear signal lights behave just as erratically or is it just the fronts?

Ryan, Have you tried running dedicated grounds? Have heard that sometimes that strobing is caused in led lights because they require a good solid ground due to their low current draw.

[30 Closed Cab PU]

There is another option if your issue is due to radiated noise, and is not conducted noise through the wiring into the flasher unit.




You can try to shield the sensitive components. We do not know where your electronics is, but fab a shield using a few layers of aluminum foil that wraps entirely around the electronics. 1st try shield un-grounded, then try grounding the foil. This is something easy/quick to try to troubleshoot.



Just for kicks you additionally at the same time could try doing the same with the distributor body to attempt to reduce amount of radiated noise due to the rotor arcing. You would have to insulate the shield so the high tension and plug wires/etc do not short out the plugs.


I've often wondered the effect of resistive wires or resistor spark plug wire caps have on the quality of the spark plug spark. Old motor cycles use 5k ohm caps, Without the 5k ohm caps the plug spark seems more intense. So I wonder if these types of wires/caps affect the Model A performance, perhaps the plugs do not run as clean/etc?


If you really run into issues, perhaps try talking to an car stereo installer with experience on classic cars.

[ryanheacox]

Originally Posted by 30 Closed Cab PU

Ryan, Have you tried running dedicated grounds? Have heard that sometimes that strobing is caused in led lights because they require a good solid ground due to their low current draw.

Yup, I added dedicated grounds when I was testing out the LogoLites. Those didn't have any strobing issues. These bulbs were just cheapies from amazon, they work on 6-12V. I think the dropout voltage is right at 6V so there isn't much wiggle room if the generator isn't charging.

[emf]

Originally Posted by 30 Closed Cab PU

Frank, Sounds like you have experience in automotive electical noise theory/design.
I am not familiar with automotive, but have experience with electrical and electronic noise testing/shielding/emissions/circuit design in electronics.



Since a car's noise in the A is a circuit completed by spark at the rotor and spark plug, does putting a ferrite core on the coil wire efficiently reduce electrical noise on the coil wire and plug leads?



Thanks

I have some experience... Worked for 30 yeas as an electronics engineer. Not sure if a core placed on the coil wire would work, since the high energy bursts are also picked up by the bare copper strips. They will most likely receive RF as well as transmit it. Modern wires are carbon core rather than copper for that reason. You could try it and see if it works, but the RF is generated in the distributor where the wires are.



On grounding, When I put LED tail lights on my roadster, they failed within two months. I sent them to United Pacific and they replaced them. They said they had most likely failed due to a high power surge. Looking at the mounting for the generator, I suspected that the ground was poor, since it is only grounded through a single bolt. I then placed a heavy ground strap from the generator case to the nearest engine bolt and they have not failed in 5 years. I know this doesn't prove the surge theory, but it's enough for me...


Frank

[Johnny Nitro]

Originally Posted by PalAl

Johnny Nitro thanks for the info, I am running the old style dist. cap and strip plug connectors and modern points. I will switch to a modern cap and wires and give the noise suppressors a try.
Johnny what do you mean by a larger suppression core ignition wire set?

Right now, I have a copper core ignition wire set. I believe it’s 7mm. Modern ignition wires (although we’re at the point of coil on plug, so maybe not so modern anymore!) are designed to reduce interference from the ignition using shielded or suppression core. Not sure of the exact science behind it. I plan on making my own custom set of plug wires using 8mm suppression core! And seeing if that helps.

Oh, yeah, one more thing: I am using all led turn signals, a 7 wire vintage Yankee turnflex, and a dedicated made in USA led flasher module (CEC?)

Ferrite cores on my four plugs eliminated my erratic flash. The other option that worked was disconnecting the “P” wire from my three prong flasher, but then you lose the benefit of your turn signal unit indicators.

[PalAl]

Originally Posted by Big hammer

Very interesting light set up, would like to see pictures of them working engine off. I'am wonder if a separate power source not being charged by the A if that would work ? At least try ?

Hey Big Hammer I attached a link to the lights that has a video of them working, they can also be had from Amazon.

SOCAL-LED 2x Arrow LED DRL Switchback Strips 10" (25cm) 12V Sequential Flashing Turn Signal Lights, Dual-Color Amber White
by SOCAL-LED LIGHTING


The attached picture is how I mounted them on my car.

[PalAl]

Thanks to everyone who has tossed out ideas, I will be trying everything one by one and will let you all know what solves the problem.
Here is a link to Amazon that shows the lights

https://www.amazon.com/SOCAL-LED-Swi.../dp/B07KKNKX6J

and also this one that has a video of the light working, you may have to copy and paste this into your browser

SOCAL-LED 2x Arrow LED DRL Switchback Strips 10" (25cm) 12V Sequential Flashing Turn Signal Lights, Dual-Color Amber White
by SOCAL-LED LIGHTING

And this is the light mounted on my car

[Big hammer]

Nice lights for 12 volt A's �� I have 6volts☹️ Looking at their site SoCal, they have flicker Eliminator's for HID headlights, just maybe SoCal led might help you?

[PalAl]

Thought I would keep ya all updated on my progress.
Tried putting power feed and ground right to battery, thought it might act as a sort of cushion. NO CHANGE

Changed to a modern Dist. cap and wires including the coil wire. NO CHANGE

Changed out all the wires with RF Suppression wires. NO Change

Covered the control box with foil. NO CHANGE

Going to try some resistor spark plugs...................

Looking into wire shielding................

Going to get an old AM radio near the enging and see I I still have RF noise
I'm running out of ideas
Please keep yours coming

Signals and DRL still work great until the enging starts running?????

[Bill G]

Dang, PalAl, you are going to be into this a bloody fortune by the time you are done reinventing the electrical system. Maybe the turn signal/running lights just aren't engineered with the noisy Model A.

For all the electrical and RF noise in a Model A, you can't beat incandescent lights - or LED's that are properly designed.

[CarlG]

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Not really sure why, but I have all LED lights, Tail, Stop/Turn on the rear; Cowl/Turn on the front with switchback bulbs, all driven with a SignalStat 900 switch & an electronic 3-prong flasher, and everything works perfectly whether the engine is running or not. 12v 1 wire alternator, stock distributor with modern wires.

I also have LED headlights by JDMastar, no problem there either.

Go figure!

[PalAl]

Originally Posted by Bill G

Dang, PalAl, you are going to be into this a bloody fortune by the time you are done reinventing the electrical system. Maybe the turn signal/running lights just aren't engineered with the noisy Model A.

For all the electrical and RF noise in a Model A, you can't beat incandescent lights - or LED's that are properly designed.

Ya Bill your right but I have to figure this out, I'm not one to retreat...lol
This will most likely be an easy fix in the end. I hope

[PalAl]

Carl I have all LED rear (two taillights) with load resistors and a third brake light, LED front turn lights and they worked fine on 6v Pos. ground with an alt. I am now 12v neg. ground with an alt. and the rear still works fine. I sure do have a gremlin hiding in the new front DRL/turn lights. Going to try an isolated 12v power source for grins today and an electronic flasher. May just have to shield the wires for this unit????
I shall overcome.................I think

[30 Closed Cab PU]

Try disconnecting the alternator. Perhaps it has a problem. Just trying to think outside of the box - had a car that the lights would flicker and it was the alternator. Probably does not make complete sense, but this would remove one variable.

[PalAl]

Originally Posted by 30 Closed Cab PU

Try disconnecting the alternator. Perhaps it has a problem. Just trying to think outside of the box - had a car that the lights would flicker and it was the alternator. Probably does not make complete sense, but this would remove one variable.

Can you disconnect the alternator and run the engine without causing the alternator to have a voltage spike and damage it?

Or did you mean to remove the fan belt to disconnect the alternator?

[Badpuppy]

Originally Posted by 30 Closed Cab PU

Try disconnecting the alternator. Perhaps it has a problem. Just trying to think outside of the box - had a car that the lights would flicker and it was the alternator. Probably does not make complete sense, but this would remove one variable.

Don't disconnect for very long, will overheat.

[Badpuppy]

Originally Posted by PalAl

Can you disconnect the alternator and run the engine without causing the alternator to have a voltage spike and damage it?

Or did you mean to remove the fan belt to disconnect the alternator?

Yeah, let the engine overheat. Easier to fix.

[katy]

had a car that the lights would flicker and it was the alternator.

Had the same problem and it turned out to be a loose wire inside the alternator.

[PalAl]

Ok........ all my other rear tail, turn and brake LED lights are working fine, the front DRL/sequential turn led lights work with the engine not running but go nuts with the enging running, DRL flash, turn signals go on both left and right or just one side etc.

Just tried connecting the power and ground for these LED lights to an external 12 volt battery, DRL worked fine turned on the car battery to use the turn signals... they worked fine.
Started the engine they all go crazy flashing and blinking............
Back to the drawing board

[Badpuppy]

So RFI appears to be the problem. Best to attack the cause with resistor wires/ferrite beads if possible, otherwise replace the signal wires with shielded wire. Ground all the shields at one end Grounding both ends can cause shield currents which can also cause interference.

Before going to all that work, try replacing the distributor capacitor, or find someone who can test yours. Another thought, a similar capacitor across each LED assembly may help.

[Big hammer]

Originally Posted by PalAl

Ok........ all my other rear tail, turn and brake LED lights are working fine, the front DRL/sequential turn led lights work with the engine not running but go nuts with the enging running, DRL flash, turn signals go on both left and right or just one side etc.

Just tried connecting the power and ground for these LED lights to an external 12 volt battery, DRL worked fine turned on the car battery to use the turn signals... they worked fine.
Started the engine they all go crazy flashing and blinking............
Back to the drawing board

Give SoCal LEDs a call, I'll bet they have gone through this problem before!

[Badpuppy]

Yet another option - run ground return wires in parallel with each signal wire. Do not connect LED end to chassis. RFI in both wires should cancel each other.

[30 Closed Cab PU]

Originally Posted by PalAl

Can you disconnect the alternator and run the engine without causing the alternator to have a voltage spike and damage it?

Or did you mean to remove the fan belt to disconnect the alternator?

Good point, I would do both belt and wiring. I am assuming it has the issue all the time, but as Badpuppy notes would not let it run for more than a few minutes in case it wants to overheat.

[PalAl]

All seems so simple
RED wire to ACC. or in my case a switch This is for DRL
White wire is fused to power Puts power to control box
Black wire GROUND
Yellow (TWO) to turn signal feed left and right
All these wire go into the control box, left and right turn signal come out of the other end of the box and go to LED Strip.
SIMPLE

Would seem to me I would want to shield each wire going to the control box and not the plug in wires to the led strips from the opposite side of the box . Seems like the RIF is creating false signals going into the box......... right
UGG my brain is starting to smoke
Going to try all suggestions, some parts on order

One of my Model A "buddies?" told me it's a Model A Keep It Simple Stupid
I will argue that when I solve this...lol

[Kevin in NJ]

In reading instructions for installing 1930's car radios in cars they recommend a much tighter gap between the rotor and the dist cap to reduce interference.

[[email protected]]

Al,
Are use using “un LEDed” fuel ? Maybe still low on blinker fluid?

[PalAl]

Originally Posted by [email protected]

Al,
Are use using “un LEDed” fuel ? Maybe still low on blinker fluid?

Good one Dave, you have to much time on your hands...LOL

To all you Barners that have followed and had suggestions to help solve my dilemma, I threw in the towel tonight, LED DRL are supposed to be on when car is running, they go off when the turn signal is put on and that signal is sequential and when the turn signal cancels the DRL's go back on. Simple wiring and it works like a charm until the car is running! I have tried everything (except the thing that would make it work) Tonight I wired in the DLR's and will install another set of LED front turn lights. The trouble has something to do with the sequential part of the signal, when I isolated the signal from the DRL I got them working.... in front! Then the back would light but not blink! That was it for me!! I think Ole Henry is hexing me for messing with his car! Planning on using the leftover parts for target practice just to make me feel like I won the battle.... which I didn't.
Win some ......lose some

[Badpuppy]

Aw, PalAl, never say die.

Could be the "backflash" from the ignition coil is killing the power to the control module. If so, a 5A diode between the coil and flasher/switch/acc/control supply would block it. (Diode band opposite the coil side.)

Target practice does relieve stress, though.