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Old 04-07-2013, 02:25 PM   #1
Deluxe Delivery Don
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Default When is Model A Car or Truck classified has Restored or Unrestored?

My Question to all is where is the dividing line between a Restored Car or Truck and an Unrestored Car or Truck? If the Car or Truck has never been off the Frame but the Body and Fenders have been painted. ( and I mean painted like 50+ years ago) ,I think that this is considered an Older Restoration,even though it has not but off the frame. Can I get some input from you guys or opinions. Also is an Unrestored Car or Truck worth more than a Restored one?
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Old 04-07-2013, 03:04 PM   #2
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Default Re: When is Model A Car or Truck classified has Restored or Unrestored?

I see where you are going with this.!! Hi Don.
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Old 04-07-2013, 03:40 PM   #3
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Default Re: When is Model A Car or Truck classified has Restored or Unrestored?

I have 3 Model A's and all 3 have been repainted in the 50's, but none is restored.

To me restored means taking the car apart and bringing it back to as close as possible to the way it looked and functioned when it was new.
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Old 04-07-2013, 03:43 PM   #4
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Default Re: When is Model A Car or Truck classified has Restored or Unrestored?

I guess it depends on who you talk to. I see allot of cars on Ebay and their owners say that they are unrestored original. The pics say otherwise. lol
To me, unrestored means original paint, interior, chassis, and drivetrain. Minus whatever normal maint. an owner would have done for that period in the past till present, I.E. replaced the normal wear items to include the engine.
Restored, can but doesn't have to include body removal, etc. It would depend on the original condition.
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Old 04-07-2013, 03:47 PM   #5
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Default Re: When is Model A Car or Truck classified has Restored or Unrestored?

I agree with Tom. And then you have some that are not very recently restored and that opens another can of worms.
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Old 04-07-2013, 03:55 PM   #6
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Default Re: When is Model A Car or Truck classified has Restored or Unrestored?

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I have 3 Model A's and all 3 have been repainted in the 50's, but none is restored.

To me restored means taking the car apart and bringing it back to as close as possible to the way it looked and functioned when it was new.
Tom , I had a feeling this is were this thread was going . It is how we all look at what constitutes Restored and Unrestored. Everyone has there own idea what that means.
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Old 04-07-2013, 03:58 PM   #7
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Default Re: When is Model A Car or Truck classified has Restored or Unrestored?

I think "ORIGINAL" has to be thrown in the mix.
My cars have been repainted, so they aren't original, but they also aren't restored.
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Old 04-07-2013, 04:03 PM   #8
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Default Re: When is Model A Car or Truck classified has Restored or Unrestored?

It looks like Pandore's Box Has Been Opened .
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Old 04-07-2013, 04:13 PM   #9
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Default Re: When is Model A Car or Truck classified has Restored or Unrestored?

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It looks like Pandore's Box Has Been Opened .
I told you!!!!How's the pictures coming along? Have a Good one.
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Old 04-07-2013, 04:16 PM   #10
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Default Re: When is Model A Car or Truck classified has Restored or Unrestored?

If a Fender was repaired or and painted in the 40's or 50's does that keeping the Car or Truck from being original?, or in the 60's the hood got scratched and had to be repainted?Or does it have to be unmolested completely to be classified unrestored?
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Old 04-07-2013, 04:17 PM   #11
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Default Re: When is Model A Car or Truck classified has Restored or Unrestored?

This is easy, Just go to E-Bay & pick the description you like !!
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Old 04-07-2013, 04:21 PM   #12
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Default Re: When is Model A Car or Truck classified has Restored or Unrestored?

Both terms "restored" and "original" are greatly over used generalizations and abused terms. My car had the body off and frame painted and re-upholstered in the early 90's but was still a basket case mechanically - therefore in purest sense of the word NOT restored. This is where a lot of people like to call cars restored that have had some interior and/or paint work done when really they are not restored. (AKA an amatuer "messtoration") Now that I have gone through all the mechanical components (except the engine itself) I still can't call it restored because the paint and interior is already showing age, not model A correct interior and my fenders are body color etc. So its not REALLY restored, not original, but otherwise stock. I guess its quasi altered/repaired?

There is also the "original" term. To us it means unrestored with maybe a few mechanical repairs but still sporting the same paint and interior that it left the factory with. To the average joe on the street when they ask "is it original" they usually mean does it have the stock running gear and not a SBC? Also Original can be polished, stiched, and detailed and repaired enough to the point where is it still original vs. one that literally hasn't hardly been touched in any way other than driven a few miles and parked in a barn or garage for the last 65 years?

Personally I don't get too worked up about the overuse or abuse of these terms and I consider my audience. If I'm telling some random person I have a 31 model A and they ask "is it all original?" I might say yes, or that its stock, or I might say my grandfather restored it in the early 90's because from 10-20 feet it looks pretty nice - its obviously had some work done, and the fruits of my labor aren't as outwardly visual to the casual observer but it drives, stops, and handles better than it has since at least the 50's. If I"m talking to my model A buddies, it was repainted, had an interior put in, etc. but I won't call it restored. I would also only view a couple cars that I know of as "original" because they still have the same paint and interior that they left the factory with "for the most part." i.e. repainted hood, etc.
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Old 04-07-2013, 04:25 PM   #13
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Default Re: When is Model A Car or Truck classified has Restored or Unrestored?

Quote:
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This is easy, Just go to E-Bay & pick the description you like !!
The Model A that I am thinking about is not on E-bay. But the owner that has the Car or Truck that I am looking at says it's Unrestored and was asking you guys what you thought was Unrestored and Restored. I was just trying to get a clarification thats all.
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Old 04-07-2013, 04:29 PM   #14
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Default Re: When is Model A Car or Truck classified has Restored or Unrestored?

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Originally Posted by montanafordman View Post
Both terms "restored" and "original" are greatly over used generalizations and abused terms. My car had the body off and frame painted and re-upholstered in the early 90's but was still a basket case mechanically - therefore in purest sense of the word NOT restored. This is where a lot of people like to call cars restored that have had some interior and/or paint work done when really they are not restored. (AKA an amatuer "messtoration") Now that I have gone through all the mechanical components (except the engine itself) I still can't call it restored because the paint and interior is already showing age, not model A correct interior and my fenders are body color etc. So its not REALLY restored, not original, but otherwise stock. I guess its quasi altered/repaired?

There is also the "original" term. To us it means unrestored with maybe a few mechanical repairs but still sporting the same paint and interior that it left the factory with. To the average joe on the street when they ask "is it original" they usually mean does it have the stock running gear and not a SBC? Also Original can be polished, stiched, and detailed and repaired enough to the point where is it still original vs. one that literally hasn't hardly been touched in any way other than driven a few miles and parked in a barn or garage for the last 65 years?

Personally I don't get too worked up about the overuse or abuse of these terms and I consider my audience. If I'm telling some random person I have a 31 model A and they ask "is it all original?" I might say yes, or that its stock, or I might say my grandfather restored it in the early 90's because from 10-20 feet it looks pretty nice - its obviously had some work done, and the fruits of my labor aren't as outwardly visual to the casual observer but it drives, stops, and handles better than it has since at least the 50's. If I"m talking to my model A buddies, it was repainted, had an interior put in, etc. but I won't call it restored. I would also only view a couple cars that I know of as "original" because they still have the same paint and interior that they left the factory with "for the most part." i.e. repainted hood, etc.
Amen, to all of the above statement. Montanafordman.
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Old 04-07-2013, 04:38 PM   #15
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Default Re: When is Model A Car or Truck classified has Restored or Unrestored?

If it looks like a Model A, Runs Model A, Sounds like a Model A, then it's a Model A. Original, Unrestored, Restored like beauty, is in the eyes of the beholder, and many men marry ugly women...
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Old 04-07-2013, 04:41 PM   #16
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Default Re: When is Model A Car or Truck classified has Restored or Unrestored?

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If it looks like a Model A, Runs Model A, Sounds like a Model A, then it's a Model A. Original, Unrestored, Restored like beauty, is in the eyes of the beholder, and many men marry ugly women...

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Old 04-07-2013, 04:58 PM   #17
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Default Re: When is Model A Car or Truck classified has Restored or Unrestored?

When someone asks me if my car is original, I say "yes" because I have put it back together with what are now available as original reproduction parts as well as truly original parts. If I'm asked if any of my cars are restored, I always say "no, they are refurbished" because that is a truer description in my mind. I think the terminology is colored by who's using the words. The average person would look at my sedan and say "nice restoration." Brent would look at my sedan and might say "nice car" but I am completely certain he would not consider it restored (nor do I).

Altogether it's a pretty subjective evaluation. That's why a car might get 377 points in one show and 415 points in another. Nothing is absolute.
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Old 04-07-2013, 05:23 PM   #18
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Default Re: When is Model A Car or Truck classified has Restored or Unrestored?

IMO a model A can be restored using reproduction parts its just not considered a fine point car, but can win a senior award at hershey. i also feel it needs to be a frame off and completely gone through.

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Old 04-07-2013, 05:41 PM   #19
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Default Re: When is Model A Car or Truck classified has Restored or Unrestored?

I don't think there is a general "one size fits all" answer on original vs restored value. Way too many variables.
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Old 04-07-2013, 05:50 PM   #20
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Default Re: When is Model A Car or Truck classified has Restored or Unrestored?

I consider ours unrestored and "mostly original"

I will consider it the same when we replace the interior to make it nicer to drive, since nothing was left of the original.
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Old 04-07-2013, 06:50 PM   #21
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Default Re: When is Model A Car or Truck classified has Restored or Unrestored?

I just looked at an A for someone yesterday. The owner had hundreds of pictures showing a 'frame-off' job two years ago. That certainly negates any 'unrestored' status. Unfortunately, looking in person at what was done, seeing many wrong-year and repop parts, and great workmanship but to a non-stock quality (some parts 'over'), the car is far from 'restored'.

To me, 'restored' is the application of the fountain of youth. Back to what was when young. Not better, not worse, not different. Simply as it was. Sending grandma for a bunch of plastic surgery, cosmetic dentistry, and a make-over may clean the old gal up a bunch, but it certainly is not the treatment Ponce de Leon sought.
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Old 04-07-2013, 07:26 PM   #22
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Default Re: When is Model A Car or Truck classified has Restored or Unrestored?

Oh boy. Big can of worms...

According to the Oxford English Dictionary (online):

( I feel the third definition, which I have taken the liberty of putting in bold-face, applies. )

restore

Pronunciation: /rɪˈstɔː/


Translate restore | into French | into German | into Italian | into SpanishDefinition of restore
verb


[with object]
  • bring back or re-establish (a previous right, practice, or situation):the government restored confidence in the housing market order was eventually restored by riot police
  • return (someone or something) to a former condition, place, or position:the effort to restore him to office isn’t working
  • repair or renovate (a building, work of art, etc.) so as to return it to its original condition:the building has been lovingly restored
  • give (something stolen, taken away, or lost) back to the original owner or recipient:the government will restore land to those who lost it through confiscation
Derivatives

restorable



adjective restorer



noun
Origin:

Middle English: from Old French restorer, from Latin restaurare 'rebuild, restore'

http://oxforddictionaries.com/us/def...tore?q=Restore


"Return to its original condition".

As it left the assembly plant in 1927-'31.

Going strictly by the textbook defintion, truly "restored" A's are in the relative minority.

To me, "un-restored", means a car that has never had anything but routine maintenance ( or lack there-of), and largely exists in its as-built state, possibly showing the effects of time and usage.

My own 1928 Ford 49-A Special Coupe is not an un-touched survivor, nor is it restored... probably the most accurate description would be a "fixed-up field-rescue"... the running-gear is "un-restored", but very tired, the body had had some rust-repair pieces put-in. but minimal filler, rattle-can paint, new top but wrong material, etc.

You might want to visit the AACA website and check-out their guidelines for determining elegibilty for the HPOF class: Historic Preservation of Original Features.

In the real world, you'll get as many variations as people you ask.

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Old 04-07-2013, 07:42 PM   #23
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Default Re: When is Model A Car or Truck classified has Restored or Unrestored?

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As it left the assembly plant in 1927-'31.

Going strictly by the textbook defintion, truly "restored" A's are in the relative minority.

To me, "un-restored", means a car that has never had anything but routine maintenance ( or lack there-of), and largely exists in its as-built state, possibly showing the effects of time and usage.
Yes, ...sadly that is a very true statement.

What I guess makes this so controvercial is the "justifications" hobbyists give these days for making these modifications. I know that growing up, both of the Model A clubs used to have a mission statement that they were to promote the 1928-1931 Ford Model A as they were originally manufactured yet often times back then owners just didn't know any better when they restored their cars. Today, things are kinda different in that they call their Model-A restored yet knowingly have installed hydraulic brakes, overdrive transmissions, air conditioning, F100 steering boxes, 16" wheels, 12 volt electrical, alternators, etc. ...yet still feel they should have their Model-A accepted as a "restored" Model-A.


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Old 04-07-2013, 08:38 PM   #24
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Default Re: When is Model A Car or Truck classified has Restored or Unrestored?

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Yes, ...sadly that is a very true statement.

What I guess makes this so controvercial is the "justifications" hobbyists give these days for making these modifications. I know that growing up, both of the Model A clubs used to have a mission statement that they were to promote the 1928-1931 Ford Model A as they were originally manufactured yet often times back then owners just didn't know any better when they restored their cars. Today, things are kinda different in that they call their Model-A restored yet knowingly have installed hydraulic brakes, overdrive transmissions, air conditioning, F100 steering boxes, 16" wheels, 12 volt electrical, alternators, etc. ...yet still feel they should have their Model-A accepted as a "resto
.
How true that is !!.. I agree 100% !!
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Old 04-07-2013, 08:53 PM   #25
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i feel a restored car is a nuts and bolt complete resto
i have only seen a few cars that i would classify as original. one of which we redid the brakes on and sent it down the road with the original owners son. so since we redid the brakes is it not original anymore???? i think that its all in the eye of the beholder
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Old 04-07-2013, 10:06 PM   #26
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Default Re: When is Model A Car or Truck classified has Restored or Unrestored?

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extremely subjective term.

our Coupe received MARC of Originality award in 1987, despite being repainted in the '70s.

during our ownership we have replaced the roof fabric and powder coated the wheels so I doubt if it could qualify for that award even though the paint is ratty enough to appear original to a non-Model A observer and the original interior is still very serviceable.

ask 10 people at a car show and you'll get 15 different definitions.......
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Old 04-07-2013, 11:15 PM   #27
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Default Re: When is Model A Car or Truck classified has Restored or Unrestored?

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extremely subjective term.

ask 10 people at a car show and you'll get 15 different definitions.......
So very true!

When someone says restored, restored to what? Is it restored to what the outline of the car originally looked like. Restored using only parts available during ther year of manufacture? Restored using reproduction parts that have close form and function as originally built.

I feel there is no right or wrong answer to this question with the exception of original, I feel that there is only one definition of original, something with untouched parts except for parts designed to be replaced at intervals such as tires, oil, grease, air, brake pads, water in radiator etc. I think it would be hard to arque that with a straight face.
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Old 04-08-2013, 05:31 AM   #28
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Default Re: When is Model A Car or Truck classified has Restored or Unrestored?

Many of the cars that I see today are Restified!
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Old 04-08-2013, 06:22 AM   #29
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Default Re: When is Model A Car or Truck classified has Restored or Unrestored?

I like the term "a 20' restoration".

If you don't get any closer than 20', it looks like it did when it came from the factory.
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Old 04-08-2013, 08:41 AM   #30
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I like the term "a 20' restoration".

If you don't get any closer than 20', it looks like it did when it came from the factory.
I prefer a 10-foot restoration......a little more attention to detail ;-)
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Old 04-08-2013, 08:55 AM   #31
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Default Re: When is Model A Car or Truck classified has Restored or Unrestored?

how bout a 50'er
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Old 04-08-2013, 09:19 AM   #32
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Default Re: When is Model A Car or Truck classified has Restored or Unrestored?

My opinion: is a restored car is a nut and bolt restoration to return the car back to the way it came out of the factory. a preservervation: is a car that only had repairs done as necessary over the years. including paint, but not to remove the cars original patina. ie: small dents, minor wear and tear of parts that are no longer as new condition. Ask 50 people and get 50 different answers. Original cars are just that: Original and untouched as they came from the factory/ dealer at the time.

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Old 04-08-2013, 11:12 AM   #33
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Default Re: When is Model A Car or Truck classified has Restored or Unrestored?





Yep Mitch, ...that might be getting close to confirming that comment in Post 16!!


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Old 04-08-2013, 12:58 PM   #34
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Default Re: When is Model A Car or Truck classified has Restored or Unrestored?

To me an unrestored car is one that has not been "messed" with. Not many of those around....
Once the dents are removed, painted, upholstered, etc. it is somewhat restored no matter how you slice the pie. Even an Earl Shieb paint job is a restoration of sorts....
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Old 04-08-2013, 02:47 PM   #35
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Default Re: When is Model A Car or Truck classified has Restored or Unrestored?

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To me an unrestored car is one that has not been "messed" with. Not many of those around....
Once the dents are removed, painted, upholstered, etc. it is somewhat restored no matter how you slice the pie. Even an Earl Shieb paint job is a restoration of sorts....
Do you think the word "Refurbished" might fit that description a little closer?

(I tend to think of the words restore and refurbish as having two different meanings.)

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Old 04-12-2013, 08:34 PM   #36
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Default Re: When is Model A Car or Truck classified has Restored or Unrestored?

How does "out of the barn" fit into the discussion?
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Old 04-12-2013, 10:50 PM   #37
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Default Re: When is Model A Car or Truck classified has Restored or Unrestored?

Brent, point well taken.
However, original doesn't come close to either of those terms in my book.
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Old 04-12-2013, 10:53 PM   #38
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Default Re: When is Model A Car or Truck classified has Restored or Unrestored?

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how bout a 50"er

Do you mean she's 4 foot 2 inches?
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Old 04-13-2013, 01:42 PM   #39
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Default Re: When is Model A Car or Truck classified has Restored or Unrestored?

Ok, I have just the very car that fits into the original question that I am going to sell very soon.. It is the one pictured here, it has won the Best In Show Henry Award 1988, A master restoration award, & to this day only has 700 miles on it from then.. See the Cover of the Restorer May/June 1990 Vol.35 Issue #1 for story on car.. All interior, top & side curtain work done by Bill Sturm..Top has never been down, all is as day done..It was restored with ALL NOS fenders & running boards & many-many other NOS & Original restored parts...Still has the Original 3X plugs in it !!.. Oh, How many do you find today with an Original wiring Harness still being used ??..I dont think you could restore one today for what I will be asking for it... What class would you call this one in ??...
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Old 04-13-2013, 03:01 PM   #40
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Default Re: When is Model A Car or Truck classified has Restored or Unrestored?

I beleive the judging standards say must have 50% original paint & 50% original uphostry, to enter original class, Fred you are restored class , blue ribbon ,
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Old 04-22-2013, 10:47 PM   #41
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Default Re: When is Model A Car or Truck classified has Restored or Unrestored?

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When someone asks me if my car is original, I say "yes" because I have put it back together with what are now available as original reproduction parts as well as truly original parts. If I'm asked if any of my cars are restored, I always say "no, they are refurbished" because that is a truer description in my mind. I think the terminology is colored by who's using the words. The average person would look at my sedan and say "nice restoration." Brent would look at my sedan and might say "nice car" but I am completely certain he would not consider it restored (nor do I).

Altogether it's a pretty subjective evaluation. That's why a car might get 377 points in one show and 415 points in another. Nothing is absolute.
I have heard that restored is like factory new and rebuilt is same as refurbished. Here is a link from Hemmings. But there may never be a consensus.
http://www.hemmings.com/hsx/stories/...feature31.html
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Old 04-22-2013, 11:09 PM   #42
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Default Re: When is Model A Car or Truck classified has Restored or Unrestored?

Semantics is a truly great description of the 'word jello' we try to nail to a tree. IMO when a new tire, a spark plug, new set of points, anything that is replaced, according to Webster, it is no longer "original", (but is still not restored?). I once heard that the 500 most commonly used words in the English language, have more than 5000 different meanings.
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Old 04-23-2013, 12:38 AM   #43
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Default Re: When is Model A Car or Truck classified has Restored or Unrestored?

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Ok, I have just the very car that fits into the original question that I am going to sell very soon.. It is the one pictured here, it has won the Best In Show Henry Award 1988, A master restoration award, & to this day only has 700 miles on it from then.. See the Cover of the Restorer May/June 1990 Vol.35 Issue #1 for story on car.. All interior, top & side curtain work done by Bill Sturm..Top has never been down, all is as day done..It was restored with ALL NOS fenders & running boards & many-many other NOS & Original restored parts...Still has the Original 3X plugs in it !!.. Oh, How many do you find today with an Original wiring Harness still being used ??..I dont think you could restore one today for what I will be asking for it... What class would you call this one in ??...
Yours is what I would call a true restored Model A.
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Old 04-23-2013, 06:44 AM   #44
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Default Re: When is Model A Car or Truck classified has Restored or Unrestored?

Restored is a way over used word. Most are refurbished. Restored is like Tom said like new, with out all those so called upgrades, and modern parts.
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Old 04-23-2013, 06:51 AM   #45
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Default Re: When is Model A Car or Truck classified has Restored or Unrestored?

O.K.
I'm Curious now, Whats a "class two" restoration...
In ten words or less...
Just kidding...
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Old 04-23-2013, 07:10 AM   #46
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Well I have to go now. Got to get to the garage and finish restoring my 1930 model A pickup. You know the one with a flathead V8.
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Old 04-23-2013, 07:43 AM   #47
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Default Re: When is Model A Car or Truck classified has Restored or Unrestored?

[QUOTE=BRENT in 10-uh-C;627532]Yes, ...sadly that is a very true statement.

What I guess makes this so controvercial is the "justifications" hobbyists give these days for making these modifications. I know that growing up, both of the Model A clubs used to have a mission statement that they were to promote the 1928-1931 Ford Model A as they were originally manufactured yet often times back then owners just didn't know any better when they restored their cars. Today, things are kinda different in that they call their Model-A restored yet knowingly have installed hydraulic brakes, overdrive transmissions, air conditioning, F100 steering boxes, 16" wheels, 12 volt electrical, alternators, etc. ...yet still feel they should have their Model-A accepted as a "restored" Model-A.

"installed hydraulic brakes, overdrive transmissions, air conditioning, F100 steering boxes, 16" wheels, 12 volt electrical, alternators, etc."

With all those modifications, you just described a STREET ROD.
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Old 04-23-2013, 09:23 AM   #48
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Default Re: When is Model A Car or Truck classified has Restored or Unrestored?

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"installed hydraulic brakes, overdrive transmissions, air conditioning, F100 steering boxes, 16" wheels, 12 volt electrical, alternators, etc."
With all those modifications, you just described a STREET ROD.
Street rod would have much more then that, as a street rod typically would have an engine swap. Those mods would be more along the lines of the resto-mod category.
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Old 04-23-2013, 09:34 AM   #49
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Default Re: When is Model A Car or Truck classified has Restored or Unrestored?

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Street rod would have much more then that, as a street rod typically would have an engine swap. Those mods would be more along the lines of the resto-mod category.
Not according to NSRA (National Street Rod Association) website (--of whom I would consider to be the authority) where they say;

.
By definition a street rod is: An automobile of 1948 or earlier manufacture which has undergone some type of modernization, to include any of the following; engine, transmission, interior refinements, and any other modifications the builder desires.


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Old 04-23-2013, 09:52 AM   #50
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Default Re: When is Model A Car or Truck classified has Restored or Unrestored?

"Street Rod" is a broader term which would include the more finite term "resto mods". I'm heading over to Knoxville, TN the first week in May for the NSRA Street Rod Nationals South meet. Bet I see several "street rods/resto mods" registered that still have Model A engine blocks and the mods that Brent listed in his post. On the other hand, I go to a Model A national meet and see cars with the exact same modifications registered there. I think the only persons that really care are the DMV and the property tax man.

Last edited by Richard Wilson; 04-23-2013 at 10:39 AM. Reason: clarification
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