Sarter-won't

[47topless]

Should read: Starter-won't. (not able to edit titles on this site)
1947 59 AB, stock 6V. Battery full charge (6.3V).
Symptoms: in a short period of time, starter got gradually weaker and weaker until now will only click with starter button. Negative battery cable gets very very hot when cranking starter. Engine will start by engaging clutch with car rolling on an incline.
Diagnostic measures: Checked battery and starter connections; all good, clean and tight. Applied "booster" charge to battery, starter no better. Jumped neg battery post direct to starter (bypass solenoid), still only a click.
Relaced solenoid with new NAPA, starter no better.
Removed starter and bench tested. Starter spun great.
Reinstalled starter, making sure of a good clean ground connection of starter to engine, but still will not crank, only a click. I do not hear the starter spinning.

Question, "When installing the starter, if it goes in the bell housing with some maneuvering, lines up with mounting holes and will tighten down, can I assume that the bendix gear, on the starter, is in the correct position to engage the flywheel?"
Thank you for your thoughts.
Phil

[rockfla]

First, IF any cable is getting "very very hot" says the cable is too small. So I would still look at replacing that cable with a bigger one even though it's not the "direct" cause of your issue. ALSO the longer the cable is in overall length the larger the need for a larger diameter cable...Remember a 6V system is twice the AMPS of a 12V system so wire size, wire size wire size!!!! AND good grounds.



Second, have you checked your battery (and all three cells) with a hydrometer??? OR just a VO meter.....There is a big difference. YOU need to see/check for a possible "dead cell" as a battery may still put out 6.3V but your CCA's is what is suffering for "starting issues" Ie a dead cell or low cell.


Also make sure the face of the bell housing and where the starter mates to it are ALSO good and clean and making good contact. YOU could ALSO try using another ground strap from the starter to a good ground on the frame IF you have such!!!!



My first suggestions!!! IMO

[tubman]

Load test your battery. There was a thread on here a week or two ago with the same symptoms. It turned out to be a bad battery. Batteries will take a "surface charge" and test good with a regular voltmeter. A load test puts an equivalent load as a starter on the battery and then reads the voltage.

Oh yeah; if you need a new battery, bite the bullet and get an Optima.

[47topless]

Thank you for the responses. It is not the battery. I have tried two new batteries and, as stated above, I applied the "booster setting" on the charger directly to the starter, all contact surfaces are clean and tight. The battery cable is the correct size. In MHO, it is not the battery.

[cadillac512]

If a cable is getting hot ( the whole cable, not just at one end or at a connection) while trying to crank, there is substantial amp draw. Tells me the starter is maybe dragging under load (bad bushings) or the field winding is shorting when loaded. This can happen even if the starter seems ok on a bench test.



Terry

[Alaska Jim]

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What Cadillac512 said. just because the starter tests good on a bench, it is not drawing a load, and could be bad. the hot cable says your battery is good , and that something is causing a large draw of amperage , most likley the starter. It could be as simple as a battery cable , Pos. or Neg. that is corroded under the insulation, or the cables are mch to small diameter.

[drolston]

Ditto Alaska Jim regarding cables. If you see any green on the copper fibers of either positive or negative battery cables, they are high suspects. You can get corrosion under the insulation that greatly increased the resistance to current flow in the cables. That resistance results in heat, which you have on the negative cable.

[47topless]

The starter has been "jumped" directly to the battery, which eliminates any failing cable issues being the problem. It really does seem as if the starter is bipolar.
I will remove starter and look for an old guy that can rebuild this for me.
Thank you,
Phil

[1948F-1Pickup]

Originally Posted by tubman

Load test your battery. There was a thread on here a week or two ago with the same symptoms. It turned out to be a bad battery. Batteries will take a "surface charge" and test good with a regular voltmeter. A load test puts an equivalent load as a starter on the battery and then reads the voltage.

I've got one downstairs that charges to 12.something volts and NEVER shows a
CCA rating better than 250 or so. It's sticker-rated at 800+ CCA. The .2 volts difference in it having at full charge doesn't equate to 550 amps.
The battery is toast. My $1200 Midtronics tester never lies. Ever.

[kiwi nz]

Going back fifty something years all my cars were 6 volt and all had "iffy" batteries, the first thing I did when i bought one was dismantle the starter motor and give it a clean up.

The copper would often be bridging the segments of the armature, I used to scrape them out, I would give the surface of the armature a clean with fine sandpaper, make sure the brushes were long enough and free in the holders, lube everything that needed it and put it back together.

Along with cleaning all the terminals it usually only cost me time.
You would probably be surprised with how many old non-starters I revived, I was.

You have done everything else, i would have that starter out and checking it, or if you are not confident to do it yourself, getting it checked.

[fortyonerag]

Maybe your starter brushes are getting low, or are sticking in their holders. Have you tried tapping on the starter when it is having these problems?

If it helps, it's a temporary fix only

[47topless]

Good advice above, (from below). I did tap the starter when cranking but no go. I'll take the damned thing out again and check the brushes for sticking and give the armature a nice light sanding. If still no go, I will just buy a new rebuilt. That will have a "modern" Bendix and may solve the problem.
Thank you all for taking the time to respond.
Phil

[cmbrucew]

Look at the armature and the field core shoe for signs of rubbing .Sign of worn rear bushing.
Bruce

[tubman]

A "modern bendix" is not really an improvement. They make it very difficult to install the starter. Substitute "quality bendix" and you'll be a happy camper.

The last I heard, Mac van Pelt (van Pelt Sales) has the desired unit.

[SoCalCoupe]

Originally Posted by 47topless

Should read: Starter-won't. (not able to edit titles on this site)
1947 59 AB, stock 6V. Battery full charge (6.3V).
Symptoms: in a short period of time, starter got gradually weaker and weaker until now will only click with starter button. Negative battery cable gets very very hot when cranking starter. Engine will start by engaging clutch with car rolling on an incline.
Diagnostic measures: Checked battery and starter connections; all good, clean and tight. Applied "booster" charge to battery, starter no better. Jumped neg battery post direct to starter (bypass solenoid), still only a click.
Relaced solenoid with new NAPA, starter no better.
Removed starter and bench tested. Starter spun great.
Reinstalled starter, making sure of a good clean ground connection of starter to engine, but still will not crank, only a click. I do not hear the starter spinning.

Question, "When installing the starter, if it goes in the bell housing with some maneuvering, lines up with mounting holes and will tighten down, can I assume that the bendix gear, on the starter, is in the correct position to engage the flywheel?"
Thank you for your thoughts.
Phil

I understand. Been there more than once. I was probably the guy Tubman mentioned who traced my issue to a bad battery.


That wasn't the first time this ugly little issue popped up though. Not terribly familiar with the '47 but you should have a ground connection to the block. The first time I had this issue, I had a good +ground to to the firewall but no firewall to block ground. The previous owner had failed to install it. Added the missing strap to the block and it was magic.


The next time it happened, I pulled the starter and checked the mating surfaces. In addition to a mechanical joint, it's an electrical joint. Found some paint on the mating surface, scraped it off, then scotch-brighted both surfaces, helped a lot.


The third time it happened it was the no-name 6V battery. Took it AutoZone and had it tested. It was trash. Replaced it with an Optima. The Optima was like a 12 V conversion! Just breath on the starter button and car starts right up.



Could be something else too like the smart Ford-Barners address.

[47topless]

Going back to basics. By, once again, referencing my "Fix Your Ford" book and the Ford repair manual "Generating and Starting Systems 1933-1947", I discovered that my starter problem (starter clicks but will not crank engine) may be due to water in the cylinders. WHAT??!! . the diagnostic test; CHECK FOR HYDROSTATIC LOCK OR SEIZED ENGINE ... remove spark plugs. If starter now cranks the engine, there is evidence of water leaking into the cylinders.
At this point, while I may need a new engine, I am happy to have, perhaps, solved my problem. Plus, I have a very good excuse to get a new engine. Win/Win.
Thanks again for all of your input.
Phil