message received loud and clear

[jw hash]

I have been a MAFCA member for thirty years. I became a master judge in 2011.I interred my A400 in fine point judging at the MAFCA national meet this month. I was sent a message loud and clear, that if Marco did not do your interior you are screwed. last year in Bend at the northwest regional I interred my A400 in fine point judging and received full points on my interior. this month at the MAFCA national meet I interred it again in fine point judging, Marco and team docked my interior 22 points with not even one stinking word writing why. 22 point will knock you so far out competition you can not recover.so if you are thinking of interring a vehicle in judging, you might want to think again. the system is broke and no one wants to fix it. I will not inter another vehicle in judging. and I will not renew my membership in 2015 with MAFCA John Hash

[BRENT in 10-uh-C]

Yes, there is indeed a VERY heavy point deduction in the interior trim and tops sections. I actually started a response under Barbara's post the other day in response to Peter Mendola's deductions and then deleted it as I felt it would detract from the positive mood of the thread.

For the moment, let's take Marco and Bill Sturm out of the equation because it really is a bigger issue than just Marco or Bill. You are correct in that it does seem that if those two do not do your interior, then you cannot recover however Hunter Fanney actually used a LeBaron-Bonney kit as a starting point on his award-winning Coupe but modified it under the direction of Bill's advice, ....and won, -so just in that one instance it disproves your comment above.

Where I feel the bigger issue with this comes in is many Team Captains use criteria that is NOT in the Standards to evaluate your car with. From an ethics point of view, this is totally wrong however they know it yet still continue to do so even though the Judge is instructed not to use information outside of what is printed in the Stds. In your situation, my opinion is the Stds. needs to be specific in description if there is something they want to see. If they want to see brown tanned leather with 10 pleats and two Nickle-plated grommets, ...then by golly it needs to have that printed. As it is right now, the restorer is at a distinct disadvantage not knowing what a Judge is going to evaluate on.

So as not to put Marco on trial here in this thread, Pete's 180-A had an Aries exhaust system on it at French Lick that received a deduction. Based on a couple of original mufflers I have seen, there are just a couple of VERY subtle differences (i.e. welds, etc.) between the original vs. the Aries that you must study the two for several minutes before those very minor differences even become apparent. More specifically in the Stds. it specifies the muffler was tapered and the pipe was uniform in size from front to rear, ....all of which the Aries has. Therefore the Aries meets the criteria specified in the Stds. yet Pete's gets a deduction because a Judge chooses to step outside of the judging rules and evaluate things his way. Adding additional frustration, some years a Team Captain (who is very versed on Exhaust systems and even given seminars on the topic) has accepted the Aries unit without deduction. Nothing is more frustrating than to build to a score only to have the rules altered on a Judge's whim or ego.

My personal feeling is that while the JSC groups have provided a HUGE service to the hobby through the research efforts and printing the Stds, they have performed an equally HUGE disservice to the hobby in their judging ways. The methods of competition in all facets of sports are different now than what we knew of several decades ago however the Fine-point judging methods often seen are likened to a 19th century Gentleman's Club complete with smoke-filled back room politics. Yes, the thought of that "stings" however this perception was prevalent before I ever became involved in F/P judging, and will likely continue until there is a changing of the guard.

The beginning way to correct all of this is the Judges need to put ethics in the forefront. A Judge should be so transparent with their judging that no one can ever make an allegation or suggest they have done something wrong. Yes, there are Team Captains that have been just as I have suggested where no one even questions their motives however there are others that taint the system for the Club(s).

[RockHillWill]

JW, I am with you all the way. I will not be renewing my membership in MAFCA next year as well. It is MY opinion that I have witnessed WAY to much ego BS. I have experienced more in my lifetime than most folks get an opportunity to even get exposed to. I figured one time that In my 26 year racing career alone, I have been face to face with about 2.8 million folks. I like people in general and spend a great deal of time studying their attitudes, aptitudes, appearance and approaches to 'situations', and I have become FED UP with the crowd of folks that take on areas of responsibilities only to further their reputation, their resumes and enhance their own inflated egos. I think I have actually seen sphincter burns around some of their ears! By that same token I have met an enormous group of GREAT folks and have amassed a huge group of friends that any man would be proud of, and I am proud of them all.

You can expect some areas of dispute when you enter a car in Fine Point Judging, but I have always maintained that the joy from building a Fine Point car is in the journey, not the destination. Unfortunately, some of the judges have assumed that because they know a LOT, they know EVERYTHING. It has been embarrassing to me to be in the presence of some of these guys that try to defend their decisions in the face of written proof to the contrary. I acquired over 1200 pages of documentation and every drawing in the Benson Archives for a recent restoration and their were still guys that wound tell me I was 'mistaken'. I have just gotten tired of arguing with 'loose sphincters'. It was judged in Oshkosh in some areas in accordance with the new standards, not by the fact that it was only the first meet after the changes and there is a two year 'window' for the old standards use. It was mostly done in an area that it is easy to assume the reason why.

Fine Point Judging should be the FIRST place a new restoration is taken and a field of COMPETANT and CARING judges should take the time to review the car and provide written comments and guidance to IMPROVE the restoration for whatever the owners intentions are. Judging sheets should be for three continuous years, so that an owner who brings his car back in successive continuous years is not deducted for unchanged items. Doing so would only indicate that one judge is calling the previous judge 'unskilled', etc. There are just too many folks that have built their own throne and expect you to bow down to them.

I have been shot once, stabbed twice and dragged behind a car for 75 yards at over 60 MPH. I have experienced personal darkness that I would not wish on my worst enemy, but at this age, I am finding it too stressful to step around these types of folks, and I am tired of trying to hold myself back from confronting those guys, so I am moving on.

I will be MOST HAPPY to help any restorer in any way that I can, because I have had great success in my own endeavors as a result of others that have helped me achieve my own goals, but you are NOT likely to see me at any event by MAFCA. I have some concerns about MARC as well.

[Logan]

My opinion on judging is it's not always what you know, it's who you know. You could have the most perfect restored car there ever was. If a judges friend is your competition, they'll find a way to knock your points down. Or not give you full points where it's deserved, like 9 out of 10 points in one area where it deserved 10. Little stuff like that Adds up. I'm not saying all judges do it intentionally, but there is the part of every human beings mind that wants to see their friends succeed. Sure some do it on purpose, but some might so it un-intentionally as well and not realizing they're judging one car harder than the next because it's not their buddies car or they didn't see the process of the car being restored so they have no emotional attachment to the car.

[Rowdy]

I have not ever entered in fine point judging, but have always suspected there were some areas where things like this happen. When I was building the rdstr pu for fine point judging I began to sense some of this on some 28 chassis parts. Since the rdstr pickup was likely a June of 28 built commercial vehicle there were some really Grey areas left up to the Judges to translate. June of 28 was a real transitional period and adding the fact it was a commercial vehicle which Ford likely was using up earlier parts on it was a real challange trying to determine what would pass with all of the judges. Needless to say I was in close contact with many judges and members of the committee. Very stressful at times as there were conflicting opinions. Rod

[newshirt]

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IMHO... as a newbie and outsider with only the slightest knowledge of this topic... it seems there are several factors challenging blue ribbon judging. Arbitrary rulings are just one of many.

1. Cost. Back in the day, you could restore and judge a car for $5,000. Now, it's probably $30-40K.

2. Drivability. Spend $30K on a blue ribbon trailer queen, and you're not likely to drive it a million miles. You just own it.

3. Camaraderie. How many in your local club are actually still doing this? One or two? Big club, maybe ten. It's still a small crowd.

4. Politics. Every mature organization evolves into elitist classes. Common folk just can't break through. Clergy and laity. Politicians and taxpayers.

When I bought my car in 2010, I really wanted to be a purist and go to the judging meets. That dream seems too elusive now. But hey... I could hit the lottery.

[BRENT in 10-uh-C]

Originally Posted by newshirt

IMHO... as a newbie and outsider with only the slightest knowledge of this topic... it seems there are several factors challenging blue ribbon judging. Arbitrary rulings are just one of many.

1. Cost. Back in the day, you could restore and judge a car for $5,000. Now, it's probably $30-40K. Yeah right!! To have an A400 interior & top professionally done to meet the fine-point expectations will cost ½ of your guesstimate alone!!

2. Drivability. Spend $30K on a blue ribbon trailer queen, and you're not likely to drive it a million miles. You just own it. No club member drives their car a million miles a year. Heck, most Model-A hobbyists struggle to log 2,000 miles a year on their Model-A. If truth were told, more Model-A hobbyists just own a Model-A that sits than hobbyists that actually use them with frequency.

3. Camaraderie. How many in your local club are actually still doing this? One or two? Big club, maybe ten. It's still a small crowd. I'm not sure this is accurate either. The crowd is not small who are striving for authenticity or bettering a vehicle. If your thoughts were actually true, then why do they sell as many Judging Stds. books a year? As far as Judging goes, the largest car club in the world has their main focus on Judging. Therefore it is NOT about judging as that side of the hobby is still very popular.

4. Politics. Every mature organization evolves into elitist classes. Common folk just can't break through. Clergy and laity. Politicians and taxpayers.

When I bought my car in 2010, I really wanted to be a purist and go to the judging meets. That dream seems too elusive now. But hey... I could hit the lottery.

........

[pat in Santa Cruz]

I was frankly surprised that there were so few cars in judging in Puyallup. This story is probably an indication of why. I think Brent hits the nail on the head about the JS having more thoroughly described standards.


That being said, CCCA and AACA have many cars in judging, and the standards are a lot easier to meet, although they are even more subjective. Nevertheless, I also know from experience that in assessing a car for sale, I often take awards from those clubs with a grain of salt, as a really good looking and well awarded car from those judgings can often require a lot of work before its suited to driving more miles than a mandatory tour or a hop across the lawn from the trailer to the show.

[Marco Tahtaras]

Obviously I have to respond since the issue was raised.

The book says "Deep brown crush grain genuine leather" and then directs to a foot note further describing it as actually "fine colonial grain". While that doesn't paint a clear picture of what it looks like, it generally prompts an owner or restorer to find out what it looks like or study remaining original scraps in their car if there are any. Nowhere does the book suggest "the light or medium brown grainless leather of your choice".

Another issue that is becoming more common is the use of foam rubber. Sewing the seating surface pleats of over a solid cloth backed sheet of foam rubber is expedient and provides a nice modern look but is clearly has different characteristics than being individually stuffed with cotton as was done long before and continuing long after the Model A period. The use of foam rubber is also mentioned in the book although it clearly needs to be emphasized more since folks aren't paying attention to it.

I'm sure these issues don't matter to most folks as long as the workmanship is good but they are significant issues none the less.

[1wonton]

I've never understood why anyone would want to enter their Model A Ford in "fine point judging". I suppose it is some kind of ego boost to out-point your fellow car owners but must hurt a lot to get beat out by some other guy who devotes his entire life to win some cheesy plastic trophy. I drive my old Ford because it's fun; not afraid to scratch it, get it dirty or wworry about something not being "factory". How many owners really give spits about "fine point" judging. Too bad you lost, too bad you entered in the first place. I wouldn't quit the club over this, it's just a Ford, not a Dusenberg.

[Rowdy]

I can clearly see that you do not understand. I don't think it is an ego thing and there is no "First Place", simlply a score and ribbons for hitting or exceeding a cerian score. It is possible for several Henrey Awards at any given meet. Many that have high scores also don't let the car simply sit between shos. I have been told several use the same car for Hill Climbs etc. At some point in the future I will try again to build one for fine points judging. Although alittle stressful it is a worthwhile learning experience. Rod

[42merc]

btt

[BlueSunoco]

JW by the looks of your car in your Avatar, I'd be darn proud of it. Heck with the Fine Points Judging. Drive it, have fun with it, and ignore the F.P. mentality you have one fine looking A-400.

After reading this thread and several like it in the past, I would run away from entering F.P. judging. It seems to zap the fun factor out of owning a Model A Ford, and when it's no longer fun it's not worth participating in the hobby.

On a second note, too bad for the National Clubs. I'm the only Model A owner that I know of that ever belonged to either in my area. I've given copies of The Restorer and MAN to many, many A owners and they could care less about belonging. Not one ever joined. I even bought memberships for two of my closer friends and they wouldn't renew.

[Merc Cruzer]

Seems like Marco have a conflict of interest in judging cars where they have not done the interior. Just my opinion.

[Steve Wastler]

Originally Posted by Merc Cruzer

Seems like Marco have a conflict of interest in judging cars where they have not done the interior. Just my opinion.

How is Marcos response a conflict of interest?

Fine point cars are supposed to be as close to having left the factory as possible, period. If it isn't correct it isn't correct. It is what it is.

I will agree egos have no place in judging, but having never entered a car yet in fine point, I can't comment on what I have yet to witness.

JW, you have a great car, it still rates high in my book, regardless of the correct to the letter interior.

[Marco Tahtaras]

Originally Posted by Merc Cruzer

Seems like Marco have a conflict of interest in judging cars where they have not done the interior. Just my opinion.

I have two additional points. First, I quit doing that type of work over fifteen years ago so that just doesn't hold water. Second, I was just one of a five person team. In many if not most cases I was trying to push the scores up.

[d.j. moordigian]

Originally Posted by Merc Cruzer

Seems like Marco have a conflict of interest in judging cars where they have not done the interior. Just my opinion.

I disagree,.....I think you dead wrong!


And speaking of "wrong", I take exception to the fact that no written
comments for the deductions,...I consider that wrong! I was instructed
by Bill Strum too write comments for the deductions, so the owner
understood the problem...

[Bob Johnson]

I have judged in several regional and one national meet. I have talked to many chief judges about this issue and as of yet I still have questions about the following excerpt from the JS.


In the past, judges may have used their technical knowledge of specific items that were not included in the Guidelines available at the time a vehicle was judged. Individual judges must not use their own ideas, knowledge, interpretations and/or opinions as this puts the owner at a disadvantage when his vehicle is judged against information not in the Guidelines. This practice shall be discontinued.


I usually pose the following. The JS specify the paint colors for each body style / year. However there are no examples of the colors in the JS. If a 1930 Cabriolet is painted yellow and brown how does a judge know if it is the correct yellow and brown. Is canary yellow and light brown acceptable? Most say no it has to be the correct yellow and brown. But there is nothing in the JS that describe the correct colors. If a judge "knows" what the correct shades are and uses that knowledge is that wrong based on the above statement? If you have three judges and one knows exactly what shade the colors are the second knows approximately what the color is, and the third does not know what the correct color of yellow then what information do you use. The first will deduct points for any color other than the "correct" yellow. The second will deduct points for yellows that are not close to the original color. The last will give full points for any yellow. My conclusion here is that the amount of deduction may depend on the "technical knowledge" of the judge making the deductions.

The above example of paint color is just one of many areas that I could have used.

Bob

[DougVieyra]

I too have been a long-time member of both MARC (1965-2007) and MAFCA (1964-2014), and became a Master Judge in 1987. I too built and entered a car for 'Fine Point' judging. So I understand John Hash's frustration and disappointment.

It is always sad to hear about disappointing experiences. To have high expectations dashed is a traumatic and emotional (and even exasperating) thing to have to go through. Sometimes 'venting' can help one get through the emotional drama the rages through one's mind. So it is good to 'vent'.

However, for the person who is not 'hurt' by the 'injustice' , a somewhat clearer picture may emerge. In reading John Hash's post, I sense that "Winning is Everything"! And the most stringent game of all is entering into 'Fine Point' Judging. That is true whether it is ballet, or chess. Or cars.

The driving force behind 'winning', is the extreme attention to detail. That is what separates the the players in the game. And for 'Fine Point' judging 'extreme attention to detail' is both required and demanded, if one is to succeed to the top of the pile. That arena is NOT for very many people. Some don't have the money for it. Some don't have the desire or inclination for it. Some don't have the ability for it. But I suspect most just don't have an interest in such competition. And that is what 'Fine Point' judging is - competition.

However, when emotionalism takes over, we loose some of our objectivity. When John Hash riles with words like 'stinking', his lack of objectivity begins to creep into his argument. I mentioned earlier that 'extreme attention to detail' was needed to succeed in 'Fine Point' judging. I hope I was not the only one who noticed that John Hash's post may have given a clue as to why he did not fare as well as he expected. I am referring to his use of the word 'interred' and 'interring'. Attention to detail would have given us the correct 'entered' and 'entering'. If he lacked 'attention to detail' in such a simple task as writing a forum post, he may have also lacked some 'attention to detail' in his cars upholstery.

There is an old saying - "If you can't stand the heat - move away from the fire". But that does not mean that you have to move out of the building ! There are so many facets to our Model A hobby, and 'Fine Point' judging is - to my mind - the smallest part of it. There are so many fine people, so many fine events, so many fine social activities, and so much more. If John would avoid the 'corrupt' world of 'Fine Point' judging and instead enjoy all the other benefits of the warm camaraderie that make up the Model A family, I think he could 'have his cake and eat it too'.

[Vern]

Really, a spelling & grammar lesson? I caught the word use as well, but overlooked it as well as the use of "stinking".

But it is hard to look past the point deductions on the sheet offered up by John and wonder as to the explanation. And, to add to his frustration, to receive completely different scores for the interior finishes is hard to fathom when the standards are supposed to be across the board for both national groups.

I've never had any experiece in the Fine Point arena, so I don't know one way or the other.