New Flathead “Steaming” Exhaust

[50flatF3]

Hi all,
I have a freshly rebuilt and warmed over 8BA in my 50’ F3. After sitting the entire winter I went to start up the truck and immediately had white smoke or steam billowing from my exhaust.

Let’s backtrack to august, well I had coolant in my oil so I replaced the head gaskets with speedway copper gaskets and used permatex thread sealant on the bolts, which is my typical method for flatheads . The truck ran the rest of the fall without any issues or smoking.

So tonight upon another start up I still had the same issue. I let cool and re torqued the bolts and fired up again. Still smoking. I pulled plugs and noticed #8 plug was wet. None of the other plugs were wet or steam cleaned however both tailpipes were smoking and the truck has true duals. I plan to pull the heads tomorrow night to inspect. Is there anything I should look for on the gaskets? Would it be possible the permatex isn’t doing its job? Lastly what gaskets do you all run? Sealant for head bolts? I’m hoping it’s just head gaskets...

Thanks in advance

Sam

[JSeery]

Was the block pressure tested before the rebuild? If you believe it's a small leak might try a block sealant first before taking it apart (pulling the heads).

[50flatF3]

Originally Posted by JSeery

Was the block pressure tested before the rebuild? If you believe it's a small leak might try a block sealant first before taking it apart (pulling the heads).

Not to my knowledge, I don’t believe so. I will try that tomorrow before tearing apart.

[JSeery]

Not much help now, but a flathead always needs to be pressure tested before working on them, that is if you want to avoid issues later on.

[flatjack9]

I would not expect a cracked block if it ran well last fall.

[VeryTangled]

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What did the fresh build person say?

Originally Posted by 50flatF3

Hi all, Let’s backtrack to august, well I had coolant in my oil so I... Sam

Sadly it seems that issue isn't sorted.

You said you're pulling the heads. Report back with that info. Hoping you're right about the gasket.

[Bored&Stroked]

My guess is that you have other issues other than the head gasket - but I surely hope not. The fact that you have a washed down plug pretty much means it is in the valve, port or combustion area. This is usually a much better place to have an issue than in a "not to be seen or screwed with" exhaust runner - which usually scraps the block. Checkout all your head gaskets first - and also pay very close attention to the transfer area - looking for cracks. If you have a pressure testing kit - you can pressure test the block while the engine is in the car - though obviously the heads have to be off and you'll need block-off plates for the water pumps. I bought my pressure test kit from Speedway - it works fine for the price.

[rotorwrench]

Hopefully the truck wasn't exposed to a very cold winter condition that may have caused a freeze crack.

There are much better sealants available now that work better than the old Permatex. Modern gaskets like the Best brand may be an alternative to copper. I always used silver spray paint on the copper types. If there is no coolant in the oil then you may still have a valve pocket crack that opens up when hot. Those cracks in the siamese center exhaust ports are always a possibility as has been mentioned. With the open cross over in the manifold, the steam can get to both sides unless the ports are blocked.

[Henry Floored]

First is this an .080 overbored (or more) engine? There are water passages that are very close to the cylinders at both ends of the 8BA style block. Furthermore if you have aluminum heads on top the mates to those holes could be very close to the cylinder margin.

With the copper head gaskets you are asking about an 1/8 to 1/4 inch (depending on if you are using big bore gaskets) to seal water next to the cylinder.

The thing that exacerbates the situation is the “fire ring” which goes around the cylinder and valves. The joint between the fire ring and where the actual deck sealing surface of the gasket causes a water problem.

I am currently fixing a Flathead with this problem. Feel free to message me if you want to know more about my dilemma.

[50flatF3]

Thanks all for the responses. The block is bored .060 over, I ordered some best gaskets graphtite gaskets last night so will try those. I am not showing any traces of coolant in my oil. The thing is I remember seeing the block after it was magnafluxed. 2 cylinders are sleeved other than that we did not find anything else. Also i live in northern iowa and my garage isn’t insulated however it’s usually substantially warmer in my garage. I have two other flatheads in the garage and no issues with those. I will report back with my findings once the heads are pulled.

[big job]

Just my thoughts: smoke: black running rich blue Oil white with out loosing coolant very normal here. New or the old, clouds of white and dripping water. I see my kids
going to work and clouds of white coming out of the pipes new cars. My car a 46 same thing..I think its moisture and a temperature thing because my fathers new 1961 Lincoln started when cold would pour water and white its condensation. so all the pipes and cold mufflers has to get hot. Midis muffler for live guarantee put more mufflers on that car way into the 1970s.... On those were four way back so they never got hot ....I wouldn't worry but I would be concerned if in 80 degree weather.....the other Sam

[50flatF3]

I drained the coolant this afternoon and let the truck run briefly, no smoke at all. So it is a coolant issue. I pulled the heads, cleaned the copper spray off and could not find any visible cracks on the deck - not to say there are ones in other places. Here is a picture of the drivers side gasket. Anything jump out to anyone? Also I noticed a few of the head bolts by #8 cylinder were wet, I assume coolant was making its way up the threads. What do you guys think? There are black spots near the coolant ports going down the center of the gasket, is this where coolant leaks?

Sam

[Kurt in NJ]

which end was #8, the cylinder at the bottom of the picture looks looks the whole area is suspect, yes the black areas are signs of possible problems in those areas, what does the other side look like

[alanwoodieman]

cylinder at bottom has a blown out bolt hole near the valve on end

[Jack E/NJ]

Agree with Kurt. If heads & deck mate well, I'd be tempted to use plain old composite gaskets & plenty of grease. 8^) Jack E/NJ

[petehoovie]

Yup!...."use plain old composite gaskets"....

[50flatF3]

8 was the bottom end, the other head looks similar. And the other side of the gaskets have the same black marks. Will the Best Gaskets “graphtite” gaskets suffice? I assume when you say composite you mean the ones that aren’t copper, like fel pros etc. also I called the engine builder and he said the block was pressure tested so I feel a lot better. What type of grease do you suggest?

Thanks guys, I appreciate the input!!

[petehoovie]

Yes, the BEST GraphTite gaskets will work just fine. Use chassis lube grease...
http://bestgasket.com/vintage-engine-gaskets/





HEAD GASKET (GraphTite™)

521G-1 & 521G-2

Ford, Merc V8 8BA 1949-53

[Jack E/NJ]

Yes. FelPros & chasis/wheel-bearing grease. Jack E/NJ

[flatjack9]

Have you checked the heads to see if they are flat?

[Kurt in NJ]

You say 8 is the bottom in the picture, but on 8ba the larger water passages on the end are in the rear of the block, could the gasket have been on backwards??
I recently worked on a packard, the gasket was having problems down the center, the head looked recently surfaced, it was evenly low down the center, I suspect the surfacing machine had too much tilt in the spindle----- I learned a long time ago to check all machine work

[50flatF3]

Originally Posted by Kurt in NJ

You say 8 is the bottom in the picture, but on 8ba the larger water passages on the end are in the rear of the block, could the gasket have been on backwards??

Looking at the gasket again I think you may be right....might be that simple.

[Will D]

If the gasket was on backwards, how did this I indent get here(white arrow). That would have come from the water passage on the block beside #8....

[50flatF3]

Update. Got the gaskets installed, ran for 15 mins, let cool retorqued, then repeated once more. The truck already runs better. Passenger tail pipe doesn’t smoke anymore, drivers still does. Checked plugs, #8 (one closest to firewall on drivers side) is steam cleaned but not wet. I am going to add some block sealer tomorrow and drive a bit. See if this improves it. Does anyone have experience using bars block sealer and permanently fixing a leak? I’ve also came to the conclusion there must be quite a bit of moisture in my pipes cause a lot of water came out after running the first time, I assume this is after sitting all winter...

Sam

Thanks

[50flatF3]

Also here is the picture of the truck. I started the restoration when I was 17 am 24 now so looking forward to wrapping it up.

Sam

[koates]

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You need to retorque the heads 4 or 5 times when the engine is fully cold after each running session to make sure they are seated correctly. Regards, Kevin.

[Bored&Stroked]

If you use a block sealer, do not use the BARS stuff. Here is a good product:

https://www.jegs.com/i/Moroso/710/35500/10002/-1

Make sure you do EXACTLY as the product recommends - sometimes it takes two "doses" of the product to work. It may just resolve your issue - depending on what it is and how bad it is.

Good luck, hopefully you get your truck on the road soon and get to enjoy it!

[AnthonyG]

I had similar problem with my 8BA after storing over first winter season. It was a fresh rebuild as well. Just reading & wish I got to you earlier. Was kind of surprised no one mention this specific type engine sealer or I missed it? FB guys suggested either of these when I had the issue & it resolved it. Copper or aluminum powder engine sealant. I used the aluminum type per direction & problem disappeared & didn’t come back. https://www.oreillyauto.com/detail/c...0/asbp73?pos=1
Also thought of another great tip from Tubman or JSeery, maybe both. All the threads in the block for the head bolts need to be cleaned with a thread cleaning tool made from a mild steel longer bolt or thread all that’s had a v-groove or slot ground into it, to turn in & out of threads cleaning the old thread seal from threads.

[1931 flamingo]

Used AlumAseal many times in my younger days.......................
Paul in CT

[HD Rider]

Originally Posted by 50flatF3

Also here is the picture of the truck. I started the restoration when I was 17 am 24 now so looking forward to wrapping it up.

Sam

Nice Truck!
It's good to see young guys take an interest is old stuff.

[cmbrucew]

I also like the truck, and color scheme. Enjoy it.


Bruce

[JWL]

Jack makes a very good point---are the block and heads flat? From the gasket picture it looks very suspect. Borrow a precision straight edge and do some investigating with a feeler gage.

[Old Redneck]

If you use block sealer mix it in a jar before you dump it in the radiator.

[cmbrucew]

Originally Posted by Old Redneck

If you use block sealer mix it in a jar before you dump it in the radiator.

Never thought about that before. Real good advise.


Bruce

[3twinridges]

When you torqued the head bolts, did you follow the sequence recommended in the manual? You probably did but just checking on that.

JB

[elwood]

Steaming out the exhaust, ahh I remember so well the first time, I remember sitting on the curb behind my pickup and crying, I knew what it was right away,
I can tell you 99.9 % sure what it is.. its a crack running down deep down into one of the exhaust runners, these ol blocks like to rust, they like to gather rust in between the cylinder walls and the exhaust runners, blocking most if not all water travel around the exhaust runners, metal is thin there, thus the cracking issues they have ..
Cant get to the cracks down in there to stich them, Ive tried silver souldering them, brazing them, Ive never had any luck, I now have a pressure testing unit, and a maganfluxer, two years ago I hauled 11 blocks, all cracked in the exhaust runners, tyo the scrap yard, Ivew got 3 blocks now sitting out side, all with cracks in the exhaust runners..
Ive got 2 gorgeous, beautiful late blocks, wouldnt take 2k for eather one, sound crazy ? Find a good one , there worth there weaght in gold .. you know, if your a flathead dummie like me ..
ps, sorry bout my spelling ..

[50flatF3]

I may pull the left head off again...if I do I will check for flatness. And yes I followed the pattern for re torquing. Have retorqued the heads 5 times now. As of last night, I don’t have any coolant in my oil, I don’t have coolant sitting in my #8 cylinder after sitting since Saturday (cranked engine over with plug out) and haven’t had a change in coolant level in my radiator. . I plan to try the Moroso block sealer over the weekend, (that’s a good idea of mixing in a jar) will be flushing the coolant system this week. If I am dealing with a leak it’s a very small one. Am curious to see how it responds, it it doesn’t will be pulling the drivers side head again.

Sam

[AnthonyG]

Sam, I appreciate ur youth energy & wish I had it but don’t take head off yet!!! Try the aluminum or copper powder engine sealer. Its almost a standard that lots of guys try & works especially on the small leaks cracks! If your not seeing coolant in oil any more & just just some steam from one pipe give the sealer a shot. The ones recommended in my earlier post has held for 3 yrs with no issues. Easy try may save money & time! If still persists you can still take the head off but seems to me your close enough to try it!

[50flatF3]

Originally Posted by AnthonyG

Sam, I appreciate ur youth energy & wish I had it but don’t take head off yet!!! Try the aluminum or copper powder engine sealer. Its almost a standard that lots of guys try & works especially on the small leaks cracks! If your not seeing coolant in oil any more & just just some steam from one pipe give the sealer a shot. The ones recommended in my earlier post has held for 3 yrs with no issues. Easy try may save money & time! If still persists you can still take the head off but seems to me your close enough to try it!

I think it’s worth a shot. I did end up picking up some of that alumaseal from oreillys so I will try that first.

The motivation comes from working on this night after night and being so close to the finish line, then I can start a new project ...will report back with the results later this week.

Sam

[50flatF3]

Here is a video of the truck idling.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=eZ9T3Vj8cx0

Sam

[petehoovie]

Originally Posted by 50flatF3

Also here is the picture of the truck. I started the restoration when I was 17 am 24 now so looking forward to wrapping it up. Sam

The color scheme is pleasing....

[50flatF3]

Well guys, the clouds parted and the sun shown through today. Haven’t added any block sealer products yet however I spent all morning driving the truck up and down my road (my neighbors hate me I’m sure) and within an hour of running and driving the light steam disappeared and the exhaust stopped dripping moisture. I can’t help but think sometimes you gotta run these old engines quite a bit to get everything to seal up. Or maybe I was too paranoid about a leak when she just needed to be driven. Whatever it was I hope the issue doesn’t come back. I still plan to add the Morosos sealer for a little insurance.

Sam

[50flatF3]

Originally Posted by petehoovie

The color scheme is pleasing....

Thank you, the cab and hood are Massey Furgeson red

[AnthonyG]

Good job, good thinking on insurance & ur right they like to be driven. Most of us choose not to but year round driving keeps them happier.
Happy motoring & enjoy the experience!

[flatjack9]

There was probably a lot of condensation in the tailpipe and muffler.

[VeryTangled]

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Originally Posted by 50flatF3

Well guys, the clouds parted and the sun shown through today. Sam

That's satisfactory news, eh? Let us know in this thread how it works out going forward. We're rooting for you.

[Tinker]

If you have an internal exhaust leak into coolant you can find that by looking at bubbles in your rad or take the hoses off the head and run it with coolant up to the head tops. If nothing, it's just condensation or a head gasket leak in my thinking. I do very little thinking, and I'm usually wrong. Do like the color scheme and truck a bunch.

[50flatF3]

Hi all just thought I’d give an update. Been a couple weeks and have been enjoying the truck without anymore smoke. I have been having the time of my life cruising even though it rides like wagon on rocks. Time to finish the bed wood, but wanted to say thanks for all your help everyone! Helpful community and resource for these old vehicles, gotta soak up as much knowledge as I can so my generation can carry on these rides...

Sam

[JSeery]

alright!

[AnthonyG]

Great Job Sam! Again I love your energy & your love of the Sport / Hobby! Great to see young guys as you saying they want to carry it on!