advice/opinions '34 sedan

[1934]

There is such a wealth of knowledge on this site and I thought I would ask for some advice about the dilema I have with my '34. I believe this car was originaly a 4 cyl. which, at one point was changed to a V8. Unfortunately they didn't install the longer torque tube/drive shaft needed. They just shoved the rear cross-member forward and welded it inside the frame channel! I would like to re-position the cross-member to it's proper place and install the longer torque tube/dr. shaft. I can't see how I can possibly grind out the welds without removing the body and even then without damaging the frame while grinding. So what do you guys think? Leave it as is and put up with the 'goofy' look? Or deal with it properly? This will be the 3rd time I've had the body off, (don't ask).
Thanks guys, Doug.

[alchemy]

Pull the body and cut the welds with a thin cut-off disc. Shouldn't make too much damage. Align the crossmember with the original rivet holes, then re-rivet and maybe add some hidden welds as well.

[rbone]

Doug - it sounds like it bothers you in its current state. So I would cut the welds off with a cut off tool rather than a torch. Damage should be zero if you take your time. If there is some, it could easily be repaired. Then move it back, reattach, and get the correct length torque tube.

[Bored&Stroked]

Fix it . . . and do it the right way (which is body off). Once you can actually get to the thing, you may find that you need cutt-off wheels or carbide burrs . . . whatever it takes to cut the weld and move the rear cross. My guess in that the original rivet holes will still be there, so it will be obvious as to where it needs to go "back too". Taking the body off is a fairly sizable job (as the fine threaded bolts just tend to be rusted and the cage nuts may not hold) - but you'll get through it. If you damage a cage-nut, or they are just shot, you can buy new ones and spot-weld them back in (that is what I'd do - as you have the body off!).

I'm sure you'll be very happy that you put the ole' girl back in the right form!

B&S

[Charlie Stephens]

Obvious, but be sure you find the right rear end before you tear it apart.

Charlie Stephens

[V8COOPMAN]

Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)

You already know what I think.......do it RIGHT! DD

[FrankWest]

First sit back a while an consider exactly what you want to do.
Even if you find the proper v8 drive shaft the VIN number ON THE TRANSMISSION won't MATCH THE VIN NUMBER ON THE MODEL b FRAME. If that is ok. Then maybe you should just leave everything alone.
If you wanted to fit a model B engine to make the car consistent then you should find an early model B engine and swap it out.

Do you have any photos? would like to see just what they did?

I have a 1933 model B myself.

When open the hood on the left side..the vin number should be on the frame member near the steering column

[bobH]

Proper, correct, 34 rear crossmembers are not too hard to find. I even had one for a long time, which I sold about a year ago at a local swap meet.
With that thought in mind, I'd consider sacrificing the crossmember that is in there. I'd take a good look at the possibility of cutting the majority of it out, then 'finish' remove the stubs, and try for no damage to the rails other than grinding off welds and slag.
I'd do almost anything to avoid removing the body. Been there, done that. And, removing the body is a lot of work, as you know.
I've had no problem finding correct 34 rear ends and driveshafts. And, if necessary, I'd even make the driveshaft and torque tube, if I had to. I wouldn't let this part of the project hold me back.
In short, I'd fix it, as right as possible, and I'd do almost anything to not remove the body.

[rick r]

Gouging tip on a plasma cutter may be helpful in removing welds

[V8COOPMAN]

Originally Posted by FrankWest

First sit back a while an consider exactly what you want to do.
Even if you find the proper v8 drive shaft the VIN numberON THE TRANSMISSION won't MATCH THE VIN NUMBER ON THE MODEL b FRAME. If that is ok. Then maybe you should just leave everything alone.
If you wanted to fit a model B engine to make the car consistent then you should find an early model B engine and swap it out.

Do you have any photos? would like to see just what they did?

I have a 1933 model B myself.

Frank.........Look at the picture just above YOUR post. That IS Doug's car. Look closely at the REAR tire. IT IS TOO FAR FORWARD in the fender opening. Some IDIOT with no clue didn't realize that there were two different length torque tubes and drive shafts between the 4-cylinder and V8 engines. When he swapped the V8 for the 4-cylinder, the D/S and TT were too short. So he hacked the rear crossmember forward and welded it in place rather than using the correct-length parts. This has nothing to do with numbers on a transmission. This does show that SOME people without a clue (NOT Doug) have no business owning or working on an old car. DD

[1934]

Thanks so much guys for all the comments! DD, merci for posting the picture. Frank, at this point I'm not too concerned with matching numbers as the chassis on this car is from a 3-window coupe and the motor is a '37 V8. A friend of mine has a T.T. and dr. shaft for a V8 so that's not an issue.I won't have to fight with rusty bolts to get the body off because I used new ones the last time I had it off. It's my own stupidity for not having noticed that the crossmember was in the wrong place when the body was off and I had the chance to deal with it! It's just so time-consuming and I'm getting lazy in my old age! Anyway, I know what I have to do and I'll keep you posted. Many thanks, Doug.

[FrankWest]

Originally Posted by 1934

Thanks so much guys for all the comments! DD, merci for posting the picture. Frank, at this point I'm not too concerned with matching numbers as the chassis on this car is from a 3-window coupe and the motor is a '37 V8. A friend of mine has a T.T. and dr. shaft for a V8 so that's not an issue.I won't have to fight with rusty bolts to get the body off because I used new ones the last time I had it off. It's my own stupidity for not having noticed that the crossmember was in the wrong place when the body was off and I had the chance to deal with it! It's just so time-consuming and I'm getting lazy in my old age! Anyway, I know what I have to do and I'll keep you posted. Many thanks, Doug.

It's hard to notice everything. Just remember these cars are old and becoming more and more scarce as time goes on. All of us have to obtain raw cars as best we can get them and transform them into the car we really want. the more original parts we can find the better..but it is almost impossible to find perfect complete cars out there...Most have been really messed around with..We have to untangle what has been done to them to build the car of our dreams.

[Bored&Stroked]

Since it's been off before - it will not be a big deal pulling the body again. If you had two guys working and all the parts ready before you started, my bet is that you could get this done in 3 days (at the most) . . . and not kill yourselves.

[1934]

Amen, Frank! You really hit the nail on the head! I didn't want to bore you guys with all the gory details but indulge me; I bought the car when I was living in western Canada. It was a rock-solid car with no rust in the floors but the previous owner had started to make it into a 'hot rod'. The frame had been really butchered with all kinds of nasty welds and holes and God knows what. The fire-wall was butchered too with a battery box and part of it cut out to accomodate a bigger motor, (there was no motor when I bought it). I found another fire-wall and a guy I met out there did a beautiful job installing it. The first thing I did was to remove the body to sandblast underneath. I wasn't happy with the frame but put it back together anyway. Shortly after that I heard about a guy who bought a 3window coupe and was selling the chassis because he was planning on building a street rod. This chassis was supposedly 'restored', (I use the term loosely). So I bought it, took the body off again and installed the 3window chassis.Then I moved back east so trailered it home behind a U-Haul truck, (2500 miles). When I got back east I removed the body again, (and I can't remember why but there must have been some other stuff to do with the body off). Anyway through all this I never realized the crossmember was pushed ahead. The '37 motor is a strong runner and I wouldn't consider changing it even though it's not original. It has the block-off plates and water pumps on the heads so it looks ok. So that's the story in a nut-shell. Sorry for the 'rant' and to quote one of our fellow Barners; "Thank God it's only a hobby".
Doug.

[1934]

I thought I'd update my 'progress' with the car. I bought the correct torque tube/drive shaft from a fellow barner in western Canada. I removed the rear fenders, gas tank, rear axle ass.etc. etc.and now trying to deal with the rear crossmember which needs to be brought back to it's original position. The problem is that they welded the 6 rivet holesinto the top channel of the frame. I can only drill them at an angle, (because of the bottom frame rail), to try to get the weld out of these holes. I know I'm going to mangle these holes trying to get the weld out, (IF I can get the weld out).
Any thoughts or suggestions would be much appreciated.
Thanks, Doug.

[johnboy34]

You can get a 45 or 90 degree drill attachment.
http://www.harborfreight.com/38-in-9...ent-69337.html

[1934]

Having fun, (kinda).IMG_20160724_090751.jpg

[1934]

More pics.[ATTACH]IMG_20160724_090841.jpg[/ATTACH]

[JM 35 Sedan]

Doug, I don't mean to be critical, but please be careful getting under that car with what appears to be only 4x4's and 2x4's stacked under the frame, on each side, holding that car up in the rear. Maybe you also have some jack stands located along the frame, but out of sight, or something else, not apparent in those pictures, holding it up.

[1934]

John, if you look closely at the pics you'll see that the bucket of my tractor is what is holding the car up. The blocks hold it up if I need to take the tractor away for something. But I would never crawl around under it with just those blocks! Thanks for your concern; you can't be too careful!
Doug.

[VeryTangled]

Originally Posted by 1934

John, if you look closely at the pics you'll see that the bucket of my tractor is what is holding the car up. Doug.

Hi Everyone, Well there's a new way to get yer' back tires up in the air! Handy thing you've got there!

That's an interesting looking rear spring. The leaves are flat ended, it seems.

[JM 35 Sedan]

Originally Posted by 1934

John, if you look closely at the pics you'll see that the bucket of my tractor is what is holding the car up. The blocks hold it up if I need to take the tractor away for something. But I would never crawl around under it with just those blocks! Thanks for your concern; you can't be too careful!
Doug.

Okay, great! I did not see that as being a tractor bucket, but I feel better now . After having a car fall on someone I knew, and nearly having one fall on me in my late teens to early twenties, I am now a bit paranoid about getting under a car that's jacked up. Last month I had the rear out of my '35 fordor and six jack stands under the frame and some back up supports for those, and some back ups for the back ups . I took some pics of all of this, and will post if I can find them.

[19Fordy]

1934 Don't kick the bucket. Put some 4 legged jack stands under the car instead of those 4x4's. Too easy for those pieces of wood to wobble and collapse.
Looks like you're making great progress.

[Capt Kirk]

Photo evidence of John in his younger years

[Capt Kirk]

Here it is

[JM 35 Sedan]

Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)

Originally Posted by Capt Kirk

Here it is

Now that right there is what I'm talking about . That's the picture that subconsciously goes through my mind whenever I get under my car. I always wondered if that guy got his truck repaired, OR.....???

[Bored&Stroked]

I realize it is a major pain in the butt to pull the body again, but I really think that is what should be done to remove/repair the cross-member. It is one of those things that initially sounds like too much work, but since you've obviously done it a few times before, I think you'll find it to be easier in the end. Being able to rivet and/or weld from above the frame will be a lot better in my mind. I know I can't TIG weld above my head worth a crap, but can weld all day when I'm sitting down and working from above. Good luck - will be great to see this car with the rear-end where it belongs.

[1934]

Yes, the body has to come off. There's just no other way to deal with the cross member. Nice to know you guys are out there and I appreciate the comments and positive reinforcement!
I will keep you posted with the progress.
Many thanks, Doug.

[Bored&Stroked]

And Doug - just to show yah I really care . . . her is my first car . . . had the body off a couple times

34FirstYearAntiqueNates3.jpg

1934Ford-4Door-Angle.jpg

Then I swapped the body to a guy - just had to have a coupe (which I still have):

1934Ford-Coupe-Races2.jpg

[mercman from oz]

So many people are ignorant about the two different length Tail Shafts in the 33 and 34 Fords. They think that they can just swap a V8 in a car that was originally a 4 with no other changes except the Gearbox. This is the first time I have heard the rear cross member being moved forward. I know of two examples locally where the owner has recessed the Firewall so that the engine and gearbox matches up with the tailshaft. It is great that you are making good progress in rectifying this mistake. Take care when working under the car. Also be careful of sparks from the cutting wheel near the fuel tank.

[1934]

Nice looking car, B. and S. Thanks for posting! Mercman, no worries- one of the first things I did was to remove the fuel tank, (and the gas line).
Doug.

[Frank Miller]

Originally Posted by 1934

John, if you look closely at the pics you'll see that the bucket of my tractor is what is holding the car up. The blocks hold it up if I need to take the tractor away for something. But I would never crawl around under it with just those blocks! Thanks for your concern; you can't be too careful!
Doug.

The rubber o rings in the tractor are what is holding that car up. I always use jack stands. they're relatively cheap and I readily acknowledge that placing them under the car is the most dangerous thing because you crawl under with it on the jack.

[V8COOPMAN]

Originally Posted by Frank Miller

The rubber o rings in the tractor are what is holding that car up.

How is it that the "o rings in the tractor" are holding-up the car? The bucket certainly appears to be resting on the concrete floor. DD

[Bob NH]

I would offer my "Two cents" as well. If you think there is even a remote possibility of body removal again down the road, consider "Velcro" instead of bolts. I do agree with all the other guys, Do it over and do it right, you will not be sorry. Although a four door sedan is not the tops in desirability it is after all a 34 and we have to save them all ! Do you know of friends who have a spare frame ? Another thought. I was interested in a 34 sedan in NY state a few years ago and was told it has a bit of rust, went out with a trailer and cash. Not pretty ! You would have had to "bondo" it up to the door handles, so we left it. Best of luck and don't get discouraged .

[1934]

Ok guys- no more 4 x 4s, jack stands, or tractor buckets! I re-installed the rear axle, temporarily, (without the torque tube/drive shaft). Now I can safely crawl around underneath and remove the body bolts. Once the body is off I can deal with the cross-member from the top of the chassis without 'fearing for my life'! Thanks again for all your comments.
Doug.

[johnboy34]

Originally Posted by V8COOPMAN

How is it that the "o rings in the tractor" are holding-up the car? The bucket certainly appears to be resting on the concrete floor. DD

Because the o-rings are keeping the bucket from rolling to the open position!

[1934]

Hi guys, got the body off with help from my son, (and the Kubota). Now the fun begins! Lots of welds to deal with on the cross member.
Doug.

[Bored&Stroked]

Great Job! We all realize it is a big pain to do this, but you'll be so much happier in the end - as you'll actually be able to do the job correctly and not be working upside down from the floor. You might think about some rear shocks at the same time - as I didn't see the stock ones (which are very hard to find). Having a set of shocks on these old cars really does improve the handling.

Keep us posted!

[1934]

Yes, I have the rear shocks. I just took them off when I was taking everything apart. Thanks,
Doug.

[svm99]

Originally Posted by Bored&Stroked

And Doug - just to show yah I really care . . . her is my first car . . . had the body off a couple times

Attachment 279096

Attachment 279097

Then I swapped the body to a guy - just had to have a coupe (which I still have):

Attachment 279098

I just saw the picture of your 4 door w/o fenders. Did you race this car at Irwindale in the mid 70's at the Antique National drags? If not there was one there which looked just like it.
Paul J.

[Bored&Stroked]

Originally Posted by svm99

I just saw the picture of your 4 door w/o fenders. Did you race this car at Irwindale in the mid 70's at the Antique National drags? If not there was one there which looked just like it.
Paul J.

Yes Paul, that was me . . . first time at the drags, brought my new pride and joy out there. The whole family came along to support my "newbie" efforts - along with my mentor 'Joe Reath'. The good news, somehow managed to get 1st place in whatever class they had me in - if I remember, a 15.2 or so (not exactly fast!). Were you racing at the time?

34FirstYearAntiqueNates5.jpg

34FirstYearAntiqueNates6.jpg

Hays003.jpg

IMG_0476.jpg

Sorry about hijacking the thread - but at least it is another 4 door!

D

[1934]

Here's an update on my progress;
I finally got the xmember in its correct position. It had been welded in 10 places, (5 on each side), and it was quite a challenge to free it up without damaging the frame or the xmember. They had welded the 3 holes on the top channel and the 2 ears on the bottom, (on each side). At one point I thought I would have to sacrifice the xmember and cut it out in pieces then try to find another one. Drilling out the weld in the holes was fairly easy but a lot of the weld had oozed btween the frame and the xmember. There wasn't enough room to use the cut-off disc without cutting into the frame or xmember so I had to use hack saw blades, (and lots of elbow grease). It was a painstaking task and very time consuming but it's done! Can't wait to see how she looks with the rear wheels where they're supposed to be!
Here's what I used; grinder, punch, drill, chisel, and hack saw blades.(Old-school stuff but effective).
I'll send some pictures soon.
Doug.

[Mike in AZ]

wow, definitely some hard work there....congrats on hanging in and getting it done....Mike