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Old 05-21-2022, 09:21 PM   #1
restomod
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Default Hello from Upstate NY with my 1930 Model A

Hello there! I have taken ownership of the grandfather's 1930 Model A Truck, he is still around but has signed it over to me for safe keeping as he is 93 and doesn't drive it much anymore.

I have joined the national level club as well as the Sullivan Trail A's who are the closest club to me. I joined here last year but parked the truck and am just now getting it running. I am in the heart of kids and kids sports so my time is limited often.

Everyone has been super helpful any place I go online and I appreciate the time and patience you all have working with noobs and learning mechanics. The truck was not running when I got as my grandpa left it running over the winter last year and it melted some wiring.

With the help of @Jim.Morris2831 over the phone and through emails I have accomplished a lot for someone who didn't know a thing. With that said I am having an issue I could use help on.

I am in no way saying that new parts on this project are considered good in any way. So when I say I replaced something, doesn't mean I did it right or that the part may have been defective from the start.

I have replaced the Ignition switch, ignition cable traveling from the switch to the base of distro, the wiring from the switch to the coil +, the wire from the terminal to the coil -, the wires from the ammeter to the terminal box, and the coil itself. Also the lower plate was reused in the distro (brass tongue newer style), and I replaced the condenser on the top plate as well as changed to modern ford v8 style points. Also new cap modern style, new rotor, plug wires, as well as new wire from the top of the cap to the bottom of the coil.

Please don't kill me on the choices of modern versus not. I ordered all of this from Snyder's before I even understood what I was ordering. Someday down the road I will make changes based on actual experience and personal taste, but for now this is what I have to work with and I am just trying to get it running.

Here is where I am now, I thought that all my issues were going to be with timing the car but with the nu-wrench it seemed straight forward once Jim talked me of the ledge.

I got everything changed out and buttoned up, key is off, I hit the starter and I at least get it to turn over. Turn the key on, turn it over and no difference, does not start, cranks and cranks but will not start.

I have a test light, with the key off I have a light on both terminal nuts as well as both side of the coil posts. However if I take the coil wire that is coming out of the coil and set it near a bolt head I get no spark when turning it over. I mean 0 no matter what I try. I have two wires to try from the coil to the head and neither give spark so I don't think it's the wire. I took the wires off the coil and put them on the one that was in the car when I got it and tried to get spark at the block as well and nothing.

Any suggestions on testing/troubleshooting that will help me systematically eliminate issues? Like I said new doesn't really mean I trust it so I am all ears on the process to test each section. I have a test light and a volt meter if that helps. Go slow though as I am new to all the electrical bits.

Also I should mention if it helps that I have a fuse and it is fine since I started trying to start it, it is not blown. Second I don't seem to have a horn or lights which from watching videos seems bad.

Thanks for your time!
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Old 05-22-2022, 03:44 AM   #2
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Default Re: Hello from Upstate NY with my 1930 Model A

Is the vehicle still 6V, positive ground? Where exactly do you have the ignition switch wired into the distributor? It should either be wired to the brass tongue as you called it on the base plate with the wire coming from the base plate going to the terminal on the points or it can be wired directly to the points terminal on the upper plate.

I would verify that your ignition wiring is not shorting in the distributor anywhere and is in one of the correct locations.

After that, check the negative side of the coil by connecting the negative lead of your volt meter to the negative terminal of the coil, positive lead to a ground and confirming voltage is present.

From this point on, switch your volt meter to continuity and move one lead to the positive coil terminal. Then use the other meter lead to check that you have continuity to the wire coming off of the ignition switch where it connects to the distributor, wether that is the base plate "tongue" or the points terminal on the upper plate. If that looks OK, then I would check continuity at the points themselves.

At the points, if they are closed, you should be able to follow continuity all the way to the ground of the plate and the vehicle. If you get it reading continuity this far, leave the meter setup and then manually open the points with something non-conductive and you should see a break in continuity. If you see this break, then that confirms all of the wiring is correct and from there all you would need to do is set the appropriate points gap.

The safety fuse installs in-line on the yellow wire that goes from the passenger side of the terminal block to the starter post. You can verify this is correct and working by checking with a voltmeter that you have 6V when connecting to the passenger side of the terminal block with the negative lead of a volt meter and connecting the positive side to a chassis ground.

For your horn and headlights, those are fed by a yellow/black wire that begins at the drivers side of the terminal block, which then runs along the drivers side of the engine, over the coolant outlet and oil filler/breather tube and finally to the generator cut-out. At the cut-out, it should be bolted to a terminal along with two other wires -- those two other wires run to the horn and the headlight switch.

Last edited by SonicRaT; 05-22-2022 at 04:08 AM.
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Old 05-22-2022, 06:18 AM   #3
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Default Re: Hello from Upstate NY with my 1930 Model A

Welcome to the 'Barn!
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Old 05-22-2022, 07:13 AM   #4
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Welcome to the Barn. Enjoy your new treasure! Wayne
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Old 05-22-2022, 10:42 AM   #5
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Default Re: Hello from Upstate NY with my 1930 Model A

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The truck was not running when I got as my grandpa left it running over the winter last year
That's a stretch.
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Old 05-22-2022, 11:18 AM   #6
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Default Re: Hello from Upstate NY with my 1930 Model A

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Welcome and I will add my 2 cents worth of electrical knowledge.

1) check the fuse very very carefully. I have seen them blow at the ends and not in the middle where can see the break. It is very rare but can happen and it did to a club members car, swapped fuse and he had lights, horn and a running engine.

2) make sure that you don’t thread the armored cable in too tight as it will push the lower plate out of alignment and it will ground out the ignition system.

3) check you your points/cam/upper distributor plate for any side to side play. Mine would only fire on 1/3 until I changed out the worn points.

Mike
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Old 05-22-2022, 12:11 PM   #7
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Default Re: Hello from Upstate NY with my 1930 Model A

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Originally Posted by SonicRaT View Post
Is the vehicle still 6V, positive ground? Where exactly do you have the ignition switch wired into the distributor? It should either be wired to the brass tongue as you called it on the base plate with the wire coming from the base plate going to the terminal on the points or it can be wired directly to the points terminal on the upper plate.

I would verify that your ignition wiring is not shorting in the distributor anywhere and is in one of the correct locations.

After that, check the negative side of the coil by connecting the negative lead of your volt meter to the negative terminal of the coil, positive lead to a ground and confirming voltage is present.

From this point on, switch your volt meter to continuity and move one lead to the positive coil terminal. Then use the other meter lead to check that you have continuity to the wire coming off of the ignition switch where it connects to the distributor, wether that is the base plate "tongue" or the points terminal on the upper plate. If that looks OK, then I would check continuity at the points themselves.

At the points, if they are closed, you should be able to follow continuity all the way to the ground of the plate and the vehicle. If you get it reading continuity this far, leave the meter setup and then manually open the points with something non-conductive and you should see a break in continuity. If you see this break, then that confirms all of the wiring is correct and from there all you would need to do is set the appropriate points gap.

The safety fuse installs in-line on the yellow wire that goes from the passenger side of the terminal block to the starter post. You can verify this is correct and working by checking with a voltmeter that you have 6V when connecting to the passenger side of the terminal block with the negative lead of a volt meter and connecting the positive side to a chassis ground.

For your horn and headlights, those are fed by a yellow/black wire that begins at the drivers side of the terminal block, which then runs along the drivers side of the engine, over the coolant outlet and oil filler/breather tube and finally to the generator cut-out. At the cut-out, it should be bolted to a terminal along with two other wires -- those two other wires run to the horn and the headlight switch.
Thanks for your reply. Correct on still 6v positive ground. My wiring is exactly like the wiring diagram I have that I got from Snyder's now. Red wire from the ignition switch direct to the + side of the coil, black wire direct to the base of the distro with the black wire with metal shielding. It is screwed in and should be touching the metal tab inside the distro on the bottom plate. The bottom plate is the brass style (no wire) and the top plate is modern points/condenser with the brass arm that goes down to touch the bottom plate.

1a. I will try your first step of checking the negative side of the coil, since I am not quite getting the flow of this, does it matter if the ignition key is off or on? Or either way it doesn't matter? Also points closed or open, or doesn't matter?

2a. Will do here as well, again my question is key on/off, or doesn't matter? Also points position or doesn't matter? I think you can tell here with these questions that I am not quite getting how a circuit works if these are dumb questions but I am trying.

3a. Will test this as well for continuity all the way with the points closed. Can you tell me where specifically here the two leads should be from the meter?

4a. Straight forward on testing the inline fuse, will let you know here as well

5a. I have never traced the horn/lights that far and will double check that, as well as the conneciton in the terminal box

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That's a stretch.
Not sure what you mean? He started it periodically in the winter only for a few minutes. This time with a full tank of gas he started it and walked away, it ran until it ran out of gas literally. There were blankets over the hood as well which did not help, the heat generate melted a few things and is what started me on this journey

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Welcome and I will add my 2 cents worth of electrical knowledge.

1) check the fuse very very carefully. I have seen them blow at the ends and not in the middle where can see the break. It is very rare but can happen and it did to a club members car, swapped fuse and he had lights, horn and a running engine.

2) make sure that you don’t thread the armored cable in too tight as it will push the lower plate out of alignment and it will ground out the ignition system.

3) check you your points/cam/upper distributor plate for any side to side play. Mine would only fire on 1/3 until I changed out the worn points.

Mike
Thanks for the welcome!

1b. I checked the fuse for the middle but will def check the ends now. I will also try a replacement as well if I have one. Will also check with the meter as Sonic suggested and report back.

2b. This is a def possibility of being either in too far and grounding, or not being far enough. I am guessing if it is not far enough the testing above with the meter to the base plate would show that. If in too far I will try backing it out a turn as well.

3b. I can verify that there is no side to side play that I can see and they are brand new points gapped to .20 on all 4 lobes of the cam.

Last edited by restomod; 05-22-2022 at 12:57 PM.
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Old 05-22-2022, 01:18 PM   #8
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1a. With the key in the off position and the neg lead on the neg coil post, red to ground I am getting voltage. What should it be or as long as there is any it's ok?

2a. Set to continuity, with the key on and with the red lead on the pos side of the coil/red wire and the black lead on the end of the ignition switch (pulled it out the bottom of the distro) I get continuity, all 0's.

3a. Confusing to me however is that with the ignition switch black wire separated from the base of the distro completely, I get continuity from the + side of the coil to the base plate, upper plate, and anything I touch in the distro? This confuses me as there is nothing going to the distro, it's just there by itself with the points open?

1b. I tested the fuse for continuity and it's fine, passing continuity with all 0's on the meter.

2b. I pulled it all the way out but haven't put it back in until I can figure out 3a, which doesn't make sense to me.
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Old 05-22-2022, 01:44 PM   #9
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Default Re: Hello from Upstate NY with my 1930 Model A

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That's a stretch.
That must have ate a lot of gas.
Anyway...Welcome to the Barn...
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Old 05-22-2022, 04:21 PM   #10
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1a. With the key in the off position and the neg lead on the neg coil post, red to ground I am getting voltage. What should it be or as long as there is any it's ok?

2a. Set to continuity, with the key on and with the red lead on the pos side of the coil/red wire and the black lead on the end of the ignition switch (pulled it out the bottom of the distro) I get continuity, all 0's.

3a. Confusing to me however is that with the ignition switch black wire separated from the base of the distro completely, I get continuity from the + side of the coil to the base plate, upper plate, and anything I touch in the distro? This confuses me as there is nothing going to the distro, it's just there by itself with the points open?

1b. I tested the fuse for continuity and it's fine, passing continuity with all 0's on the meter.

2b. I pulled it all the way out but haven't put it back in until I can figure out 3a, which doesn't make sense to me.
I'm sorry, I should have verified what type of ignition switch and wire you were using, is it an original pop-out switch ignition or a replacement switch? Is the wire you are using an original, shielded conduit cable that inserts into both the distributor and the switch, or one of the modern style shielded cables that has a black wire coming out of the end that you wire to the ignition switch terminal? For some reason I was reading your post as if you had just a regular wire between the a modern ignition switch and the distributor.

Responding directly to your numbered points:

1a: You should see around 6v between chassis ground and the negative terminal of the coil at all times.

3a: This does sound odd. The path to "ground" (positive) in this case, should come through the distributor, through the wire to the ignition switch, and then to the coil. If it is an original style pop-out switch, the switch will "ground" the conduit wire at all times in the off-position, with the red wire disconnected from the circuit. However, you should not be seeing continuity from that red wire/positive side of the coil to any ground with the black wire removed. Does it change if the ignition switch is on/off? If that wire is seeing continuity to ground despite the rest of the circuit, that explains your lack of spark, as the points are generally what should "interrupt" the circuits path to ground and allow the coil to fire. In this case though, it seems to be picking up a ground signal from somewhere else... I would start by double checking that the negative coil lead goes to the terminal block, positive lead goes through the coil block to the ignition switch terminal, and the other ignition switch terminal (or, if original, the slot where it inserts in), goes to the distributor cable. Make sure there are no shorts or areas where it may be making contact with the body. If it is an original pop-out switch, it may be faulty and grounding that red wire by itself through the body of the switch.

Below is what I refer to as the "modern" type of cable.

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Old 05-22-2022, 05:08 PM   #11
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I'm sorry, I should have verified what type of ignition switch and wire you were using, is it an original pop-out switch ignition or a replacement switch? Is the wire you are using an original, shielded conduit cable that inserts into both the distributor and the switch, or one of the modern style shielded cables that has a black wire coming out of the end that you wire to the ignition switch terminal? For some reason I was reading your post as if you had just a regular wire between the a modern ignition switch and the distributor.

Responding directly to your numbered points:

1a: You should see around 6v between chassis ground and the negative terminal of the coil at all times.

3a: This does sound odd. The path to "ground" (positive) in this case, should come through the distributor, through the wire to the ignition switch, and then to the coil. If it is an original style pop-out switch, the switch will "ground" the conduit wire at all times in the off-position, with the red wire disconnected from the circuit. However, you should not be seeing continuity from that red wire/positive side of the coil to any ground with the black wire removed. Does it change if the ignition switch is on/off? If that wire is seeing continuity to ground despite the rest of the circuit, that explains your lack of spark, as the points are generally what should "interrupt" the circuits path to ground and allow the coil to fire. In this case though, it seems to be picking up a ground signal from somewhere else... I would start by double checking that the negative coil lead goes to the terminal block, positive lead goes through the coil block to the ignition switch terminal, and the other ignition switch terminal (or, if original, the slot where it inserts in), goes to the distributor cable. Make sure there are no shorts or areas where it may be making contact with the body. If it is an original pop-out switch, it may be faulty and grounding that red wire by itself through the body of the switch.

Below is what I refer to as the "modern" type of cable.

1a. I'm not near the car but I don't think I was getting 6, often times 3 at best but it seemed all over the place. I did try the old coil but it's possible it was bad as well so not a reliable test really.

Everything I have purchased was from Snyder's so I can give you the SkU to there: A-11575-ERM is the cable you showed in your pic and just a basic switch no pop out I believe.

2a. I need to try taking pics as I am doing all the testing to make sure I am not losing anything in translation and will report back.
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Old 05-22-2022, 05:33 PM   #12
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Gotcha. It sounds like something is not quite right on both sides of the coil.

The negative coil terminal should have a short, black wire that connects to the terminal block, typically on the drivers side. On this same terminal post, should be a yellow/black wire coming from the ammeter and another yellow/black that runs down to the generator cut-out. The other terminal (on the passenger side), will have two yellow wires -- one coming from the safety fuse and the other going to the ammeter.

With this configuration, you should see a solid 6V between the negative terminal and ground on the car at all times -- it should stay consistent and not fluctuate.

The ignition switch you have should be a simple switch, so it shouldn't ground or interfere with the terminals in any way other than switching them together. You should have one terminal of the switch directly to the positive coil terminal, and it should be the only wire the coil. The black lead coming from the security cable conduit should run to the other side of that switch.

When all is working well, you should have continuity from that positive coil terminal, through the red wire, to the ignition switch. With the ignition switch "ON", continuity should travel through the black conduit cable, to the distributor lower plate where the brass plunger presses against the lower plate terminal. Continuity should then travel from that lower plate through the lower plate wire to the upper plate point terminal. The points then complete the circuit to ground when they close and make contact with the stationary portion of the points, which are grounded to the upper plate, that grounds through the distributor body to the engine.

If you want quicker help, you can PM me and I can provide my email/phone if you need some faster assistance.
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Old 05-22-2022, 06:24 PM   #13
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Your first paragraph is exactly as described for my setup. Brand new short black wire for the - side of the coil to the terminal on the driver's side. Brand new yellow/black and yellow wire from the ammeter to both locations as you described. I installed the fuse on top of the starter myself last year and those wires appear correct.

I will test again for the 6 volts on the negative side when I get home.

Your next paragraph is exactly how I have it wired as well, red to cool and black through conduit to the base of the distro.

If I am not getting a constant 6 to the neg side is that leaning towards the coil? Or to early to tell?

I will PM you when I get to the car! Thanks!
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Old 05-22-2022, 06:40 PM   #14
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If I am not getting a constant 6 to the neg side is that leaning towards the coil? Or to early to tell?
This would suggest some manner of bad wiring either to the coil itself, or from the battery to ground.

If you're seeing less than 6 volts there or inconsistent voltage, I would check that you have 6 volts in the following places with the positive lead of the meter connected to a good ground (such as the head bolts):
  • negative lead to starter switch terminal (where battery cable runs)
  • negative lead to safety fuse wire coming from starter terminal
  • negative lead to safety fuse wire leading to terminal block
  • negative lead to passenger terminal post
  • negative lead to drivers terminal post
  • negative lead to coil negative terminal

Somewhere along that path you should find that voltage drops or is lost. If it is missing at all of them, perhaps you have a faulty ground, so you could try moving the positive lead somewhere else and re-checking to confirm.
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Old 05-23-2022, 09:30 AM   #15
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Thanks for those testing steps, haven't been able to try them yet. I just realized I can't PM yet either until I get my post count up but will soon.
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Old 05-23-2022, 09:43 AM   #16
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Here are two more tips:

These cars HAVE to have Great grounding for them to work properly. If there is any corrosion on the ground it will make things hard on her. So check the battery to ground and maybe add another from tranny to frame.

Since you have a wireless dist. Check the lower plate to make sure that the upper plate has not gouged it and is grounding. I never had that problem but some have.

And for the ca me into the dist. You only need to thread it in a few turns until you get contact. After that you risk the grounding issue.

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Old 05-23-2022, 10:02 AM   #17
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This time with a full tank of gas he started it and walked away, it ran until it ran out of gas literally.
If the engine stopped w/the points closed, it's possible the coil is fried.
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Old 05-23-2022, 10:08 AM   #18
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Here are two more tips:

These cars HAVE to have Great grounding for them to work properly. If there is any corrosion on the ground it will make things hard on her. So check the battery to ground and maybe add another from tranny to frame.

Since you have a wireless dist. Check the lower plate to make sure that the upper plate has not gouged it and is grounding. I never had that problem but some have.

And for the ca me into the dist. You only need to thread it in a few turns until you get contact. After that you risk the grounding issue.

Mike
Thanks! Will check those and in some of the other testing I have 'maybe' eliminated the lower plate and wire into the distro as I took it back out for now.

I will add the battery to my list to look at tonight. With a bad ground would the starter even work?

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If the engine stopped w/the points closed, it's possible the coil is fried.
Correct, pretty much everything was fried, the coil in the car is brand new now. Not saying its eliminated from being issue out of the box, but it is new.
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Old 05-23-2022, 10:23 AM   #19
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the coil in the car is brand new now. Not saying its eliminated from being issue out of the box, but it is new.
Hopefully it's a 6 volt coil and not a 12 volt.
With at least one wire removed from the coil check the resistance across the coil, should be ~ 1.5 ohms for 6 volt, it it's ~3 ohms it's 12 volt.
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Old 05-23-2022, 10:25 AM   #20
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Hopefully it's a 6 volt coil and not a 12 volt.
With at least one wire removed from the coil check the resistance across the coil, should be ~ 1.5 ohms for 6 volt, it it's ~3 ohms it's 12 volt.
I have the box for the coil, it's from Snyder's. I triple checked my order and the box, 100% 6 volt. Will try the resistance as well tonight.
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Old 05-24-2022, 09:37 AM   #21
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Huge huge thank you to @SonicRaT for spending hours with me on a video call last night. He walked me through systematically ruling out everything with detailed instructions. Never once laughed at my dumb questions!

Turns out for whatever reason that we can not tell that the base plate in the distro was grounding out someplace. Luckily I had a new spare and ditched the brass base tongue style and brass arm that was in it previously. Put the normal wired base plate in and I am getting spark to the head bolt from the coil wire!!! Never would have figured it out, ever with the amount of things we tested and retested.

Ran out of time to re-time the distro (no pun intended) but the points are re-gapped and I am hopefully going to get it all buttoned up tonight.
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Old 05-25-2022, 12:47 PM   #22
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Got it all back together, retimed and it fired up; for about 30 seconds and died. This time I could tell it was fuel, blew the air compressor back up the line from the carb and voila got a good stream!

Runs like a champ and I took it for it's first voyage for me today!



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Old 05-25-2022, 02:40 PM   #23
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Location: Portsmouth, Virginia
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Default Re: Hello from Upstate NY with my 1930 Model A

Congratulations! Nice pickup!
Ivan in southeast va. is offline   Reply With Quote
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