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Old 05-17-2022, 10:26 AM   #1
Fred A
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Default Swage Or Not To Swage?

My front drums are new and all the parts are new. The arc of the shoes is right. Since the brakes have not been run, it's starting to worry me about the new drums not being swaged to the lugs. If I were to swage, could they loose concentricity, and need to be turned? One of those haunting afterthoughts... Thanks: Fred A
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Old 05-17-2022, 10:51 AM   #2
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Default Re: Swage Or Not To Swage?

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My front drums are new and all the parts are new. The arc of the shoes is right. Since the brakes have not been run, it's starting to worry me about the new drums not being swaged to the lugs. If I were to swage, could they loose concentricity, and need to be turned? One of those haunting afterthoughts... Thanks: Fred A
Fred, I did this recently with 40 type hubs and I'll try to post the part # of the studs I used.
It was a lot of trial and error finding the right ones. I also got them all from Rock Auto. Best prices around on parts like this.

I used Dorman studs that have a serrated shoulder. I had to ream out the holes in the hub ever so slightly, but then the studs are pulled through the hub with a nut. The serrations bite into the hub, locking them in place.

Worked great and still 100% centric. No issues.

The problem with swageding them is it takes the right way of supporting the assembly and a 50 ton press. Not many places doing it anymore.
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Old 05-17-2022, 11:56 AM   #3
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Default Re: Swage Or Not To Swage?

Probably would break those new cast iron drums if you would try to swage the studs; if you could even find any that would match the added thickness of the center on the new drum.
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Old 05-17-2022, 11:58 AM   #4
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Default Re: Swage Or Not To Swage?

Are you talking about swaging the drums to the studs . . . or the studs to the hub? I believe you're talking about the drums to the stubs???
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Old 05-17-2022, 12:08 PM   #5
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Are you talking about swaging the drums to the studs . . . or the studs to the hub? I believe you're talking about the drums to the stubs???
Good point, Dale. Depending on the year, either the hub or drum was swedged.


'40 style brakes, the OEM studs had a non-serrated shoulder which sat perfectly in the hole in the hub and stepped down slightly when coming through the drum. The swedge filled that void and, by the nature of high pressure, filled and wedged the stud into the slightly larger holes in the drum.

On '42-later, that uses the hub on the outside, it was reversed. The swedging was done on the hub.

Last edited by Tim Ayers; 05-17-2022 at 12:20 PM.
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Old 05-17-2022, 03:21 PM   #6
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Default Re: Swage Or Not To Swage?

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I have new inside hubs with the studs swaged to that hub. I'm concerned with the unsecured drums. Optionally, must I do anything different? Thanks for the advice. Fred A
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Old 05-17-2022, 04:46 PM   #7
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Default Re: Swage Or Not To Swage?

That's the way all other cars with similar brake setups do it. The only thing securing the drums are a couple of flimsy "speed nuts" (which usually disappear after the first brake job). What's so different about the earlier brakes? The lug nuts exert enough clamping force to hold the wheel on, why not a brake drum sandwiched between the hub and wheel?
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Old 05-17-2022, 05:59 PM   #8
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That's the way all other cars with similar brake setups do it. What's so different about the earlier brakes? The lug nuts exert enough clamping force to hold the wheel on, why not a brake drum sandwiched between the hub and wheel?
I've got to agree with "tubman" ....back in MY early days, besides these old Fords, I 'came-up' messing with '55-'57 Chevys and EARLY, drum-brake Corvettes. Those drums slid-off in your hands once you un-bolted a wheel. And those brakes all worked far better than Ford's Lockheed brakes, too! Coop

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Old 05-17-2022, 06:03 PM   #9
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Default Re: Swage Or Not To Swage?

I do think the only difference is, once the swedge is removed from a '40 style drum, the hole is oversized if one is using Ford OEM studs. It could cause an out of round condition I'd assume. You'd have to tack weld the stud to the drum, otherwise when you take the lug nut off, there is nothing keeping it in place.

The new, knurled oversized studs solve that issue.
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Old 05-17-2022, 06:45 PM   #10
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I do think the only difference is, once the swedge is removed from a '40 style drum, the hole is oversized if one is using Ford OEM studs.

The new, knurled oversized studs solve that issue.
Tim ....Did you end-up reaming hub holes to the suggested 0.600", and using the Dorman 610-234 studs? Coop

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Old 05-17-2022, 06:55 PM   #11
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Tim ....Did you end-up reaming hub holes to the suggested 0.600", and using the Dorman 610-234 studs? Coop

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Coop,

That number rings a bell. I have it written down at home and will double check. Yes, I reamed to .600 and "pulled" them through. Worked out really well.
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Old 05-17-2022, 09:05 PM   #12
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Coop,

That number rings a bell. I have it written down at home and will double check. Yes, I reamed to .600 and "pulled" them through. Worked out really well.

Those are the studs that Boling Bros. recommend using, along with their printed procedure in quotes, BELOW. Coop


"These can also be used with original 1940-1941 Ford front and rear hubs by removing the original drum and studs, reaming the stud holes to .600, and installing Dorman 610-234 studs."





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Old 05-18-2022, 08:26 AM   #13
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Default Re: Swage Or Not To Swage?

The one additional thing that I would recommend to add to the process, is, after you've had the drums turned and shoes arced to fit, you take the drums and have them balanced.
Went through this with my 5-window. New, F-100 frt brakes and drums and new r. brakes and drums, '40 Ford. Still had quite a bit of un-balance and blamed the tires. Went through the whole wheel and tire balance, out of round, road force balance, etc. etc.
A friend suggested I have the drums balanced. I was skeptical, but did it. Took them to a roundy-round race car machine shop and had them balanced.
It was incredibal how much they had to take off to get them to balance.
Took them home, put them on, and WOW! problem solved. (Just remember to mark the drums to which wheel they go to, so you won't mess up having had your shoes arced to fit a certain drum.)
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Old 05-18-2022, 10:33 AM   #14
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Default Re: Swage Or Not To Swage?

"one additional thing" is a welcome point. That little howard is welcomed into the mix on this site, is a good sign that Ford Barn is truly open to great ideas and experiences.
To clarify, the front hubs came to me with the lugs already swaged, but the drums not attached. Film at Eleven! Fred A
P.S. I still disadvantaged by not being "unskilled" at picture posting.

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Old 05-18-2022, 12:43 PM   #15
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Default Re: Swage Or Not To Swage?

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The one additional thing that I would recommend to add to the process, is, after you've had the drums turned and shoes arced to fit, you take the drums and have them balanced.

little howard ....These drums that you had balanced...WHERE did you purchase them? Did they possibly come from "SPEEDWAY Motors"? Coop

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Old 05-18-2022, 01:02 PM   #16
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Default Re: Swage Or Not To Swage?

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"one additional thing" is a welcome point. That little howard is welcomed into the mix on this site, is a good sign that Ford Barn is truly open to great ideas and experiences.
To clarify, the front hubs came to me with the lugs already swaged, but the drums not attached. Film at Eleven! Fred A
P.S. I still disadvantaged by not being "unskilled" at picture posting.

Fred A
Fred:

Do you have OEM drums or ones like Boling Bros. sell?
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Old 05-18-2022, 03:34 PM   #17
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The fronts are "late model" replacements, bought over the counter from my local Car Quest.
The rears were the "USA" made, top Quality, out of V8 Parts catalog.
I buy very few critical parts from Speedway.
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Old 05-18-2022, 03:54 PM   #18
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Default Re: Swage Or Not To Swage?

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The fronts are "late model" replacements, bought over the counter from my local Car Quest.
The rears were the "USA" made, top Quality, out of V8 Parts catalog.
I buy very few critical parts from Speedway.
You are hereby promoted to "Big Howard".
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Old 05-18-2022, 05:14 PM   #19
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Default Re: Swage Or Not To Swage?

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The fronts are "late model" replacements, bought over the counter from my local Car Quest.
The rears were the "USA" made, top Quality, out of V8 Parts catalog.
I buy very few critical parts from Speedway.

Howard ....Let's try this from a different direction (I HAVE REALLY GOOD REASON FOR PERSUING THIS!). Can you tell us which style drum that you had to have balanced (See BELOW)? Coop




"SPEEDWAY" Drums...NO EMBOSSED Writing Around Perimeter







"BOLING BROS." Drums....EMBOSSED WORDS/LETTERS Around Perimeter






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Old 05-18-2022, 09:29 PM   #20
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They were NOT the Boling Bros. drums.
And, I really don't want to say where I got them. I do by stuff from them.
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Old 05-20-2022, 10:22 AM   #21
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Default Re: Swage Or Not To Swage?

Interesting reasoning. In the meantime we know less while Little Howard knows... You got us LH, many of us are just compulsively curious. Can not dismiss the value of checking the drum's balance drum for some builds. I have seen drums that have removed or modified counterbalance lugs. May have been for wheel fitting. Fred A
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Old 05-20-2022, 03:47 PM   #22
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Default Re: Swage Or Not To Swage?

I have a pair of Boling Brothers drums and hubs here going on my '34 pickup and they are absolutely beautiful. The fit between the hub and drums is perfect. No play at all between the studs and the drums. I was going to use some old hubs to save money, but you need to ream the holes to .600 for the Boling Brothers studs. The reamer (that I would only ever one time) was expensive, I just decide to buy the new hubs and I'm glad I did. You won't have balance problems with these since the outside has been machined; it's exactly the same thickness everywhere and perfectly concentric on the outside. I bet if you balanced them, they would already be perfect.

I like using period correct hot rod parts and I don't usually buy new stuff, but these brakes are the exception. I highly recommend Boling Brothers. Too bad everything is not made like this. That have always been really nice and quickly answered any email questions. They ship fast too; unlike one company I'm waiting on right now.

I don't think a "little" play between the studs and drum will hurt anything. Lots of cars came that way, even big air brake drums. The studs do not center the drum it's the "pilot hole" in the middle, so even if the drum shifted a little because of the stud clearance it would still remain centered. Ideally you don't want any play because of the potential to shear the bolts or wear away at them. At work we had a bunch of new F-350s that were shearing the ring gear bolts. At the factory somebody used the wrong bolts without the built-in shoulder that fit tightly the ring gear. Without that shoulder there was probably a 1/8'" of clearance on each side of the bolts. It did not take long for the ring gear to start moving back and forth and shearing the bolts. I must have done a dozen of those rear-ends. We got them in as quick as possible before the ring gear grenaded the rear end. We could have sent them in under warranty, but it took longer to drop them off and pick them up than it did to pull the rear cover and replace the bolts.
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Old 05-20-2022, 06:03 PM   #23
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Flathead Fever,

Good point about the hole in the center locating the drum. My post did not adequately state that and your point is spot on.

Tim
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Old 05-24-2022, 03:10 PM   #24
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Default Re: Swage Or Not To Swage?

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Originally Posted by Fred A View Post
"one additional thing" is a welcome point. That little howard is welcomed into the mix on this site, is a good sign that Ford Barn is truly open to great ideas and experiences.
To clarify, the front hubs came to me with the lugs already swaged, but the drums not attached. Film at Eleven! Fred A
P.S. I still disadvantaged by not being "unskilled" at picture posting.

Fred A

My apologies to Fred for being late, but here are the pics that he wanted to post. Coop





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Old 05-24-2022, 06:30 PM   #25
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My apologies to Fred for being late, but here are the pics that he wanted to post. Coop






Looking that is pict, it looks like its a '40 style front hub that has a flat spot cast in. Most have these have it, but I've also seen a few that don't. Not sure why they all don't have that flat spot cast in.

If your hub has that flat spot and the studs don't have a flat face, simply grind or file a flat and that will keep the stud from turning. No need for swedging.

Also, you have repop drums of some sort which are the slip on type.

Seems like you are good to go!

Last edited by Tim Ayers; 05-25-2022 at 06:41 AM.
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Old 05-24-2022, 09:58 PM   #26
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Looking that is pict, it looks like its a '40 style rear hub that has a flat cast in.
Also, you have repop drums of some sort which are the slip on type.
Tim (Fred too) ....You must have meant FRONT HUB, as I'm sure that YOU know the difference. Boling Brothers' REAR hub BELOW! I will say that their drums have increased in price recently. They were $135 until just a short time ago. Don't forget that Gary (Krylon32) is a dealer and offers a 10% discount.


Anyway, those "slip-on" drums that Fred has pictured are the Boling Brothers drums, also known as "MT CAR PRODUCTS" as can be seen under what looks like some sort of protective goop. Fred has some GOOD stuff there! I'd run those parts in a heartbeat. Coop

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Old 05-25-2022, 05:17 AM   #27
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Default Re: Swage Or Not To Swage?

Ah, yes. My oversight. I've been busier that a one legged man in a butt kicking contest lately, so I didn't proof read my post.

I believe both OE '40 front and rear hubs have those same flat stops cast into the back side of the hub. I have a few loose one that I'll go check when a have minute.

Thanks for the correction, DD

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Old 05-25-2022, 08:29 AM   #28
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Actually, the pictures show that the MT drums are really intended for the repop Lincoln backing plates and do not fit the grooves on the Bendix made Zephyrs. They look good on most of the currently available brakes. Take a closer look at the exposed groove that only exists where there is the outer ring of the originals. MTs are now out and whatever I had before, is back "in the groove". The hubs are new of unknown origin. Mix and no match has been haunting me lately. Formerly I have sold the Zephyr front hubs to Richard Lacy. They work with some new drums.
Thanks DD for the picture help. If I could get some shop time with my friend that sent the pictures, we could sort more of this out. Still trying to get the parking brake cable issues defeated. In my hot rod years little of this would be worthy of mention. I would be ashamed of how we abused the old Fords. Good Luck: Fred A
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