How much positive camber needed for radial tires?

[LazarusLong]

Put new 2:15x75x15 radial tires on my 51 Victoria,and am wondering if anyone knows the exact amount of positive camber in degrees that is needed.


Car drives like a dream going in a straight line,but you do NOT want to hit a 35 MPH curve running 50. You know right away that you screwed up.


I am hoping getting the front aligned correctly for radials will help with this.


BTW,this is my "new" project car. Mechanically I wouldn't be afraid to take off on a cross-country trip with it now. Still working on the cosmetics,though. Other than the top,this is the original paint on the car. Some previous owner used paint remover and painted the top without priming it because it was black,the paint was thin,and rust was bleeding through,and he was a dumbass. As a result the paint remover cracked and ate away at the caulking around the rain gutters,and where it cracked it held water. As a result I have rust holes all around the top. It is in a resto shop now to be soda blasted,all the rust cut out and removed with welds,and repainted the original black. This time with primer under it.


Just had the seats reupholstered a couple of weeks ago. Now I can see over the steering wheel while driving it,and don;t have any springs pokin me in the butt.


I will post some photos if someone will tell me how to get them down to a reasonable size.

[tubman]

I put a set of Aerostar springs and new shocks on my '51 club coupe a couple of years ago to lower the front a bit. It drove fine, but I had it aligned to factory specifications just to be sure. The car was running a set of reproduction Firestone bias ply tires at that time. A year later, I installed a set of new "Coker Classic" radials. The car still drives just fine.

Are you sure there isn't something else going on?

[LazarusLong]

Originally Posted by tubman

I put a set of Aerostar springs and new shocks on my '51 club coupe a couple of years ago to lower the front a bit. It drove fine, but I had it aligned to factory specifications just to be sure. The car was running a set of reproduction Firestone bias ply tires at that time. A year later, I installed a set of new "Coker Classic" radials. The car still drives just fine.

Are you sure there isn't something else going on?

Yes. The car goes fine in a straight line,but like I wrote in my post,hit a 35 MPH curve running 50 and it's time to panic.


Radial tires need positive camber to handle correctly,but so far I can't find anybody that can give me a specific figure. Tried a local front end shop that does a LOT of work,and the owner couldn't look me in the eye while telling me he could handle it. I suspect he was just going to grab a Motors Manual and set it to stock bias ply specs.

[tubman]

Mine is set to stock specs and it drives just fine. I hate to be indelicate, but you car seems to have had a lot more use and wear than mine. I think something else is going on.

[LazarusLong]

Originally Posted by tubman

Mine is set to stock specs and it drives just fine. I hate to be indelicate, but you car seems to have had a lot more use and wear than mine. I think something else is going on.

Well,what can I say. My car has 74k original miles on it,and everything in the front suspension is tight and it doesn't "wander" going down the road.


BTW,you are not looking at my business coupe in the avatar and thinking that is the car I am writing about,are you? The car I am writing about is a 51 Victoria.

[Lanny]

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What are you running for air pressure in the radials ?
Maybe you need a little more air in 'em...





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[tubman]

Originally Posted by LazarusLong

Well,what can I say. My car has 74k original miles on it,and everything in the front suspension is tight and it doesn't "wander" going down the road.


BTW,you are not looking at my business coupe in the avatar and thinking that is the car I am writing about,are you? The car I am writing about is a 51 Victoria.

Nope. I saw the picture of the Victoria in your original post. I guess I was "indelicate". Sorry. What we need is feedback from other members regarding running radials with the suspension aligned to factory specifications to see if that's where the problem lies. It just doesn't seem like it to me.

[V8COOPMAN]

Originally Posted by LazarusLong

Yes. The car goes fine in a straight line,but like I wrote in my post,hit a 35 MPH curve running 50 and it's time to panic.


Radial tires need positive camber to handle correctly,but so far I can't find anybody that can give me a specific figure. Tried a local front end shop that does a LOT of work,and the owner couldn't look me in the eye while telling me he could handle it. I suspect he was just going to grab a Motors Manual and set it to stock bias ply specs.

Not sure where you got the info about radials NEEDING POS camber to handle correctly. Momma's Tahoe (with radials) has a factory setting of slightly NEGATIVE camber. DD

[LazarusLong]

Originally Posted by Lanny

What are you running for air pressure in the radials ?
Maybe you need a little more air in 'em...

.

I shouldn't. They are 215x75rx15 radials pumped up to specs,and these are wider tires than the original bias tires.


Radials have a different "footprint" and need different settings than bias ply skinny tires.

[LazarusLong]

Originally Posted by V8COOPMAN

Not sure where you got the info about radials NEEDING POS camber to handle correctly. Momma's Tahoe (with radials) has a factory setting of slightly NEGATIVE camber. DD

Mama's Tahoe also has a different front suspension than stock 51 Fords.

[Lanny]

You say "pumped up to specs".
I'm Curious, just how much air pressure are you actually running in them ?






.

[JSeery]

Seems really similar to an earlier thread! https://www.fordbarn.com/forum/showthread.php?t=242611

[LazarusLong]

Originally Posted by Lanny

You say "pumped up to specs".
I'm Curious, just how much air pressure are you actually running in them ?

.

Whatever the maximum recommended air pressure is on the sides of them.

[1931flathead]

I had two 1953 ford and the both of them were set as stock specs and handled great both had p215 75 r15 on them

[tubman]

Well, here I go, being "indelicate" again. I seriously doubt that that Victoria has 74K miles. What proof do you have?. My car had 63K on it when I got it, but it came with all of the original paperwork (sales order, delivery report, invoice, battery warranty, and various other stuff, images of which I have posted on this very forum before). Plus, the guy who sold it to me was the nephew of the second owner (who had worked for the original purchasers), who confirmed all of the facts. Plus, one of my friends from my racing days grandfather was the salesman who sold the original owners the car. Unless you have information of this quality, a figure like you are quoting is highly suspect for a 67 year old car (that's about 1000 miles a year). If you can prove me wrong, I'll be the first one to congratulate you.

More important than that is the fact that Ford specified a 1000 mile interval for chassis lubrication for these cars. I would be willing to bet that for some considerable time during it's life time, your Victoria went significantly longer than that between grease jobs. I'm sorry, but I'll bet your front suspension is worn out and needs to be rebuilt. No amount of modified camber settings will solve your problems. Sorry to be the bearer of bad news.

[DocJohn]

I think that it's a fair question regardless of whether the suspension is worn or not - he'll need to set the geometry anyway.

My first thought is that you've got the pressures too high.

Originally Posted by LazarusLong

Whatever the maximum recommended air pressure is on the sides of them.

That's the maximum safe pressure set by the manufacturer. Remember too, if you set them cold then the pressure rises as the tyres heat up with use and heat soak from the brakes, so you'll be above this level....

I'd be surprised if you need to go much above mid 30s psi. I think that I'd start at 30 and adjust it from there. A good trick I learnt when racing was to put 4 short chalk marks on the shoulder of the tyres, running from the tread round onto the sidewall. Then drive as you would normally and see where the chalk marks have rubbed away. If there's still chalk on the main part of the tread, lower the pressure by 2 psi and do it again. If the marks have been rubbed away right round to the sidewall, raise the pressures. The aim is to get the full tyre tread to sit on the road at your maximum cornering force.

As far as camber is concerrned, normally radials like some negative camber (top of the tyre leaning into the wheel well), whereas crossplies (bias) prefer a little positive camber. Depending on how much adjustment you have, going to 0 or even -1 degree camber would give a noticeable improvement in front end grip with the radials.

Having said all that, the car should drive fine with factory settings and sensible tyre pressures.

[A bones]

I'll ask a silly question. Does the problem equally exist in either right and left turns?

Quote
"Yes. The car goes fine in a straight line,but like I wrote in my post,hit a 35 MPH curve running 50 and it's time to panic."Quote

More questions: How will it react at normal speed? Does the car have a rake? What is in the trunk, and what about the rear suspension?

What I'm aiming at is not camber as much as caster. It can change during the turning of the steering wheel left or right, if there is wear to bushings in control arms or A frames.

My resolution would be to scour the region for that one family, frame and alignment shop. The one that's been around forever (not one with a tire chain connected to it). Let them look it over and make a recommendation.

Apologies to all tire shop workers ( as I used to be one, but the extent of alignment work in such shops is normal routine ) The frame specialists have seen many more anomalies. Good Luck

[LazarusLong]

Originally Posted by DocJohn

I think that it's a fair question regardless of whether the suspension is worn or not - he'll need to set the geometry anyway.

My first thought is that you've got the pressures too high.

That's the maximum safe pressure set by the manufacturer. Remember too, if you set them cold then the pressure rises as the tyres heat up with use and heat soak from the brakes, so you'll be above this level....

I'd be surprised if you need to go much above mid 30s psi. I think that I'd start at 30 and adjust it from there. A good trick I learnt when racing was to put 4 short chalk marks on the shoulder of the tyres, running from the tread round onto the sidewall. Then drive as you would normally and see where the chalk marks have rubbed away. If there's still chalk on the main part of the tread, lower the pressure by 2 psi and do it again. If the marks have been rubbed away right round to the sidewall, raise the pressures. The aim is to get the full tyre tread to sit on the road at your maximum cornering force.

As far as camber is concerrned, normally radials like some negative camber (top of the tyre leaning into the wheel well), whereas crossplies (bias) prefer a little positive camber. Depending on how much adjustment you have, going to 0 or even -1 degree camber would give a noticeable improvement in front end grip with the radials.

Having said all that, the car should drive fine with factory settings and sensible tyre pressures.

Good tip about the chalk.



The car is at a resto shop now getting the top soda blasted,welded up,and painted,so I obviously can't tell you what the actual tire pressures are because I am home and the car is there. However,I usually pump car tires up to 32 psi and see how they ride and handle.



Some previous owner used paint remover to remove the old,no doubt sun-faded and thin,paint from the top,and then painted it without washing and sanding it,or even priming it. The result was it rusted under the paint,and the paint remover cracked the caulking around the rain gutters,and water got trapped in there with no where to go. The paint just rolled up in sheets. The guy I bought the car from had it for about 10 years without doing anything to it,and it sat outside the whole time. He bought it from a old car dealer that bought it from an estate sale. The gas tank had a hole in the top I could stick my hand through,and the master cylinder wasn't even there. The hoses and lines were original,so I replaced them,too. Used the new copper/nickel brake lines for both the brakes and the gas line.

[LazarusLong]

Originally Posted by A bones

I'll ask a silly question. Does the problem equally exist in either right and left turns?

Quote
"Yes. The car goes fine in a straight line,but like I wrote in my post,hit a 35 MPH curve running 50 and it's time to panic."Quote

More questions: How will it react at normal speed? Does the car have a rake? What is in the trunk, and what about the rear suspension?

What I'm aiming at is not camber as much as caster. It can change during the turning of the steering wheel left or right, if there is wear to bushings in control arms or A frames.

My resolution would be to scour the region for that one family, frame and alignment shop. The one that's been around forever (not one with a tire chain connected to it). Let them look it over and make a recommendation.

Apologies to all tire shop workers ( as I used to be one, but the extent of alignment work in such shops is normal routine ) The frame specialists have seen many more anomalies. Good Luck

I don't really know about left turns versus right turns. The only sharp curves I have driven it through start to the right and then swing to the left,but I have slowed down by the time I turn left.


You are correct about the caster. I was tired and still a little loopy from some of the drugs the docs gave me after surgery last week,and wrote camber instead of caster. Good catch!


I put the car up on a lift when I first got it,and everything in the front suspension seems to be tight. I did tighten up the steering box to eliminate a little free play in the wheel,but not much.


Also,I haven't taken it to an alignment shop yet to verify the alignment is correct. The tires on it when I bought it were bias ply whitewalls that had tread so deep they looked new,but the sidewalls were all cracked and one had an actual hole in it. Because of this I put the new radials on it before I ever drove it. I also switched to new 6 inch wide steel wheels from Summit Racing and took the original wheels off the car.

[V8COOPMAN]

Originally Posted by LazarusLong

I couldn't care less about what you believe. Don't bother to post to me anymore.

You've had several folks here-in trying to help you. Not an easy task from afar as a rule. Then, on top of that, you can't seem to remember the difference between caster and camber. Then, you want to throw-out a bunch of foul-mouthed lip service implying that WE are the idiots, all because you can't manage your meds. An attitude re-assessment would do you well on this forum. Plus, did ya ever think that trying to do 50 mph on a 35 mph curve (in a worn-out, old used car) may just be part of your problem in the first place? DD