Are brake floaters worth it?

[SteveE]

Originally Posted by freak

I didn't see the choice that way. I saw it as a choice between stock brakes with stock stopping power and modified brakes with possibly enhanced stopping power. I'm not convinced that I need more than stock stopping power.

Half joking. But I prefer the feel of the floaters (only the front basic kit installed now but upgrading to the most expensive all four brake kit from Ted). They give the braking up front a feel of even pressure of the pads against the drum and almost feels as if they are pulsating a bit like my modern brakes do. I noticed better stopping with the basic kit. Looking forward to the Teds kits on all 4.

[P_Moore]

Thanks for the info, great reading

[WHN]

Originally Posted by BRENT in 10-uh-C

There is one little issue that you are overlooking. On the floater area where the wedge pushes downward against the rollers, there is room for the floater to move laterally ....to a certain extent however the Wedge Stud still creates a positive stop (for the Wedge) where the shoes cannot rotate any further. When that happens, the wedge pushing downward no longer has any rotational advantage to provide what some are calling "self-energizing", so any mechanical/frictional advantage ceases.


Just a FWIW, my dad and several others tried something where they used an original Adjusting Wedge and used a hacksaw to cut and remove the wedge area. They just put that loose wedge inside the housing and re-installed the cap. The adjuster shaft was used to set the shoe clearance. This was done back in the 1970s, way before the FH Ted set-up. Instead of the Wedge against rollers, there was a triangle set-up that worked well however the downside is these triangle pivots would go over-center and lock the shoes against the drum if the shoes were not in proper adjustment.


The bottom line in this entire reoccurring debate is what are we/you/me trying to accomplish? Ford designed this car to appeal to Lady drivers. Many of these ladies were petite and lady-like (-not tough construction worker types) so the effort required to operate these vehicles had to be well within their capabilities. These cars were also designed to be driven 60 mph, so the original braking system had to be designed to accommodate a feminine driver's braking capability while also safely stopping from higher speeds. So have we become such 'wimps' now that we don't have the muscles in our right leg to depress the pedal on a stock braking system?

Sure, I am all about upgrades or improvements such as bonded linings or cast drums, but so often we get into the mindset that the original systems (generators, 6v electrical, updraft carbs, steering gearboxes, etc.) MUST all be upgraded if we want reliability and serviceability. From my experience around these cars, many of these things are just not needed to have properly functioning Model-As that will safely and reliably start, stop, and steer, -however it is indeed your car and your money, so make it whatever you want it to be.

This has been my view for over 60 years. As from the factory! The Model A was/is a GREAT car. Almost 100 years, that has to tell you something.

If a Model A operating system is restored back to factory spec’s, the brakes or whatever will work very well.

The only thing I would add to a well sorted out car, are directional signals.

Enjoy.

[Synchro909]

Here are a couple of devious tricks I used to improve the brakes on my Model As. Firstly, I use a cross shaft from a LHD car. On those, the brake actuating lever is located in the "dip" where the shaft goes under the gearbox. For that reason, it is longer than the one on a RHD cross shaft. By the time I slide it along the shaft to where it should be in a RHD car and bend it to fit the clevis on the rod, I have more leverage and thus, more brakes front and back.
The bigger change is making the front brakes better than the back ones. I have cast iron drums on the front only and those wedges with a floating pin fitted. The rear brakes are unmodified. Now for the big one. I take a pair of the longer actuating arms from the back, make a bush (they have a larger ID than the front ones) and bend them a little so the brake rod will fit and attach them at the front.
It is clear to me that Henry put a strong bias towards the rear brakes simply by using a longer lever on them. By the time all of those measures are combined, the balance is about right. Mine was easily the best braking car in our club at a recent test.

PS when fitting the longer arms on the front, I have to modify the return springs because the rods are higher at the front and they are no longer in the right place. Easy!

[Pete]

Many people seem to think the laws of physics don't apply to them.
There is only ONE way to make a completely stock model A stop quicker than the way it came from the factory and that is add weight to the car. Do all of your stopping tests with 5 200 lb. people in the car.
Floaters or even 6 puck disc race brakes will NOT stop it any quicker without adding weight.
Several modifications or fancy parts will however lower the pedal pressure required for a maximum effort minimum distance stop.

One important thing to remember is, if you add 1000 lb. to the car, you may want to add floaters or disc brakes to be able to push the pedal easier.

(It should be mentioned here that brake pedal modulation while enabling a quicker shorter maximum effort stop is NOT used in stock, as factory delivered brake testing)

[Synchro909]

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Originally Posted by Pete

Many people seem to think the laws of physics don't apply to them.
There is only ONE way to make a completely stock model A stop quicker than the way it came from the factory and that is add weight to the car. Do all of your stopping tests with 5 200 lb. people in the car.
Floaters or even 6 puck disc race brakes will NOT stop it any quicker without adding weight.
Several modifications or fancy parts will however lower the pedal pressure required for a maximum effort minimum distance stop.

One important thing to remember is, if you add 1000 lb. to the car, you may want to add floaters or disc brakes to be able to push the pedal easier.

(It should be mentioned here that brake pedal modulation while enabling a quicker shorter maximum effort stop is NOT used in stock, as factory delivered brake testing)

With respect, I will need convincing that that is so. The brakes slow the car car by dissipating energy. Ie, they convert kinetic energy into heat. At the same speed, the heavier the car , the greater the energy to be converted by the brakes and they can only do that at a certain rate. Double the weight, double the energy, double the energy the brakes have to dissipate - the longer it takes to dissipate it all (stop)
By improving the efficiency of the brakes with any of these changes, the stopping distance can be reduced.
Adding weight will mean a greater coefficient of friction between the tyres and the road but it will still take longer to stop especially if the tyres skid.
That's my take on it anyway.

[BRENT in 10-uh-C]

Originally Posted by Synchro909

With respect, I will need convincing that that is so. The brakes slow the car car by dissipating energy. Ie, they convert kinetic energy into heat. At the same speed, the heavier the car , the greater the energy to be converted by the brakes and they can only do that at a certain rate. Double the weight, double the energy, double the energy the brakes have to dissipate - the longer it takes to dissipate it all (stop)
By improving the efficiency of the brakes with any of these changes, the stopping distance can be reduced.
Adding weight will mean a greater coefficient of friction between the tyres and the road but it will still take longer to stop especially if the tyres skid.
That's my take on it anyway.

Both you and Pete have the same idea, and I agree with him in the fact that after I/we have properly rebuilt a set of Model-A mechanical brakes, it is easy to slide the wheel(s) just because of the clamping forces of the shoes to the drum(s). In the situation of that, we all would likely agree that if we can prevent the sliding during a panic stop, we can effectively stop the vehicle in a shorter distance. Adding weight (-within reason) is an easy and predictable way to increase the friction and prevent the skinny stock-size tires from sliding on the pavement.

Adding one more thought into this scenario, many Model-As out there have old(er) tires that have rubber that is 'harder' than Chinese Arithmetic. The friction or 'gripping power' of these tires as compared to good quality fresh tires is definitely at a disadvantage. In other words, just because a driver does not hear squealing tires during hard braking does not mean the old hard tires are not scrubbing off little balls of rubber effectively reducing grip or friction between the tire and the road surface.

[nkaminar]

I have cast iron drums and floaters on my otherwise stock mechanical brakes on my 1930 sedan. The brakes were in excellent shape before I installed the floaters. One caveat is that I replaced the levers on the front with ones used in the back. They are longer. I have backed off the rear adjusters 1/4 turn and the car stops better.

Yesterday I did a brake test at 20 mph on dry asphalt. I stopped in 17 feet where as before the stopping distance was 21 feet. The rears still skid but more braking is in the front than before. In normal driving I definitely feel the braking is better.

[5lugnuts]

My car came with cast iron drums and all original parts were replaced. I added the longer rear levers to the front with the use of bushings of the correct inside and outside diameters from a chain hardware store which I cut the length to fit the width of the levers. Now all wheels had the same mechanical advantage. To add front bias, I added floaters from the usual suppliers (Snyders) to the front.

[Pete]

Originally Posted by Synchro909

With respect, I will need convincing that that is so. The brakes slow the car car by dissipating energy. Ie, they convert kinetic energy into heat. At the same speed, the heavier the car , the greater the energy to be converted by the brakes and they can only do that at a certain rate. Double the weight, double the energy, double the energy the brakes have to dissipate - the longer it takes to dissipate it all (stop)
By improving the efficiency of the brakes with any of these changes, the stopping distance can be reduced.
Adding weight will mean a greater coefficient of friction between the tyres and the road but it will still take longer to stop especially if the tyres skid.
That's my take on it anyway.

First, the coefficient of friction does not change with a different braking system.
The only thing that changes that is a different type or composition of rubber and braking surface.

When you add weight, you add braking surface. With new tires it can be more than double.

Efficiency of the braking system only has to do with pedal pressure required to go to full lock. If you want to stop quicker, buy bigger tires or go to a rougher street.

[Gene F]

Originally Posted by Bill G

After three tries at the Flathead brand, I gave up. The instructions say that all parts need to be in tip-top shape before proceeding. That was probably my issue to begin with. I was kind of seduced by the notion that putting the kit on that my Model A brakes would magically be like a modern car brakes. My brakes actually work very well with stock and standard parts and while my brakes are all standard parts, they are pretty new with Randy Gross shoes and cast iron drums. I am pretty happy with what I have and my Flathead kit now sits on the shelf. My advice is to see what you can do with good standard parts before going that route.

"Randy Gross shoes" - ???

[Y-Blockhead]

Originally Posted by Gene F

"Randy Gross shoes" - ???

I have Randy Gross shoes also, work great.