Cluster bearing solution?

[Dino's A]

Originally Posted by Joe K

I believe that is normal. As it is with the Hyatt spring type equivalent.

Joe K

Here's another idea from the jeep guy(me) :

Borg Warner transmissions for jeeps made after the war used the
Model T-90. The T-90 used neither a bushing nor a caged bearing.

You inserted individual needle bearings on both sides. Spacer in between.
Maybe another way here?

[Joe K]

Originally Posted by Dino's A

You inserted individual needle bearings on both sides. Spacer in between.
Maybe another way here?

Another thought which I have considered is that Torrington for years made "needle bearings" in sleeves - the sleeve could be pressed into the cluster and turn on the shaft.

A Torrington sleeve bearing AND a hardened shaft sleeve is commonly used as a replacement for the nose bearing of the Model A water pump. Pix below.



From a previous discussion of this water pump bearing application, I have identified the Torrington Bearing/sleeve numbers.

Not much special really. The Torrington drawn cup needle bearing is B-1416. The sleeve I'm not coming up with the number (its not marked) but is hardened, made to fit the bearing and is available from Torrington. OD is .875 and ID is .6245 (press fit on shaft.)

Edit: Race sleeve is Torrington IR-1016 (Ref. "How to Restore Your Model A" Vol 7 Page 13)

Sizing is probably wrong, and you might not need the hardened sleeve on a hardened cluster gear shaft (see my comment above about the "glass hard" original countershaft.)

IIRC, the Torrington bearing/sleeve is available in "graduated lengths" up to about 1-1/2" in this size.

So some exploration to determine sizing might be advantageous?

Joe K

[ryanheacox]

Originally Posted by Oldcarbearings

I DON'T understand nor can fathom as to WHY DON'T ALL of the FORD parts specialist/ vendors get together/pool there resources &approach RBC (Roller Bearing Company of America) to re-tool or re-make B7118&B7121?,
Surely there's enough of them/you to make this happen?,
Here in OZ i/ can't procure/source/supply ANY USA made B7118&B7121,
I recently supplied a well known FORD parts specialist here in Victoria Australia with our last remainig stock &another 3pcs, ALL of our bearing company suppliers can ONLY supply chinese made KOBE or if they can procure/source&supply from overseas our costs are between $103-108 AUD EACH!!!!! for both B7118&B7121 SIGH !!!!!.

I just started at RBC before Thanksgiving. Unfortunately, I think pricing would be many times more than any of us would pay if they'd even look at a job as small as antique car transmission bearings. I have been meaning to ask my boss about it though.

[Bob Bidonde]

What is the evidence that the cluster gear roller bearings are failing?

[Tom Endy]

Originally Posted by Bob Bidonde

What is the evidence that the cluster gear roller bearings are failing?

See the attached article.


https://www.santaanitaas.org/wp-cont...ings-rev-Z.pdf

Tom Endy

[Dino's A]

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I just was given a transmission & bellhousing from a family that has passed away.

Now I can dissemble the unit and try to engineer something. I'm still favoring the bronze bushing idea. Why? because I know it's a stable way to go.

Joe K- THe needle bearings I was referring to are not like your photos. The needle bearings that were used in the T-90 transmissions were just needles. You inserted them in, one by one. Watched my brother do this a few times. There probably was a spacer
in between the loose needles. The T-90 was used in every post war jeep for years. Many of us even bolted them up to Chevy V8's.

I can use some help here folks....If the right quality ones are being made now, there is no use to carry on any further. Can anyone share info on that?
Thanks,
Dino Falabrino
Santa Anita Model A's

[JKY]

Originally Posted by Ordsgt

The roller bearings that are good have a shaft that runs through each roller and engages into the cage at each end. The inferior ones were made with a small nub on the end of each roller which fit into a recess in the cage. My understanding is that these had a very high failure rate. When I rebuilt my transmission it was hit or miss on getting good roller bearings so I ordered from different suppliers and used only the good ones. Considering what is involved with removing a transmission I used NO Chinese bearings roller or main. It is not worth the trouble should they fail

I bought some of the bad bearings before I knew about them and put them in a type 39 tranny. 300 miles later I pulled the tranny and put the better ones in. The bad bearings were still in tact, but they definitely are not up to speed when compared to the better bearings. Too much work to take a chance for me.

[rotorwrench]

Ford eventually stopped using the Hyatt roller bearings with the 259 series Borg Warner designs. The Hyatt B-7118 and B-7121 were used from the model B years clear up into the 1950s on certain transmission types so there used to be a lot of NOS parts out there but they are depleting and eventually only good used ones will be out there. These were replacements for the model A parts. The way Hyatt bearings were made was what made them a quality part. Reproductions are not made the same way and some won't last at all.

When looking for the best possible bearings, I'd check with Mac at VanPelt Sales. He tries to get the best possible replacement parts.

[RDVAARK]

Originally Posted by ryanheacox

I just started at RBC before Thanksgiving. Unfortunately, I think pricing would be many times more than any of us would pay if they'd even look at a job as small as antique car transmission bearings. I have been meaning to ask my boss about it though.

Ryan, Good luck. About 50 posts that detail this saga date 12/22/22, for your reading pleasure. I believe I approached your boss, and he gave me a lot of valuable info. The pricing was a real barrier, for me.

If needles are used uncaged, their diameter would be 1/2 times (the bore size) less (the shaft size). They would then have to sit perfectly parallel side by side in the cylinder shaped cavity, not allowing them to 'cant' and travel sort of sideways around the shaft. This is a 'word picture' of what I tried to figure out. I don't think the sizes of the shaft/ bore would allow this. Side play at this diameter would allow canting or tight rubbing, by my confused calculations, perhaps you could give a better take?
Russ

[rotorwrench]

The later transmissions used loose roller bearings in concert with thrust washers and a spacer tube. They work very well. THE 8A-7118/7121 are loose rollers used first in the 1949 Ford cars. I've never measured the components to see how different they are from the 1948 and earlier car transmission countershaft parts.

[Miles in MN]

According to Van Pelt's book the cluster gears used with loose rollers have a smaller ID than the earlier versions that use the caged roller bearings.

[bobbader]

This conversation has gone on for many years and the statements of bearing failures go back that far. (Note the date of the original post of this thread.) Somewhere along the way in this ongoing discussion, I believe Don Snyder posted that they had taken steps to rectify the problem that seems to have been suggested as possibly more widespread than possible reality. I'm not suggesting the bearings in question were well made. They weren't, but a very reputable, nationally known supplier said they took steps to remedy the poor quality.

I wonder if anyone who has condemned the original "bad bearings" has verified (or not) the quality upgrade suggested by Mr. Snyder.

[bobbader]

I believe that somewhere along the way in this multiyear discussion Don Snyder suggested that his company had remedied the scenario of the poorly manufactured bearings. Wonder if anyone who had researched, inspected, and rightfully warned us of the quality issues of the former bearings has looked into whether Snyder's new stock is better? Because, if the new bearings are better, perhaps we could/should start a new conversation here.

[Rob Doe]

bobbader, I agree with your comments regarding: the bearing issue may no longer exist if the correct new ones are purchased.

I just installed all new transmission components from Snyder's. I was aware of your comments that Snyder's had taken steps to correct the problem with the bearings they are selling.

The 3 roller bearings that I installed looked exactly like the bearings I removed, construction wise. The old bearings had run 17,540 miles in the last 28 months, and who knows how long before we acquired the car. The transmission worked fine but had second gear howl. I have read Tom Endy's article, which shows the different construction of the 'quick fail' bearings.

It will be a few weeks yet before the car is back on the road. By next summer, we will have driven the car a few thousand miles. If the bearings fail, I'll come back and post the results. It is my current belief that the issue is moot.

[Oldcarbearings]

The problem is NO ONE is getting them made in the O.E.M./ORIGINAL HYATT style, i.e. with the spiral grooves not even BOWER or RBC were making them with these spiral grooves even the new copies (chinese inc Mac's &Synders) have them......

[rotorwrench]

The Hyatt types were spiral wound metal in the form of a tube. The outer cages contain the bearing roller with heavy dimples so they can't come out. The later aftermarket ones made from tubing and held into the cages with dimples were the worst. The tubes broke up easily. The others are machined rollers with small diameter ends that fit into holes in the cages but they have had some problems as well. There are also solid rollers that have a shallow bore cut into each end to fit dimples in the cages. The Hyatt design was the best design so far. They could break too but they tended to outlast the modern designs since they were a form of spring steel.

This link has info on these types of bearings.
https://www.fordbarn.com/forum/showthread.php?t=277033

[big deuce]

Originally Posted by dennis lumbert

I would drag a sharp file across the edge of the end cages ,if the file does not remove any metal but bounces over them they may be hardened enough to hold up in service.If the file removes metal I wouldn’t use them because the rollers will wear out the end cage holes and come apart from my experiance.I had this happen with a repo drive shaft bearing. .

What hardness of files are used for these tests? The test file of Rockwell hardness of 65 would probably mark most of the cages, correct? What is the Rockwell hardness of the cages supposed to be? I have some vintage bearings, Bower, another that says "made in usa" that I can mark with machinist file, but do not know the Rockwell of the file being used...

[Steve Schmauch]

I would like to comment on Nakimar's thread, and the way Sammy Guthrie installs the cluster gear. I have assembled/disassembled many transmissions also. It is difficult to align the cluster gear while installing the cluster gear shaft. Sammy's way of vertical install helps with the alignment, which means the shaft does not bind on the end(s) of the bearings. If you find that you must use a small hammer to "tap" the shaft through, then it is likely that you have distorted the cage end of a bearing, leading to early failure.

I use two cluster shafts; insert one from each end a few inches to hold the cluster in perfect alignment. Insert (by hand) the shaft being used, from the front of the transmission, not the rear. The shaft should fit tight with a slip-fit resistance. If you feel any resistance, then you are bumping up against a bearing end.

With the scarcity of good quality bearings, it is worthwhile to take this precaution to install the cluster shaft properly so the bearings are not damaged.