Go Back   The Ford Barn > General Discussion > Early V8 (1932-53)

Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 04-30-2014, 07:19 AM   #1
Tom Mazz/CT
Junior Member
 
Tom Mazz/CT's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Wethersfield, CT
Posts: 22
Default Will a Starter Heatshield Help?

My 59AB engine is slower to crank when hot. I have heavy battery cables, new battery (6 volt), generator is working fine, timing is set properly, water temp is good. It appears that the engine is just harder to turn when hot. I have heard that some have used a heatshield around the starter to prevent heat soaking from the exhaust . Thought I would give it a try. Does anyone know where to get one - or is this something I should make from scratch?

I am open to ideas on the tight motor!

Thanks
Tom Mazz/CT is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-30-2014, 07:32 AM   #2
alan
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: UPSTATESC
Posts: 669
Default Re: Will a Starter Heatshield Help?

do you have aftermarket headers? if so that could be the problem-wrap the headers ,if not try making a heat shield
alan is offline   Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)
Old 04-30-2014, 08:13 AM   #3
4dFord/SC
Senior Member
 
4dFord/SC's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Columbia, SC
Posts: 1,579
Default Re: Will a Starter Heatshield Help?

Are your ground and cable connections shiny clean? Just a thought.
4dFord/SC is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-30-2014, 09:20 AM   #4
Tom Mazz/CT
Junior Member
 
Tom Mazz/CT's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Wethersfield, CT
Posts: 22
Default Re: Will a Starter Heatshield Help?

I have stock exhaust manifolds that are about 3" from the starter and my exhaust is fabricated from stock pipes that runs parallel to the starter with about about 1 1/4" clearance. All electrical connections are clean.
Tom Mazz/CT is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-30-2014, 09:34 AM   #5
V12Bill
Senior Member
 
V12Bill's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Mt. Holly,NJ
Posts: 1,822
Default Re: Will a Starter Heatshield Help?

I once made a heat shield for a Lincoln stater motor using a pair of tool clamps and a piece of sheet metal. I used tool clamps that are used to hang tools on the wall of your shop or garage that were for a tool with a 2" handle. The sheet metal was bolted to the clamp and the finished heat shield was clamped to the exhaust where it could be removed for shows and judging.
Heat shield didn't work though, the problem was a bad coil that I sent to Skip Haney and then the problem was solved.
V12Bill is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-30-2014, 09:35 AM   #6
19Fordy
Senior Member
 
19Fordy's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Coral Springs FL
Posts: 10,872
Default Re: Will a Starter Heatshield Help?

Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)
Tom, Sounds like you need new brushes and bushings in your starter. Rebuild it and you will be a happy camper once again.
19Fordy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-30-2014, 09:36 AM   #7
Vic Piano
Senior Member
 
Vic Piano's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Odessa, FL
Posts: 7,611
Default Re: Will a Starter Heatshield Help?

How about the coil? Have you tested it? The symptoms you describe point to the coil from my experience. I run Red's Headers on Most of our Flatheads and stock exhaust manifolds on our '39 LZ. I don't think I've ever had a starter crank slower because it was "warm"... I'd check the coil before anything else.
__________________
Imagination is more important than knowledge.
Vic Piano is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-30-2014, 09:51 AM   #8
blucar
Senior Member
 
blucar's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Ventura, CA
Posts: 2,464
Default Re: Will a Starter Heatshield Help?

I have driven my '36 in the blazing summer heat of southern Nevada (Las Vegas) and southern California.. Never had a problem with a slow cranking engine if the battery and all of the connections were good.
I would suspect that you have a serious problem with you stater.. Bad brushes, bushings, etc., which is causing high voltage drain, etc.
I would suggest that you take the starter to a good re-builder, have them go through it as needed..
Here in Ventura were very lucky, we have an excellent electrical shop that rebuilds starters, generators, alternators, etc.
__________________
Bill.... 36 5 win cpe
blucar is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-30-2014, 10:18 AM   #9
expavr
Senior Member
 
expavr's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Hansville, WA
Posts: 776
Default Re: Will a Starter Heatshield Help?

If it turns out that none of the above recommendations solve the problem, go to a Hot Rod supplier (JEGS,Summit,etc) and buy a sock to put on your starter. I had to use one on the starter in my RV to cure that problem.
http://www.summitracing.com/search?S...arter%20shield
expavr is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-30-2014, 10:35 AM   #10
FL&WVMIKE
Senior Member
 
FL&WVMIKE's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Daytona Beach, Fl & Spencer, W. Va,
Posts: 4,442
Default Re: Will a Starter Heatshield Help?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vic Piano View Post
How about the coil? Have you tested it? The symptoms you describe point to the coil from my experience. I run Red's Headers on Most of our Flatheads and stock exhaust manifolds on our '39 LZ. I don't think I've ever had a starter crank slower because it was "warm"... I'd check the coil before anything else.
VIC ...............
Would a bad coil, cause it to "crank" slower ? It will "crank" with no coil at all.
MIKE (mikeburch)
FL&WVMIKE is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-30-2014, 10:48 AM   #11
AnthonyG
Senior Member
 
AnthonyG's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2013
Location: Pa.
Posts: 2,161
Default Re: Will a Starter Heatshield Help?

Hi Tom Mazz/CT, your experiencing whats call heat soak syndrome. How old is your starter? As 19Fordy indicates it's prevalent when your starter is older and needs rebuilding or a new starter. Also as blucar indicates I haven't seen heat from the engine or headers as a problem causing slow turning except with tired starters. Rebuild it or get a new one. If your not concerned with totally stock I believe I've seen hi-torque starters available which are less prone to heat. ( although I don't think the heat is the problem )
Good luck
__________________
Nomad
AnthonyG is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-30-2014, 11:20 AM   #12
Charlie Stephens
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Southern California
Posts: 7,017
Default Re: Will a Starter Heatshield Help?

How many flatheads have you seen with heat shields? I would look for the problem somewhere else as it will probably only get worse.

Charlie Stephens
Charlie Stephens is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-30-2014, 11:55 AM   #13
Steves46
Senior Member
 
Steves46's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Lithia, FL
Posts: 1,050
Default Re: Will a Starter Heatshield Help?

Sounds like a tired starter.
__________________
If it aint broke, don't fix it!
Steves46 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-30-2014, 12:01 PM   #14
Vic Piano
Senior Member
 
Vic Piano's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Odessa, FL
Posts: 7,611
Default Re: Will a Starter Heatshield Help?

Quote:
Originally Posted by FL&WVMIKE View Post
VIC ...............
Would a bad coil, cause it to "crank" slower ? It will "crank" with no coil at all.
MIKE (mikeburch)
Mike, as I understood his post, the slow cranking, when hot, was not enough to fire the engine... That to me, is coil related... I've had hot or cold slow cranking Flatheads fire up just fine as long as the coil was good.
__________________
Imagination is more important than knowledge.
Vic Piano is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-30-2014, 01:07 PM   #15
dude
Senior Member
 
dude's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Kansas
Posts: 334
Default Re: Will a Starter Heatshield Help?

Have to agree with the others, Don't think your problem is the headers. I'd look at the starter itself , look at the cables while you have them off..
__________________
[QUO[/QUOTE]no matter where you are,or where you're at, there you are...
dude is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-30-2014, 03:49 PM   #16
1937pickup
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 586
Default Re: Will a Starter Heatshield Help?

Experienced this problem on a GM muscle car with headers. Put a Ford starter switch on it and modified the starter and the problem went away. A long story short-when the starter and solenoid get hot they take more voltage. This is why I believe it is a starter that needs re-building like others have said.
1937pickup is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-30-2014, 05:52 PM   #17
41ford1
Senior Member
 
41ford1's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: ManchVegas, New Hampshah
Posts: 1,589
Default Re: Will a Starter Heatshield Help?

Quote:
Originally Posted by 19Fordy View Post
Tom, Sounds like you need new brushes and bushings in your starter. Rebuild it and you will be a happy camper once again.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vic Piano View Post
How about the coil? Have you tested it? The symptoms you describe point to the coil from my experience. I run Red's Headers on Most of our Flatheads and stock exhaust manifolds on our '39 LZ. I don't think I've ever had a starter crank slower because it was "warm"... I'd check the coil before anything else.
Quote:
Originally Posted by blucar View Post
I have driven my '36 in the blazing summer heat of southern Nevada (Las Vegas) and southern California.. Never had a problem with a slow cranking engine if the battery and all of the connections were good.
I would suspect that you have a serious problem with you stater.. Bad brushes, bushings, etc., which is causing high voltage drain, etc.
I would suggest that you take the starter to a good re-builder, have them go through it as needed..
Here in Ventura were very lucky, we have an excellent electrical shop that rebuilds starters, generators, alternators, etc.
If the bushings are worn on a starter the armature will drag on the field windings when warm. I've experienced this on Ford, GM and one Cat diesel. If all the connections are clean & tight and the solenoid is good. Rebuild or replace the starter. If there is a decent auto electrical shop in your area have them check the starter current at hot and cold. Both readings should be close. If the hot current is higher you have found the problem.
__________________
You are never to old to enjoy your childhood.

Forty1fordpickup on the HAMB.
41ford1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-01-2014, 11:45 AM   #18
blucar
Senior Member
 
blucar's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Ventura, CA
Posts: 2,464
Default Re: Will a Starter Heatshield Help?

On the '30 model Fords that had the stater switch located on the floor between the brake and clutch, it was quite common to have engine cranking problems due to the added wiring and a switch that was in poor condition.
I was a very common practice in the late '40's, early '50's to remove the stock floor mounted switch in favor of a "button" switch on the dash, the only function was to ground the cowl mounted solenoid..
__________________
Bill.... 36 5 win cpe
blucar is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-02-2014, 10:52 AM   #19
Tom Mazz/CT
Junior Member
 
Tom Mazz/CT's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Wethersfield, CT
Posts: 22
Default Re: Will a Starter Heatshield Help - update

First off - Thanks everyone for the input. This is what I did yesterday.

Pulled the starter to re-inspect. Brushes and springs had been previously replaced and looked good. Bushing in end cap had been replaced and shows no signs of wear. I did not put the other bearing - but no side to side movement noted at all. I cleaned all of the contact hardware and cable end. I did remove some paint at the starter mounting area to make sure the case was properly grounded to the block (block is clean as well). Reinstalled and the cold engine cranks fine. Started the motor and drove it for about 20 minutes to reach running temp of about 175-180.

Shut down engine and restarted it OK (cranked slow but fired quickly). Then shutdown engine.

Measured starter temp at about 110 deg f. (not bad).

Let engine heat soak for about 5 minutes and water temp went up to about 195. Starter was about 105 deg. With ignition on the engine would barely turn over and sometime start up. With ignition off the engine would hardly turnover.

I measured the torque required to turn the crank when engine was at 185 deg. I found it took 48 lb ft to turn the engine. This morning with the engine cool it took 28.5 lb ft. of torque to turn the crank.

The engine has about 100 miles on it since it was re-assembled. Wondering if anyone has an opinion on the "heat soaking" vs "tightness" of the engine?


Tom
Tom Mazz/CT is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-02-2014, 02:52 PM   #20
41ford1
Senior Member
 
41ford1's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: ManchVegas, New Hampshah
Posts: 1,589
Default Re: Will a Starter Heatshield Help?

New info. A fresh engine problem. What are the piston and bearing clearances? What weight oil are you running? If its not making any strange noises when running I'd be tempted to run it in to about 500 miles. If it doesn't free up when hot then look deeper. I'd also change the oil at 500 miles.
__________________
You are never to old to enjoy your childhood.

Forty1fordpickup on the HAMB.
41ford1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-02-2014, 07:57 PM   #21
Tom Mazz/CT
Junior Member
 
Tom Mazz/CT's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Wethersfield, CT
Posts: 22
Default Re: Will a Starter Heatshield Help?

I feel confident that the starter is in good shape - The engine when hot takes more current than when cold -- I re-read the last post from Vic Piano and he says that he hasn't seen a slow cranking motor ( hot or cold) not fire if the coil was OK.......Today I measured the voltage to the coil (a modern day 6 volt coil mounted on the intake). I had 4.5 volts going to the coil after passing through the under dash ballast resistor. When cranking the hot engine the coil voltage dropped to around 3 volts and I had little or no spark to the plugs.

For now I have by passed the resistor and have the full battery voltage going to the coil. This evening when starting a hot 200 degree engine and although it will barely turn over she will fire right up!

41Ford: The engine history: It was so called "overhauled" in the early 60's installed in the car fired up and driven around the farm for a few laps. The car sat in a barn until 2005. I pulled the engine down and although the cylinder bores had some light rust everything looked good. We cleaned the block up. honed the cylinders re lapped the valve seats - replaced a few that had rusted. Polished the crank - resurfaced the heads and deck areas. The guy that did the machine work checked the piston to bore sizes and I reassembled it. I don't know what the piston / bore clearance was.

I am running 30 weight oil.

Maybe I'll lighten up on the oil and put some miles on it as you suggested.

Thanks all.


Tom
Tom Mazz/CT is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-02-2014, 08:23 PM   #22
AnthonyG
Senior Member
 
AnthonyG's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2013
Location: Pa.
Posts: 2,161
Default Re: Will a Starter Heatshield Help?

Doesn't seem related but when things are hot and at the're most expanded due to heat the torque requirement to turn over will increase. This normally won' cause your slow turn issue unless you have a conductivity issue. You won't notice when cold as everything is at it's most contracted state and will turn easy as you have proven with your torque test, minimal ground will suffice.When hot the old fords always have grounding issues. I know you've cleaned locally but take it all the way back to your basic grounds. First rule you cannot have too many grounds. Check & clean from battery to chassis, same from fire wall to engine. I found a ground on one of my transmission mount hardware. They want a good grounds.
__________________
Nomad
AnthonyG is offline   Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)
Old 05-02-2014, 09:20 PM   #23
41ford1
Senior Member
 
41ford1's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: ManchVegas, New Hampshah
Posts: 1,589
Default Re: Will a Starter Heatshield Help?

30 weight oil should do. As Tony suggests double check the grounds. There is a possibility the solenoid is going bad. It will take two people to test it. Hook up one end of jumper cable to the starter motor terminal. Attempt to start the car and have the second person touch the other end of the jumper the the BAT side of the solenoid. If the starter speeds up you have located the problem.
__________________
You are never to old to enjoy your childhood.

Forty1fordpickup on the HAMB.
41ford1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-02-2014, 09:39 PM   #24
blucar
Senior Member
 
blucar's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Ventura, CA
Posts: 2,464
Default Re: Will a Starter Heatshield Help?

Back in "the day" when it was common to overhaul and engine, utilizing limited machine work experience/facitities, i.e. seat of the pants shade tree fitment, it was very common for the overhauled engine to be very hard starting when the engine was well warmed up.
An overhauled engine was generally ran for 500 miles using a light weight break-in oil at speeds not to exceed 35-40 mph. The break-in oil was then drained and refilled with 30w oil. This whole procedure was repeated when the engine had 1,000/1,500 miles, with the maximum speed limited to 45-50 mph..
I would submit that the problem herein is actually and engine that is set up a little tight. The problem will resolve it's self in a few miles.
In 1954 my wife to be had a '46 Studebaker Champ that blew a rod.. I pulled the engine, had it rebuilt by a local shop. I re-installed the engine, it ran great, however, after the engine warmed up it would not crank over.. Let the car sit for an hour or so, it would start right up.. My girl fried needed the car to get to work. It would start right up in the morning and in the evening at the end of the work day.. If she stopped on her way home from work the car would not start under it's own power..
After several weeks of being stranded my girl friend was at her wits end.. I finally traded cars with her. I drove the Stude to work for weeks, it slowly got better. We resorted to taking the car for long weekend drives.. By the time the engine had close to 4,000 miles, it would start right up hot or cold..
The problem here-in could be one of those.. If it ain't broke, don't fix it deals..
__________________
Bill.... 36 5 win cpe
blucar is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-02-2014, 09:59 PM   #25
AnthonyG
Senior Member
 
AnthonyG's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2013
Location: Pa.
Posts: 2,161
Default Re: Will a Starter Heatshield Help?

Great story blucar, thanks for sharing and definitely a possibility.
__________________
Nomad
AnthonyG is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-03-2014, 02:53 AM   #26
RKS.PA
Senior Member
 
RKS.PA's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Marana, AZ
Posts: 1,192
Default Re: Will a Starter Heatshield Help?

Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)
I'm with 41ford1 on the fresh engine issue. Experienced the same thing on my rebuilt 59AB until I got through the break-in period. Actually had to park on a hill after warm up to ensure it would start again. Also, I'd describe shut down when warm as "stopping in a heap", meaning it shut down quickly when the ignition was turned off vs. now when I'd describe the shut down as "normal". I went through the "replace the starter" routine to no avail.

Drive it at normal speeds. Try to avoid too much stop and go during the break-in period. Change the oil at 500K, and I'm betting your starter issue will be history!

Dick.
RKS.PA is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-03-2014, 02:58 AM   #27
RKS.PA
Senior Member
 
RKS.PA's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Marana, AZ
Posts: 1,192
Default Re: Will a Starter Heatshield Help?

Oops!! Meant to say "change the oil at 500 miles"....at 500 K you will have rebuilt that engine several more times!!!

Dick.
RKS.PA is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-03-2014, 04:16 AM   #28
35ragtop
Senior Member
 
35ragtop's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Gold Coast , Australia
Posts: 249
Default Re: Will a Starter Heatshield Help?

Hi Tom,
I have experienced the same symptoms on my 35 recently. I found that the starter switch was faulty. I replaced it with an nos one and my starter 6 v flys along now. Check it out it may be a cheap fix. IMO
Dave h
35ragtop is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-03-2014, 11:15 AM   #29
blucar
Senior Member
 
blucar's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Ventura, CA
Posts: 2,464
Default Re: Will a Starter Heatshield Help?

A foot note about fixing my girl friends engine..
As it turned out, I not only fixed her car, I found she needed chassis work, so I fixed her "wagon"... Five kids later and 58 years she is still putting up with me and my '36 Ford, which I bought three years prior to the two of us getting together...
__________________
Bill.... 36 5 win cpe
blucar is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-03-2014, 08:51 PM   #30
RKS.PA
Senior Member
 
RKS.PA's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Marana, AZ
Posts: 1,192
Default Re: Will a Starter Heatshield Help?

Blucar, I also love your story and the fact you've kept your Ford for 63 years....and even better that your wife still supports your hobby. My wife was the catalyst in getting our '39!!!

Didn't mean to steal your thread, Tom, so drive that car up and down the Silas Dean Hwy. there in Weathersfield CT and get those break in miles behind you!!!!!

Dick.
RKS.PA is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 07:23 AM.