The Ford Barn

bige386 · 04-04-2012, 05:17 PM

Its happened to me twice now. Once last summer and once today. I went over to the shop today after work to take the 46 for a drive and when I hit the starter button all I got was a CLICK CLICK. I had to lift the car up and pull the starter out which was stuck and didn't want to come out. After using a screw driver and a hammer to get the starter out I gave it a quick inspection and it seemed to be all there and the two bolts on the bendix where tight. The inner edge of the gear looked a little scarred up but not bad. Put it back together and it fired right up. Has anyone else had this problem and is there a fix for it to prevent it from happening again. Maybe a better style bendix ( Modern Style ) ?
Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

c-gor · 04-04-2012, 06:00 PM

I had the same trouble and found that the shaft was bent. Not much but enough to lock up the starter. I attributed it to tha fact that when I bought the engine (with starter) prior to rebuilding the engine that the bracket that supports the end of the starter was missing. This bracket fastens to the starter via one long starter bolt and to the engine block vis an oil pan bolt.

Took the starter to a rebuilder, shaft was straigntened and problem dissappeared.

Lawson Cox · 04-04-2012, 06:03 PM

If the starter hangs up again, you can put it in gear (I usually use third) then get behind it and push it hard, while in gear. Rock it back and forth, you will eventually hear a loud pop, when the starter gear releases. Start it up and hit the road.

bige386 · 04-04-2012, 06:49 PM

The starter in my car has always had the tail bracket that is secured by the oil pan bolt but that's not to say the starter shaft isn't tweaked a little. I also tried rocking the car back and forth with no luck. Last summer when this happened I had a guy tow me and dumped the clutch a couple times and it broke loose. I didn't like doing that tho.
I see Mac's has a modern Bendix for $25.50. Does anyone have any experience with one on these ?
Thanks again

Karl Wolf · 04-04-2012, 06:57 PM

I was on a bit of a hill the only time mine locked up... I didn't feel confident about the in gear method... I took the starter apart in place (took the barrel off) and used a large channel locks to twist the armature, worked well...
Karl

Old Henry · 04-04-2012, 07:18 PM

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It's most likely the brushes worn out. Carry a hammer along and next time it happens reach under and give the starter a few taps with the hammer. If it's the brushes that will probably jar them enough to contact the commuter and start. I had to do that for a while on two cars until I got brushes in to replace. Ran fine after that.

jerry grayson · 04-04-2012, 07:25 PM

Very likely the flywheel ring gear is the problem.

TomO · 04-04-2012, 07:27 PM

The after market Bendix drives being sold are inferior to the original Bendix used by Ford. You may have one of those in your car or your starter shaft may be bent. The scarred gears could also be your problem.

DICK SPADARO · 04-04-2012, 07:53 PM

Simple most common cure is to put the car in 2nd gear, make sure the ignition switch in the off position and rock the car rearward to reverse turn the flywheel thus disengaging the stuck bendix. If the bendix looks good usually there is a burr on the starter ring gear, nipped tooth or just old worn ring gear.

bige386 · 04-04-2012, 08:28 PM

I am 100% sure it isnt the brushes because the starter has new brushes in it. And I'm about 90% sure the bendix is an original and not an after market. I'm leaning toward the gear because I did see that the gear was scarred but I didn't think it was that bad but I guess any scarring is a bad thing. Ill have to go on the hunt and find me another bendix with a clean gear on it. The one Mac's offers are foreign made so Ill pass there.
Thanks guys for all of the imput.

George/Maine · 04-05-2012, 06:20 AM

The click click could be the starter bolt maybe stripped or not clean and tight.If it spins and can hear it maybe bendix is stuck at end.

TomT/Williamsburg · 04-05-2012, 07:59 AM

Many of us, when we stop, leave the car in gear, never taking it out of gear. This would give enough force to put the starter in a "bad" position, especially if there are some worn spots on the flywheel.

On my long run to the DFlorida Fordbarn event my starter jammed in my driveway as we were about to leave. Had to remove it to get it to break free. We installed another starter and it jammed once at a gas station but we were able to get it to free up. Here's what I found that I was doing.

When I stop my car I was leaving it in gear, possibly jamming the starter. Before stopping I took it out of gear first, stopped, set the brake, then put it in gear (for added safety). I think you may find that the problem will all but disappear. It did for me (but I did go through 2 more starters before I realized my error - duh!!!)

jack orchard · 04-05-2012, 08:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TomT/Williamsburg

Many of us, when we stop, leave the car in gear, never taking it out of gear. This would give enough force to put the starter in a "bad" position, especially if there are some worn spots on the flywheel.

On my long run to the DFlorida Fordbarn event my starter jammed in my driveway as we were about to leave. Had to remove it to get it to break free. We installed another starter and it jammed once at a gas station but we were able to get it to free up. Here's what I found that I was doing.

When I stop my car I was leaving it in gear, possibly jamming the starter. Before stopping I took it out of gear first, stopped, set the brake, then put it in gear (for added safety). I think you may find that the problem will all but disappear. It did for me (but I did go through 2 more starters before I realized my error - duh!!!)

i don't undersavvy: once the engine is running, doesn't the starter drive retract the drive gear so nothing is in contact with the flywheel ring gear? how could parking the car with it in gear have any way of changing this? when you start, dont you press the clutch pedal first? if you dont' mind, clue me in. thanks...jack

sonny · 04-05-2012, 08:37 AM

Jack, I wondered the same thing.

jack orchard · 04-05-2012, 10:07 AM

one other thought: a slightly misaligned starter plate (bent?) that causes the drive teeth to mesh with the flywheel teeth too deeply. a mesh pattern could be checked w/grease similar to the way rear end gear mesh is checked. anyone have other thoughts?...jack

Graeme / New Zealand · 04-05-2012, 03:19 PM

I had a problem with my starter after the car had been sitting ages, when I hit the button the motor just spun and the bendix would not engage. My auto electrician told me to pull the cap off the bell housing end which I did and squirt some CRC/WD40 in which I did. It worked. I know this is slightly off this topic but thought I would share this tip while we are on the subject of starters.

GB

bige386 · 04-06-2012, 07:26 AM

GB.... I had the same problem on my 29 Model A. It happened a lot in the winter months also. The starter would just spin. I ended up using some 3n1 oil on it and it never did it again. But unfortunately this wasn't the case on the 46. The gears where stuck together.

TomT/Williamsburg · 04-06-2012, 07:30 AM

Well, maybe it was just dumb luck on my part but not shutting the car off before taking it out of gear seemed to amplify the problem. This is, as I was rolling to a stop I shut the engine off with it in gear still. Once I pulled it out of gear, then stopped, then shut it off the problem went away (or shall we say, did not happen). Maybe it was dumb luck/coincidence but there were ALOT of starts and stops on that trip (1800 miles), I can tell you that.

don's 37 · 04-06-2012, 02:47 PM

This happened to me with my '37 Ford late last summer. The issue with mine was the small gear at the end of the starter. It was super sloppy on the spiral shaft. I bought a nice used bendix on ebay and problem over. Take a look at this gear. It may be your issue. If so, find a NOS bendix or a nice used one. The new bendix's on the market now are junk!

bige386 · 04-06-2012, 08:51 PM

Thanks Don. That's my thought also. I just need to go on the hunt and find me a good used or new old stock Bendex.

G.M. · 04-06-2012, 09:50 PM

Several weeks ago I tried to start my 39 P/U and it wouldn't turn over. It had been sitting 2 years. I checked the oil, no water. Removed the radiator cap and it still had slight pressure in it after 2 years and was filled up to the neck so I was sure no water got in it. Put it in gear and rocked it and it didn't turn at all. Thinking stuck valves I sprayed a pint of MMO in the cylinders and down the carb and over the next 2 weeks kept rocking it every few days, still no movement. Pushed it in on the lift yesterday and tried to remove the starter. Got the cable off and the through bolts out and it wouldn't come off and NO bad brushes wouldn't cause this problem. It just wouldn't run or have very little power if the brushes were bad. I tried to turn the engine with a power bar and deep socket on the crankshaft nut. It tightened about 1/8 th turn on the thread and it wouldn't rock 1 thousanths in either direction. I got a brass punch and big hammer and tried to break the aluminum spacer on the back loose but no go. Drove a thin carbon scraper in between the aluminum ring and the metal ring on the pan. still stuck. Drove a couple screw drivers in at about 10 and 8 o'clock with enough gap from the scraper at 9 o'clock and still won't come loose. Drove 2 large screw drivers in as close to the top and bottom as I could get them and pried on them and it poped out. The end hex bolt with the extended end that go's in to the shaft was 2 hexes on the lock washer loose and was a little loose on the shaft. Turned the power bar on the crankshaft and was as loose as a goose. Turned it over with the started to blow out the MMO but non came out it all must have soaked down in the rings good. I had put rags over the plug holes so the MMO wouldn't blow all over the place but non came out. If I didn't put the rags on I probly would have had a mess. Sprayed some starter fluid down the carb and it lite right off. Ran a little hesitant when the pedal was pushed and figured the the old gas sitting in 115 degrees over 2 summers wasn't to good. Added 5 gallons of high octane fuel and it improved 50%. May have to clean the carb. I may drive it a little first. This truck has a shrowd and 6 blade industrial fan I adapted the generator and blows a strong air pattern back past the carb and fuel pump. I want to see how the pump heat looks on this one. This is the one that ran at a fast idle for over 2 hours on a 100 degree day in 2004 and never got to 180. I never noticed any fuel problem but it was probly before this new gas. Gas gauge not working so I will pull that out tomorrow and clean it or replace the float. G.M.

Bob G/Spanaway · 04-06-2012, 11:08 PM

These old Fords have had this quirk for probably 90 years.
I have a couple Ts that do it once in a while.
I know I've been messing with 'em for 55 years.
You just put it in high gear with the key off and rock it back and forth.
It'll break loose...no big deal.
Same thing as the exhaust popping when going down a hill.
It's just part of the aura of these old cars!

bige386 · 04-07-2012, 07:45 AM

I had the same problem trying to get the starter out as you did. That little bugger just did want to come out. It took two large screw drivers and a hammer to get it out.

Thats kinda what I figured Bob. Ya play with these old cars you gotta work on these old problems. It just go's with the program. LOL

Rich Overton · 04-07-2012, 07:30 PM

It could be any or all of what all the guys are suggesting. It's all excellent advise. That's why I enjoy this site. Even if I didn't have an old Ford (Mercury) I'd check this out every night. I love all the information our colleagues have. In addition, while your at it, check out the bushings. If there is any or enough wear, the shaft will "cock" and the gears will lock up. Eventually with enough wear, the starter will burn up because the armature will contact the fields and short out. You probably already know this but Sometimes we forget to check the simple things. OMO.

Rich O.

04-04-2012, 05:17 PM	#1
bige386 Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Posts: 264	Starter Lock up Its happened to me twice now. Once last summer and once today. I went over to the shop today after work to take the 46 for a drive and when I hit the starter button all I got was a CLICK CLICK. I had to lift the car up and pull the starter out which was stuck and didn't want to come out. After using a screw driver and a hammer to get the starter out I gave it a quick inspection and it seemed to be all there and the two bolts on the bendix where tight. The inner edge of the gear looked a little scarred up but not bad. Put it back together and it fired right up. Has anyone else had this problem and is there a fix for it to prevent it from happening again. Maybe a better style bendix ( Modern Style ) ? Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

04-04-2012, 06:00 PM	#2
c-gor Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Ohio Posts: 40	Re: Starter Lock up I had the same trouble and found that the shaft was bent. Not much but enough to lock up the starter. I attributed it to tha fact that when I bought the engine (with starter) prior to rebuilding the engine that the bracket that supports the end of the starter was missing. This bracket fastens to the starter via one long starter bolt and to the engine block vis an oil pan bolt. Took the starter to a rebuilder, shaft was straigntened and problem dissappeared.

04-04-2012, 06:03 PM	#3
Lawson Cox Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Above the gnat line in Georgia Posts: 7,009	Re: Starter Lock up If the starter hangs up again, you can put it in gear (I usually use third) then get behind it and push it hard, while in gear. Rock it back and forth, you will eventually hear a loud pop, when the starter gear releases. Start it up and hit the road.

04-04-2012, 06:49 PM	#4
bige386 Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Posts: 264	Re: Starter Lock up The starter in my car has always had the tail bracket that is secured by the oil pan bolt but that's not to say the starter shaft isn't tweaked a little. I also tried rocking the car back and forth with no luck. Last summer when this happened I had a guy tow me and dumped the clutch a couple times and it broke loose. I didn't like doing that tho. I see Mac's has a modern Bendix for $25.50. Does anyone have any experience with one on these ? Thanks again

04-04-2012, 06:57 PM	#5
Karl Wolf Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Mill Valley,Ca. Posts: 1,509	Re: Starter Lock up I was on a bit of a hill the only time mine locked up... I didn't feel confident about the in gear method... I took the starter apart in place (took the barrel off) and used a large channel locks to twist the armature, worked well... Karl Last edited by Karl Wolf; 04-05-2012 at 11:13 AM.

04-04-2012, 07:18 PM	#6
Old Henry Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2010 Location: Orem, Utah Posts: 5,762	Re: Starter Lock up Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements) It's most likely the brushes worn out. Carry a hammer along and next time it happens reach under and give the starter a few taps with the hammer. If it's the brushes that will probably jar them enough to contact the commuter and start. I had to do that for a while on two cars until I got brushes in to replace. Ran fine after that. __________________ Prof. Henry (The Roaming Gnome) "It is good to have an end to journey toward; but it is the journey that matters, in the end.” *Ursula K. Le Guin in The Left Hand of Darkness

04-04-2012, 07:25 PM	#7
jerry grayson Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Atlanta area Posts: 833	Re: Starter Lock up Very likely the flywheel ring gear is the problem.

04-04-2012, 07:27 PM	#8
TomO Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Posts: 362	Re: Starter Lock up The after market Bendix drives being sold are inferior to the original Bendix used by Ford. You may have one of those in your car or your starter shaft may be bent. The scarred gears could also be your problem. __________________ TomO

04-04-2012, 07:53 PM	#9
DICK SPADARO Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Altamont, NY Posts: 1,004	Re: Starter Lock up Simple most common cure is to put the car in 2nd gear, make sure the ignition switch in the off position and rock the car rearward to reverse turn the flywheel thus disengaging the stuck bendix. If the bendix looks good usually there is a burr on the starter ring gear, nipped tooth or just old worn ring gear. __________________ dickspadaro.com

04-04-2012, 08:28 PM	#10
bige386 Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Posts: 264	Re: Starter Lock up I am 100% sure it isnt the brushes because the starter has new brushes in it. And I'm about 90% sure the bendix is an original and not an after market. I'm leaning toward the gear because I did see that the gear was scarred but I didn't think it was that bad but I guess any scarring is a bad thing. Ill have to go on the hunt and find me another bendix with a clean gear on it. The one Mac's offers are foreign made so Ill pass there. Thanks guys for all of the imput.

04-05-2012, 06:20 AM	#11
George/Maine Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Mid coast Maine Posts: 1,878	Re: Starter Lock up The click click could be the starter bolt maybe stripped or not clean and tight.If it spins and can hear it maybe bendix is stuck at end.

04-05-2012, 07:59 AM	#12
TomT/Williamsburg Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Williamsburg, Virginia Posts: 2,656	Re: Starter Lock up Many of us, when we stop, leave the car in gear, never taking it out of gear. This would give enough force to put the starter in a "bad" position, especially if there are some worn spots on the flywheel. On my long run to the DFlorida Fordbarn event my starter jammed in my driveway as we were about to leave. Had to remove it to get it to break free. We installed another starter and it jammed once at a gas station but we were able to get it to free up. Here's what I found that I was doing. When I stop my car I was leaving it in gear, possibly jamming the starter. Before stopping I took it out of gear first, stopped, set the brake, then put it in gear (for added safety). I think you may find that the problem will all but disappear. It did for me (but I did go through 2 more starters before I realized my error - duh!!!)

04-05-2012, 08:37 AM	#14
sonny Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2010 Location: Mantua, Ohio Posts: 269	Re: Starter Lock up Jack, I wondered the same thing.

04-05-2012, 10:07 AM	#15
jack orchard Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2011 Location: summerfield florida Posts: 383	Re: Starter Lock up one other thought: a slightly misaligned starter plate (bent?) that causes the drive teeth to mesh with the flywheel teeth too deeply. a mesh pattern could be checked w/grease similar to the way rear end gear mesh is checked. anyone have other thoughts?...jack __________________ Proud FNG We fixem cars. Heap Good! Last edited by jack orchard; 04-05-2012 at 10:10 AM. Reason: learning to spell

04-05-2012, 03:19 PM	#16
Graeme / New Zealand Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Lower Hutt , New Zealand Posts: 2,127	Re: Starter Lock up I had a problem with my starter after the car had been sitting ages, when I hit the button the motor just spun and the bendix would not engage. My auto electrician told me to pull the cap off the bell housing end which I did and squirt some CRC/WD40 in which I did. It worked. I know this is slightly off this topic but thought I would share this tip while we are on the subject of starters. GB __________________ "you can't make honey out of dog sh*t" "You're a long time looking at the lid"

04-06-2012, 07:26 AM	#17
bige386 Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Posts: 264	Re: Starter Lock up GB.... I had the same problem on my 29 Model A. It happened a lot in the winter months also. The starter would just spin. I ended up using some 3n1 oil on it and it never did it again. But unfortunately this wasn't the case on the 46. The gears where stuck together.

04-06-2012, 07:30 AM	#18
TomT/Williamsburg Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Williamsburg, Virginia Posts: 2,656	Re: Starter Lock up Well, maybe it was just dumb luck on my part but not shutting the car off before taking it out of gear seemed to amplify the problem. This is, as I was rolling to a stop I shut the engine off with it in gear still. Once I pulled it out of gear, then stopped, then shut it off the problem went away (or shall we say, did not happen). Maybe it was dumb luck/coincidence but there were ALOT of starts and stops on that trip (1800 miles), I can tell you that.

04-06-2012, 02:47 PM	#19
don's 37 Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Palmyra, NY Posts: 195	Re: Starter Lock up This happened to me with my '37 Ford late last summer. The issue with mine was the small gear at the end of the starter. It was super sloppy on the spiral shaft. I bought a nice used bendix on ebay and problem over. Take a look at this gear. It may be your issue. If so, find a NOS bendix or a nice used one. The new bendix's on the market now are junk!

04-06-2012, 08:51 PM	#20
bige386 Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Posts: 264	Re: Starter Lock up Thanks Don. That's my thought also. I just need to go on the hunt and find me a good used or new old stock Bendex.

04-06-2012, 09:50 PM	#21
G.M. Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Florida and Penna. Posts: 4,471	Re: Starter Lock up Several weeks ago I tried to start my 39 P/U and it wouldn't turn over. It had been sitting 2 years. I checked the oil, no water. Removed the radiator cap and it still had slight pressure in it after 2 years and was filled up to the neck so I was sure no water got in it. Put it in gear and rocked it and it didn't turn at all. Thinking stuck valves I sprayed a pint of MMO in the cylinders and down the carb and over the next 2 weeks kept rocking it every few days, still no movement. Pushed it in on the lift yesterday and tried to remove the starter. Got the cable off and the through bolts out and it wouldn't come off and NO bad brushes wouldn't cause this problem. It just wouldn't run or have very little power if the brushes were bad. I tried to turn the engine with a power bar and deep socket on the crankshaft nut. It tightened about 1/8 th turn on the thread and it wouldn't rock 1 thousanths in either direction. I got a brass punch and big hammer and tried to break the aluminum spacer on the back loose but no go. Drove a thin carbon scraper in between the aluminum ring and the metal ring on the pan. still stuck. Drove a couple screw drivers in at about 10 and 8 o'clock with enough gap from the scraper at 9 o'clock and still won't come loose. Drove 2 large screw drivers in as close to the top and bottom as I could get them and pried on them and it poped out. The end hex bolt with the extended end that go's in to the shaft was 2 hexes on the lock washer loose and was a little loose on the shaft. Turned the power bar on the crankshaft and was as loose as a goose. Turned it over with the started to blow out the MMO but non came out it all must have soaked down in the rings good. I had put rags over the plug holes so the MMO wouldn't blow all over the place but non came out. If I didn't put the rags on I probly would have had a mess. Sprayed some starter fluid down the carb and it lite right off. Ran a little hesitant when the pedal was pushed and figured the the old gas sitting in 115 degrees over 2 summers wasn't to good. Added 5 gallons of high octane fuel and it improved 50%. May have to clean the carb. I may drive it a little first. This truck has a shrowd and 6 blade industrial fan I adapted the generator and blows a strong air pattern back past the carb and fuel pump. I want to see how the pump heat looks on this one. This is the one that ran at a fast idle for over 2 hours on a 100 degree day in 2004 and never got to 180. I never noticed any fuel problem but it was probly before this new gas. Gas gauge not working so I will pull that out tomorrow and clean it or replace the float. G.M. __________________ www.fordcollector.com Last edited by G.M.; 04-07-2012 at 08:12 AM.

04-06-2012, 11:08 PM	#22
Bob G/Spanaway Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2011 Location: Spanaway, Washington Posts: 344	Re: Starter Lock up These old Fords have had this quirk for probably 90 years. I have a couple Ts that do it once in a while. I know I've been messing with 'em for 55 years. You just put it in high gear with the key off and rock it back and forth. It'll break loose...no big deal. Same thing as the exhaust popping when going down a hill. It's just part of the aura of these old cars!

04-07-2012, 07:45 AM	#23
bige386 Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Posts: 264	Re: Starter Lock up I had the same problem trying to get the starter out as you did. That little bugger just did want to come out. It took two large screw drivers and a hammer to get it out. Thats kinda what I figured Bob. Ya play with these old cars you gotta work on these old problems. It just go's with the program. LOL

04-07-2012, 07:30 PM	#24
Rich Overton Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Posts: 135	Re: Starter Lock up It could be any or all of what all the guys are suggesting. It's all excellent advise. That's why I enjoy this site. Even if I didn't have an old Ford (Mercury) I'd check this out every night. I love all the information our colleagues have. In addition, while your at it, check out the bushings. If there is any or enough wear, the shaft will "cock" and the gears will lock up. Eventually with enough wear, the starter will burn up because the armature will contact the fields and short out. You probably already know this but Sometimes we forget to check the simple things. OMO. Rich O.