Go Back   The Ford Barn > General Discussion > Model A (1928-31)

Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 04-02-2011, 03:49 PM   #1
Benson
Senior Member
 
Benson's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Snork Key
Posts: 2,088
Default When do refineries stop making "winter" gas?

When do the refineries stop making "winter" gas and switch to summer gas?

Is there a cutoff date or do they keep selling the winter gas until they feel that the auto repair businesses have made enough money trying get cars running right?
Benson is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-02-2011, 03:55 PM   #2
1931 flamingo
Senior Member
 
1931 flamingo's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: new britain,ct 06052
Posts: 8,701
Default Re: When do refineries stop making "winter" gas?

I believe we're 10% ethanol all year round.
Paul in CT
1931 flamingo is offline   Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)
Old 04-02-2011, 04:14 PM   #3
mrtexas
Senior Member
 
mrtexas's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Sugar Land, TX
Posts: 4,277
Default Re: When do refineries stop making "winter" gas?

I'll act like this is a serious question rather than bait to attack oil companies.

Generally in the spring. It depends where you live. Spring is earlier in the Southwest than it is in New York. There are cutoff dates and a transition. The only difference is the amount of n-butane blended. Summer grade has little to none these days and winter grade 5+%. Winter grade has more so that your car works in 0F weather, like 15psi in the winter and 7psi in the summer. The other spec is the T V/L=20. This is the temperature where the vapor/liquid ratio of the sample is 20. Winter grade is somewhere around 105F and summer grade is like 140F. Intermediate grades are well somewhere in the middle. The 50% distilled point stays the same with a maximum of around 250F.

One thing the EPA couldn't legislate is the laws of nature. It takes a more volatile gasoline with more butane to vaporize in the intake manifold in cold weather.

Last edited by mrtexas; 04-02-2011 at 04:33 PM.
mrtexas is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-02-2011, 06:04 PM   #4
FL&WVMIKE
Senior Member
 
FL&WVMIKE's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Daytona Beach, Fl & Spencer, W. Va,
Posts: 4,425
Default Re: When do refineries stop making "winter" gas?

Mr. Texas ...............
If you are defending the oil companies, please explain how this fuss in Lybia, from where we get only 2% of our oil, causes this much price increase.
Thanks,
MIKE
FL&WVMIKE is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-02-2011, 06:29 PM   #5
Benson
Senior Member
 
Benson's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Snork Key
Posts: 2,088
Default Re: When do refineries stop making "winter" gas?

MR-T,

It is a serious question ... was not intended to stir up anything. The date of change over seems to be a secret as I found nothing with several internet searches I tried.

Maybe I just have not found the right combination of words yet.


Quote:
Originally Posted by mrtexas View Post
I'll act like this is a serious question rather than bait to attack oil companies.

Generally in the spring. It depends where you live. Spring is earlier in the Southwest than it is in New York. There are cutoff dates and a transition. The only difference is the amount of n-butane blended. Summer grade has little to none these days and winter grade 5+%. Winter grade has more so that your car works in 0F weather, like 15psi in the winter and 7psi in the summer. The other spec is the T V/L=20. This is the temperature where the vapor/liquid ratio of the sample is 20. Winter grade is somewhere around 105F and summer grade is like 140F. Intermediate grades are well somewhere in the middle. The 50% distilled point stays the same with a maximum of around 250F.

One thing the EPA couldn't legislate is the laws of nature. It takes a more volatile gasoline with more butane to vaporize in the intake manifold in cold weather.
Benson is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-02-2011, 10:16 PM   #6
mrtexas
Senior Member
 
mrtexas's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Sugar Land, TX
Posts: 4,277
Default Re: When do refineries stop making "winter" gas?

Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)
The EPA says summer grade is May 1.

"The Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) today proposed an action
that will make it easier for tank terminals to make the transition from
winter to summer grade reformulated gasoline (RFG). This action will
require tank terminals to accept only summer grade RFG beginning
April 15 of each year. The EPA is also proposing to simplify existing
regulations to improve refiners’ flexibility to sell gasoline blendstocks.
Currently, there is no date by which terminals must begin receiving
summer grade RFG. However, tanks at terminals must contain only
summer grade RFG by May 1. As a result, terminal operators typically
draw down their levels of winter grade gasoline as May 1 approaches,
causing an abrupt reduction in inventories of gasoline and higher gas
prices. Today’s proposal would essentially increase the amount of time
terminals have to make the changeover from winter to summer grade
RFG."

Here is another post I found:

"the mandated Winter/Summer RFG switchover dates are Oct. 15 and May 1 with the blending beginning about a month before so the refiners tanks and than the gas stations tanks can meet the deadline with a given percentage. "

Last edited by mrtexas; 04-02-2011 at 10:31 PM.
mrtexas is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-02-2011, 10:24 PM   #7
mrtexas
Senior Member
 
mrtexas's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Sugar Land, TX
Posts: 4,277
Default Re: When do refineries stop making "winter" gas?

Quote:
Originally Posted by FL&WVMIKE View Post
Mr. Texas ...............
If you are defending the oil companies, please explain how this fuss in Lybia, from where we get only 2% of our oil, causes this much price increase.
Thanks,
MIKE
Panic/uncertainty in the crude oil markets. The oil companies don't set the price of gasoline, supply and demand does. In the fall of 2008 the the deep of the financial panic, the market price for gasoline fell to $1.50 per gallon. Oil company were forced to sell at that price to keep their tanks from overflowing as they couldn't reduce production fast enough, more supply than demand.

For example you have a Model A and you'd like to get $100,000 for it. The only bid you get from a seller is $15,000. If you want to sell it's for $15,000. Market demand/supply sets the price in all transactions in a free marketplace, Model As or gasoline.
mrtexas is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-02-2011, 11:15 PM   #8
MrTube
Senior Member
 
MrTube's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: New Jersey
Posts: 1,471
Default Re: When do refineries stop making "winter" gas?

Quote:
Originally Posted by mrtexas View Post
Panic/uncertainty in the crude oil markets. The oil companies don't set the price of gasoline, supply and demand does. In the fall of 2008 the the deep of the financial panic, the market price for gasoline fell to $1.50 per gallon. Oil company were forced to sell at that price to keep their tanks from overflowing as they couldn't reduce production fast enough, more supply than demand.

For example you have a Model A and you'd like to get $100,000 for it. The only bid you get from a seller is $15,000. If you want to sell it's for $15,000. Market demand/supply sets the price in all transactions in a free marketplace, Model As or gasoline.

I don't know if I agree with that 100%. Most of the world does not depend on Model A's to live whether its gasoline, diesel, heating oil, jet fuel, LP gas, plastics and so on.

What exactly stops Oil companies from naming their price?
MrTube is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-02-2011, 11:34 PM   #9
Benson
Senior Member
 
Benson's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Snork Key
Posts: 2,088
Default Re: When do refineries stop making "winter" gas?

Thanks for info ... I am hoping to avoid the usual vapor locking that happens every year about this time and getting rid of winter gas seems to help.

Seems that the last few years that it is worse.


Quote:
Originally Posted by mrtexas View Post
The EPA says summer grade is May 1.

"The Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) today proposed an action
that will make it easier for tank terminals to make the transition from
winter to summer grade reformulated gasoline (RFG). This action will
require tank terminals to accept only summer grade RFG beginning
April 15 of each year. The EPA is also proposing to simplify existing
regulations to improve refiners’ flexibility to sell gasoline blendstocks.
Currently, there is no date by which terminals must begin receiving
summer grade RFG. However, tanks at terminals must contain only
summer grade RFG by May 1. As a result, terminal operators typically
draw down their levels of winter grade gasoline as May 1 approaches,
causing an abrupt reduction in inventories of gasoline and higher gas
prices. Today’s proposal would essentially increase the amount of time
terminals have to make the changeover from winter to summer grade
RFG."

Here is another post I found:

"the mandated Winter/Summer RFG switchover dates are Oct. 15 and May 1 with the blending beginning about a month before so the refiners tanks and than the gas stations tanks can meet the deadline with a given percentage. "
Benson is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-03-2011, 09:36 AM   #10
MrTube
Senior Member
 
MrTube's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: New Jersey
Posts: 1,471
Default Re: When do refineries stop making "winter" gas?

"The best cure for high oil prices is----high oil prices. "

What does that mean, the high price will cure the problem on its own because people cut back?
MrTube is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-03-2011, 06:03 PM   #11
Old182
Senior Member
 
Old182's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Newburgh, NY
Posts: 222
Default Re: When do refineries stop making "winter" gas?

Benson, you will find the information you're looking for at www.ASTM.org. This is the American Society for Testing and Materials and is responsible for writing and maintaining the specification for gasoline in the U.S. It also rides herd over diesel, jet, and aviation gasoline as well as other fuels. The spec you want is ASTM D 4814, Standard Specification for Automotive Spark-Ignition Engine Fuel, and can be found in Volume 05.02 of the Pertroleum Products and Lubricants manual. There are tables that indicate when and where the volatility (vapor pressure and distillation) changes and also the T20 V/L. MrTexas has it right about the numbers; the tables set the parameters above on a monthly basis although certain areas don't change much (if at all) from month to month. ASTM will charge you for the spec if you're not a member; PM me with your area and I can give you the numbers you need.
Old182 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-10-2011, 12:56 PM   #12
Old182
Senior Member
 
Old182's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Newburgh, NY
Posts: 222
Default Re: When do refineries stop making "winter" gas?

Benson as noted in PM, here are the 3 scans of the volatility requirements in ASTM D 4814. Tables 1 and 3 are used to identify the volatility specified in Table 4 for each month and region. Keep in mind that high vapor pressure = increased vaporization (good in winter, bad in summer)and high T20 V/L = best vapor lock protection. Contact me with questions/comments.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg D4814RVPdistTable1.jpg (94.5 KB, 4 views)
File Type: jpg D4814VolVLTable2n3.jpg (103.3 KB, 1 views)
File Type: jpg D4814SeasRegTbl4.jpg (89.8 KB, 5 views)
Old182 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-10-2011, 02:42 PM   #13
mrtexas
Senior Member
 
mrtexas's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Sugar Land, TX
Posts: 4,277
Default Re: When do refineries stop making "winter" gas?

[QUOTE=Jeff/Illinois;186537]
Quote:
Originally Posted by mrtexas View Post
Panic/uncertainty in the crude oil markets. The oil companies don't set the price of gasoline, supply and demand does. In the fall of 2008 the the deep of the financial panic, the market price for gasoline fell to $1.50 per gallon. Oil company were forced to sell at that price to keep their tanks from overflowing as they couldn't reduce production fast enough, more supply than demand.


.....and there is one more thing, that is the most important today that sets the price of crude oil. SPECULATION. Has nothing directly to do with the old S&D theory. If you can't get any return on CD's at the bank and the stock market looks too iffy, you bet your $$ on commodities. It's the same old story,,,I've got cash how can I get more. Fortunes are made and lost, usually lost. You've got to get in early and break fast before the drop. People lost their shirts before trying to do this with farm commodities. Eggs come to mind. I know a man that lost an entire farm he had given to him, been in the family over 100 years, trying to beat the egg market. He got greedy now he drives a truck cross-country living in a sleeper cab. That happened about 20 years ago.

The best cure for high oil prices is----high oil prices.

In the mean time, buy restored Model A Fords at least you can have fun with your money. There are some pretty good buys floating around. Even muscle cars are coming down but they are still way too high in price they haven't seen the bottom yet.
I'd say a bigger thing is fear and panic. When people/companies are scared/panic it creates shortages. Refineries around the world are driving up the short term demand and price of crude oil in fear that there will be a short term shortage without the Libyan crude oil. There really isn't much spare capacity to produce crude anymore even in Saudi Arabia. China has taken up all the spare capacity we once had since they have become the biggest auto market in the world now. Remember the last time crude was driven to $140/barrel? Shortly thereafter the price crashed to $30.

Did you know that if everyone in the USA filled their car with gas on the same day that it would drain dry every gas station tank in the country? It would take several days then to refill the gas station tanks. Then tomorrow you couldn't get gas for any price!

If you don't believe in supply/demand setting prices how about the domestic natural gas market being flooded with supply? Natural gas is selling for the equivalent of $25 oil ($/MBtu X 6.25)! There is no capacity to liquify it and export it for much higher prices overseas. The oil companies sure wouldn't sell it for such a cheap price if the supply wasn't so high. The same forces are at work depressing the price of domestic crude by $10/barrel. There is no spare pipeline capacity to get the stuff from where it is produced to the Gulf Coast refineries. WTI(West Texas Intermdiate) is selling for $10 a barrel less than North Sea Brent, a very unusual price spread.

How about the big dumb company I retired from ExxonMobil! They just completed a liquified natural gas IMPORT terminal 50 miles from where I live near Beaumont, TX. It is now a big fat white elephant now as imports of natural gas are not required when there is such a domestic surplus of the stuff!

Last edited by mrtexas; 04-10-2011 at 02:51 PM.
mrtexas is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-10-2011, 06:14 PM   #14
Jim/GA
Senior Member
 
Jim/GA's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Young Harris, GA
Posts: 1,611
Default Re: When do refineries stop making "winter" gas?

can we talk about old cars now?
__________________
Jim Cannon
"Have a Model A day!"
  • Repair
  • Restore
  • Drive
  • Enjoy!
  • Join MAFCA
http://tinyurl.com/Join-MAFCA
Jim/GA is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-10-2011, 06:16 PM   #15
Old182
Senior Member
 
Old182's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Newburgh, NY
Posts: 222
Default Re: When do refineries stop making "winter" gas?

MrTexas, I believe most of what you say is true, but Exxon may be hedging on the belief that after Japan, nuclear will be dead for years and natural gas will come into its own since our leadership hates coal. Unlike MY big dumb company (Texaco; actually a great company with 2 really really bad CEOs in a row), I don't bet against Exxon very often, if at all - still have many friends there.
Old182 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-10-2011, 07:18 PM   #16
FL&WVMIKE
Senior Member
 
FL&WVMIKE's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Daytona Beach, Fl & Spencer, W. Va,
Posts: 4,425
Default Re: When do refineries stop making "winter" gas?

mrtexas .....................
About this talk of "supply and demand". There has not been one word said about any oil shortage ! The supply has remained the same and the demand has remained the same, yet, we are all paying an extra $.50 a gallon. Something is wrong with this system. To top it off, Lybia only provides 2% (TWO PERCENT) of all our oil !
What if we started using out own oil, instead relying on the volital Mid-East countries ? Those countries thrive on turmoil. Always have - always will.
MIKE
FL&WVMIKE is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-10-2011, 10:32 PM   #17
jerry of whidbey
Senior Member
 
jerry of whidbey's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: clinton wa
Posts: 104
Default Re: When do refineries stop making "winter" gas?

we get the same crap gas year round in Clinton Wa
jerry of whidbey is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-11-2011, 10:23 AM   #18
Uncle Bob
Senior Member
 
Uncle Bob's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Salado, TX.
Posts: 719
Default Re: When do refineries stop making "winter" gas?

Our friend Mr. Texas has done a pretty good job of enumerating some of the causal factors, though mostly dealing in the "supply/demand" aspects (though touching lightly on the fear factor). Given his background he knows how to look for factors other than what the majority of people in our society are influenced by. Most of you get your perspectives/info from some "major media" outlet. Sorry, unless you dig deeper, mix in some financial industry news, and then think about it more than in a passing fashion none of this will make sense. True, doing that isn't in line with most folks normal, day to day processing, so it's understandable why it doesn't prevail.

To expand on the "fear factor", that's what commodity trading is there for. To react to fear (react, not cause). Again, media influences have taught us to loathe otherwise reasonable institutions. McDonalds is evil because "it forces people to be fat" (slight exaggeration for effect). Oil companies are evil because they sometimes make profits. Speculators are evil because they "make prices go up". Of course when they "make prices go down" they're no longer evil so they are then known as "futures traders" or commodity traders/brokers. We're encouraged to avoid politics, so I'll just ask you to imagine on your own who these media types are flacking for.

To look at today's petroleum pricing only through the supply/demand eye is to miss the point, or more accurately, see through a pin hole. The world wide value of the dollar has even more impact on the price of crude since the world, so far, uses the US dollar as the pricing standard. If the value of the dollar goes down, say 20%, the price of any commodity will have to go up 20% in dollar denomination just to stay even in buying power for the producer, no supply/demand change. If world market demand (either now or expected in the near future) is dropped on top of that the prices go even higher.

If the term QE2 (not the old ocean liner) is meaningless to you then what's happening in the pricing of all commodities will seem a mystery. QE2 is Federal Reserve Bank shorthand for Quantitative Easing, second time around (in very recent history). Sort of an innocuous term that? What are they easing the quantity of? Money! In other words, they're printing more of it, devaluing the underlying real value of each bill already in circulation. That's why all commodities; gold, silver, aluminum, copper, and on and on, are going higher in price. The producers around the world understand that our central bank is purposely lowering the value of our currency, and they respond rationally to that lower value by changing prices. They can do that because all commodities exist in a world market and in some parts of the world demand is growing. Again, I need to be mindful of avoiding politics, but there are reasons why we're not recovering commensurately.

Economics is a complex "science", even highly trained economists don't/can't agree (though again, I suspect politics colors some of their thinking). But sometimes we forget to use history as a teacher. On another thread someone opined that if "the government" lowered the speed limit again it would reduce the demand, thus reducing the price. Must be a young fella who wasn't around in the '70s when that was actually tried and didn't have that result. I know, it's those "evil oil companies" that are to blame. Even those those evil guys somehow screwed up and "let" the prices drop when government controls were dropped in the early '80s....................oh, but that can't be, can it?

As for the notion that "Lybia only supplies 2% of the worlds crude....". The futures (meaningful word) traders aren't just looking at Lybia. The entire middle east is in turmoil, with Saudi Arabia smack dab in the middle of a number of revolting nations, an could be next.............they supply 10%.........that has just a bit more meaning.

Mr. Texas, you probably shouldn't be too hard on your prior employer for the LNG plant thing. I'm sure you recall that as soon as 10 years ago the market predictions for the US natural gas supply were pretty dim. Government reluctance to allow new drilling, and exploration, particularly on public lands, put an artificial cap on supply (yeah, and we're constantly told it's the oil companies that are evil). Hydraulic fracturing technologies have blossomed in the past few years that have led to near quantum leaps of renewed production in existing fields, as well as Gulf of Mexico stikes that have yielded incredibly high productivity. My guess is Exx/Mob started permitting that plant more than a decade ago when domestic supplies looked bleak. Sort of like the next nuclear plant scheduled to go online here in the US started planning/permitting in 1973! The E/M folks just got caught in the evolving technologie/government interference vortex. Might be one of the reasons that corporations like E/M need to make the kind of profits they sometimes can make in order to do for us what we want them to. Hmmmmmmm.
__________________
Luck occurs when preparation and opportunity converge.
Uncle Bob is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-11-2011, 11:13 AM   #19
FL&WVMIKE
Senior Member
 
FL&WVMIKE's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Daytona Beach, Fl & Spencer, W. Va,
Posts: 4,425
Default Re: When do refineries stop making "winter" gas?

Uncle Bob ..............
I am aware of the Future Traders. As far as I am concerned, they are the problem, or their system is anyway.
This small handful of people, who are getting very rich on these price increases, are running up the price, although there is no actual shortage. Lets change the system and let a true "supply & demand" situation, determine the price.
Plus, we have to get independent from foriegn oil !
MIKE
FL&WVMIKE is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-11-2011, 12:52 PM   #20
Mitch Bunkin in PA
Senior Member
 
Mitch Bunkin in PA's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Pipersville,Bucks County,PA
Posts: 142
Default Re: When do refineries stop making "winter" gas?

This may seem weird, but how about a law requiring all speculators to have actual physical facilities to store & transport the oil they "buy?" Also a law requiring them to receive delivery of what they "buy" before they can resell. Comments?
__________________
WEBSITE=http://faculty.bucks.edu/bunkinm/

"Most people ONLY want to know
what they already believe and
nothing more."
Mitch Bunkin in PA is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 04:20 AM.