The Ford Barn

Brobrian · 12-22-2014, 10:11 PM

Thanks to those who advised me on honing or reaming my king pin bushings.
I'd hoped to stretch the job out for a few more days, but the work was too fun, and the weather too good.

Today I reassembled the steering box, reinstalled the steering column, and put the spindle assembly back together. I'm still going to replace the bushings in the right spindle, but I thought I'd just put it all back together until the reamer I'm borrowing from a generous Barner in Virginia arrives.

So, I took the coupe out for a little spin this evening. The steering is much easier, and tight as a drum. Absolutely no play, and smooth as silk. I was chuckling all the way down the street. Then, the front end started to wobble gently and continued throughout the short test ride. I'd checked the toe-in while the front end was up on blocks and found it to be very close to zero. When I got back I checked it again, with the car sitting on it's wheels and found it to be about 3/4" toe-in. I'll adjust it again tomorrow and see if I can get it right. Even when I get the toe-in adjusted properly, the tires are so improperly worn from having been aligned badly that I may not be able to get rid of the wobble until they are replaced.

Anyway, the point of the post was to say thanks, and to share how much fun it is to tinker around with these cars. With every assembly I take apart, repair, and reassemble, the car becomes more dear to me. I don't care that I didn't completely fix the front end. I've had a couple of great days in my garage and learned a bunch. Can't wait to tinker with the alignment again, and to do the other spindle.

Bob C · 12-22-2014, 10:18 PM

Marco has some good information on setting toe.
http://www.abarnyard.com/workshop/align.htm

Bob

tbirdtbird · 12-22-2014, 10:24 PM

switch the fronts for the rears and test drive again once toe is set

Brobrian · 12-22-2014, 11:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tbirdtbird

switch the fronts for the rears and test drive again once toe is set

Thanks, did that before the test drive. But the tires are still a bit worn since the rears were fronts on and off again over the past years.

Mike V. Florida · 12-22-2014, 11:36 PM

There are many more parts that, if worn, can cause a wobble. ANY junction that has a ball joint should be checked. The ball ends MUST be round the cups MUST not be worn, the springs MUST be of the correct length.

I'll let others post the cheats that will cover up for worn parts.

Mitch//pa · 12-23-2014, 07:33 AM

Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)

just had a very bad death wobble on Ethans A, it had a little slop at the pitman arm to drag link so a tightening of the bolt fixed it plus it took out about 2" of play by doing that. i then set the toe on a computerized rack to specs...
death wobble gone

Marshall V. Daut · 12-23-2014, 08:58 AM

Over the years, I think I have found worn king pin bushings to be the cause of shimmying only a couple times - and they were REALLY worn! More often than not, some previous well-intentioned owner installed that worthless rubber ball front wishbone mount modification. If the car doesn't shimmy instantly with this garbage in place, it WILL. Check that your car doesn't have this "upgrade". It can be easily determined by looking at the lower cap. If it is thick and clunky-looking, it's the rubber ball system. If the lower cap is thin and contours exactly to the wishbone ball, it's the correct factory style. If the lower cap seats all the way against the upper cap with no gap in between, the wishbone ball is too worn and will need a spacer installed on TOP of the ball. It's available from all the vendors for a couple dollars.
Replace the rubber ball mess with the correct set-up and I'll bet your wobble goes away, assuming the worn tires have been replaced.
Marshall

Gold Digger · 12-23-2014, 09:58 AM

Just a tip on setting the toe-in. Never try to set it with the wheels off the floor. If I have done some kind of work on front end and want to set the toe-in I always drive around the block and pull in the shop with out backing up and then set the toe-in. That way all the looseness is in the forward movement direction which is the direction the car will travel most of the time.

Terry, NJ · 12-23-2014, 10:18 AM

I had just done to my coupe what you did, Rebuilt the steering box. And the play was under an inch. In a couple of months, it was back to where it was. I did a complete inspection on the whole system and I found the play was in the new Pitman arm connection. I had used a 3/8-16, grd 5 bolt and it had streched or distorted in some way that it wasn't tight on the new , short Pitman arm. I replaced it with a 7/16-14, grd 8 bolt and the play went right back to being under an inch.
Terry

Brobrian · 12-23-2014, 11:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bob C

Marco has some good information on setting toe.
http://www.abarnyard.com/workshop/align.htm

Bob

Okay, mischief managed. I looked at the diagram Bob posted and saw the error of my ways. The toe-in has to be measured at two places that are the same height above the road or else the camber (caster? Never can remember which is which.) affects the measurements. I readjusted the toe-in to about 1/16 properly measured and the wobble is gone.

Now both my A's are back on the road. Kinda sad. Guess I'll have to tear into the Harley's again.

Purdy Swoft · 12-23-2014, 01:59 PM

When you rebush the other spindle, you will need to check and probably reset the toe in . The nuts on the spindle arms need to be very tight. Many times a so-so tight spindle nut will perform good on the test drive but after a little use will become a little loose and the shimmy will return. Every time that a spindle or spindle arm is removed or loosened it will change the toe in .

Marshall V. Daut · 12-23-2014, 02:02 PM

Good to hear! I'm surprised, though, that being a little out of alignment would have caused your wobbling. Usually such out-of-alignment issues affect wandering or pulling to one side. I've fixed Model A's with as much a 1" toe-in or toe-out and they didn't wobble, only pulled or got squirrely in road ruts. Let's hope the new toe-in adjustment solved your problem.
Marshall

Mitch//pa · 12-23-2014, 02:18 PM

i also had the toe fix many a wobble

Purdy Swoft · 12-23-2014, 02:49 PM

I've owned and fixed my model A's for nearly 55 years and I have found that bad toe in to be the main problem that will set up shimmy. Loose king pins and bushing will contribute to shimmy after the shimmy begins. Usually too much toe in will scrub the tread on the tires and noticable effect power. The least bit of toe out will usually give a death wobble

Brobrian · 12-23-2014, 05:05 PM

The car seems to be cured, Guess I'll run it a couple of hundred miles and recheck the toe-in and the spindle bolts.

As I was studying up for my project I saw that Les Andrews warns against tie rod ends, and pitman arm ends being too tight. He recommends 25% spring compression, whatever that means. While I had the pitman off I felt how much force it took to move it back and forth and how much easier it was when I backed off the spring tension a bit. So when I reassembled those pieces this time I lessened the tension on them. I'll bet that contributes some to easier steering. The springs were still compressed, just not as much as I'd had them before.

Mitch//pa · 12-23-2014, 05:13 PM

i tighten them enough to get the cotter pins in then maybe an extra 1/2 turn

Brobrian · 12-23-2014, 05:21 PM

Yeah, that's about what I did. Don't want and slop, but don't want any extra friction making the mechanism harder to turn.

Y-Blockhead · 12-23-2014, 05:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Purdy Swoft

The least bit of toe out will usually give a death wobble

Purdy, When I first got my Town Sedan this past July it seemed to steer fine (to me, who never drove an "A" before). But it wanted to wander on rough roads.

I checked the alignment and found it had ~3/16" toe-out...

Upon further investigation I found the tie-rod was bent. New tie rod and re-alignment cured the problem. Never had the pleasure to experience the "Death Wobble", darn it!

Brobrian · 12-23-2014, 06:04 PM

Ahh, yes, the Dreaded Death Wobble. Even it's lesser cousin the Low Speed Wobble scares the tar out of passengers. Especially as I have to steer hard right or left a few times while accelerating to force it back into submission.

My grandson once asked with wide eyes, "What's wrong, Papa."
"Don't worry," I said, "we still have three good wheels."

12-22-2014, 10:11 PM	#1
Brobrian Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2012 Location: Riverside, CA Posts: 315	Tighter Steering, Wobble Remains Thanks to those who advised me on honing or reaming my king pin bushings. I'd hoped to stretch the job out for a few more days, but the work was too fun, and the weather too good. Today I reassembled the steering box, reinstalled the steering column, and put the spindle assembly back together. I'm still going to replace the bushings in the right spindle, but I thought I'd just put it all back together until the reamer I'm borrowing from a generous Barner in Virginia arrives. So, I took the coupe out for a little spin this evening. The steering is much easier, and tight as a drum. Absolutely no play, and smooth as silk. I was chuckling all the way down the street. Then, the front end started to wobble gently and continued throughout the short test ride. I'd checked the toe-in while the front end was up on blocks and found it to be very close to zero. When I got back I checked it again, with the car sitting on it's wheels and found it to be about 3/4" toe-in. I'll adjust it again tomorrow and see if I can get it right. Even when I get the toe-in adjusted properly, the tires are so improperly worn from having been aligned badly that I may not be able to get rid of the wobble until they are replaced. Anyway, the point of the post was to say thanks, and to share how much fun it is to tinker around with these cars. With every assembly I take apart, repair, and reassemble, the car becomes more dear to me. I don't care that I didn't completely fix the front end. I've had a couple of great days in my garage and learned a bunch. Can't wait to tinker with the alignment again, and to do the other spindle. __________________ Forty horses is plenty.

12-22-2014, 10:18 PM	#2
Bob C Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: So Cal Posts: 8,753	Re: Tighter Steering, Wobble Remains Marco has some good information on setting toe. http://www.abarnyard.com/workshop/align.htm Bob

12-22-2014, 10:24 PM	#3
tbirdtbird BANNED Join Date: May 2012 Location: inside your RAM Posts: 3,134	Re: Tighter Steering, Wobble Remains switch the fronts for the rears and test drive again once toe is set __________________ '31 180A

12-22-2014, 11:36 PM	#5
Mike V. Florida Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: South Florida Posts: 14,054	Re: Tighter Steering, Wobble Remains There are many more parts that, if worn, can cause a wobble. ANY junction that has a ball joint should be checked. The ball ends MUST be round the cups MUST not be worn, the springs MUST be of the correct length. I'll let others post the cheats that will cover up for worn parts. __________________ What's right about America is that although we have a mess of problems, we have great capacity - intellect and resources - to do some thing about them. - Henry Ford II

12-23-2014, 07:33 AM	#6
Mitch//pa BANNED Join Date: May 2010 Location: Bucks County, PA Posts: 11,454	Re: Tighter Steering, Wobble Remains Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements) just had a very bad death wobble on Ethans A, it had a little slop at the pitman arm to drag link so a tightening of the bolt fixed it plus it took out about 2" of play by doing that. i then set the toe on a computerized rack to specs... death wobble gone

12-23-2014, 08:58 AM	#7
Marshall V. Daut Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2011 Location: Davenport, Iowa Posts: 2,112	Re: Tighter Steering, Wobble Remains Over the years, I think I have found worn king pin bushings to be the cause of shimmying only a couple times - and they were REALLY worn! More often than not, some previous well-intentioned owner installed that worthless rubber ball front wishbone mount modification. If the car doesn't shimmy instantly with this garbage in place, it WILL. Check that your car doesn't have this "upgrade". It can be easily determined by looking at the lower cap. If it is thick and clunky-looking, it's the rubber ball system. If the lower cap is thin and contours exactly to the wishbone ball, it's the correct factory style. If the lower cap seats all the way against the upper cap with no gap in between, the wishbone ball is too worn and will need a spacer installed on TOP of the ball. It's available from all the vendors for a couple dollars. Replace the rubber ball mess with the correct set-up and I'll bet your wobble goes away, assuming the worn tires have been replaced. Marshall

12-23-2014, 09:58 AM	#8
Gold Digger Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2011 Location: Arkansas & Alaska Posts: 645	Re: Tighter Steering, Wobble Remains Just a tip on setting the toe-in. Never try to set it with the wheels off the floor. If I have done some kind of work on front end and want to set the toe-in I always drive around the block and pull in the shop with out backing up and then set the toe-in. That way all the looseness is in the forward movement direction which is the direction the car will travel most of the time.

12-23-2014, 10:18 AM	#9
Terry, NJ Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Bucks Co, Pa Posts: 3,740	Re: Tighter Steering, Wobble Remains I had just done to my coupe what you did, Rebuilt the steering box. And the play was under an inch. In a couple of months, it was back to where it was. I did a complete inspection on the whole system and I found the play was in the new Pitman arm connection. I had used a 3/8-16, grd 5 bolt and it had streched or distorted in some way that it wasn't tight on the new , short Pitman arm. I replaced it with a 7/16-14, grd 8 bolt and the play went right back to being under an inch. Terry

12-23-2014, 01:59 PM	#11
Purdy Swoft Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Alabama Posts: 8,099	Re: Tighter Steering, Wobble Remains When you rebush the other spindle, you will need to check and probably reset the toe in . The nuts on the spindle arms need to be very tight. Many times a so-so tight spindle nut will perform good on the test drive but after a little use will become a little loose and the shimmy will return. Every time that a spindle or spindle arm is removed or loosened it will change the toe in .

12-23-2014, 02:02 PM	#12
Marshall V. Daut Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2011 Location: Davenport, Iowa Posts: 2,112	Re: Tighter Steering, Wobble Remains Good to hear! I'm surprised, though, that being a little out of alignment would have caused your wobbling. Usually such out-of-alignment issues affect wandering or pulling to one side. I've fixed Model A's with as much a 1" toe-in or toe-out and they didn't wobble, only pulled or got squirrely in road ruts. Let's hope the new toe-in adjustment solved your problem. Marshall

12-23-2014, 02:18 PM	#13
Mitch//pa BANNED Join Date: May 2010 Location: Bucks County, PA Posts: 11,454	Re: Tighter Steering, Wobble Remains i also had the toe fix many a wobble

12-23-2014, 02:49 PM	#14
Purdy Swoft Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Alabama Posts: 8,099	Re: Tighter Steering, Wobble Remains I've owned and fixed my model A's for nearly 55 years and I have found that bad toe in to be the main problem that will set up shimmy. Loose king pins and bushing will contribute to shimmy after the shimmy begins. Usually too much toe in will scrub the tread on the tires and noticable effect power. The least bit of toe out will usually give a death wobble

12-23-2014, 05:05 PM	#15
Brobrian Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2012 Location: Riverside, CA Posts: 315	Re: Tighter Steering, Wobble Remains The car seems to be cured, Guess I'll run it a couple of hundred miles and recheck the toe-in and the spindle bolts. As I was studying up for my project I saw that Les Andrews warns against tie rod ends, and pitman arm ends being too tight. He recommends 25% spring compression, whatever that means. While I had the pitman off I felt how much force it took to move it back and forth and how much easier it was when I backed off the spring tension a bit. So when I reassembled those pieces this time I lessened the tension on them. I'll bet that contributes some to easier steering. The springs were still compressed, just not as much as I'd had them before. __________________ Forty horses is plenty.

12-23-2014, 05:13 PM	#16
Mitch//pa BANNED Join Date: May 2010 Location: Bucks County, PA Posts: 11,454	Re: Tighter Steering, Wobble Remains i tighten them enough to get the cotter pins in then maybe an extra 1/2 turn

12-23-2014, 05:21 PM	#17
Brobrian Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2012 Location: Riverside, CA Posts: 315	Re: Tighter Steering, Wobble Remains Yeah, that's about what I did. Don't want and slop, but don't want any extra friction making the mechanism harder to turn. __________________ Forty horses is plenty.

12-23-2014, 06:04 PM	#19
Brobrian Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2012 Location: Riverside, CA Posts: 315	Re: Tighter Steering, Wobble Remains Ahh, yes, the Dreaded Death Wobble. Even it's lesser cousin the Low Speed Wobble scares the tar out of passengers. Especially as I have to steer hard right or left a few times while accelerating to force it back into submission. My grandson once asked with wide eyes, "What's wrong, Papa." "Don't worry," I said, "we still have three good wheels." __________________ Forty horses is plenty.