The Ford Barn

Bruce Lancaster · 01-31-2013, 10:59 AM

Just for your further reading, I've posted lists of '32 and other early Ford patents on here somewhere. There are several patents relating to production and non-production aspects of the chassis design, none of them unfortunately actually relevant here.
Ford tended to get the patents out after stuff was already in production, but cranking through the patents of Model A--1936 period gives a lot of information on Ford tech thinking.
Ford also had a lot of wild-card patents, planetary tranmissions (not Model T!), pumpless oiling, rear engines and wild chassis designs...I think HF wanted to make sure that the Ford tradition of doing nearly everything differently from the industry at large carried on.

DavidG · 01-31-2013, 11:30 AM

With regard to your question about the destiny of the first 242 V-8 engines, think of them as test engines for durability purposes (or experimental engines trying out new or different ideas). Normally, they would be test run on equipment designed for that purpose until they failed, torn down to determine the reason for the failure, and either repaired and tested further or scrapped. Several of those pre-production or experimental V-8 engines ended up in a storage building in Greenfield Village in Dearborn and were eventually auctioned off along with other such engines from both before and after 1932 about twenty years ago or so. This was contrary for Ford's standing practice and their survival can likely be attributed to the fact that they had be donated the "The Henry Ford".

Someone earlier commented on GM's sloppy followup regarding the destruction of prototype and pre-production parts and vehicles and implied that Ford might have been similarly lax. It would seem that Ford had a better system as very few pre-production parts or vehicles over the years have survived unless they served a Ford purpose.

It is possible and remains to be determined via the engineering release forms that frame rails made before the reveals were added (which had to be very few given the 1931 date of the change) were released for general production use only on frames destined for commercial vehicles (like some other '32 parts which were changed early in the model year like manually adjustable shock absorbers, for example) rather than scrapped. Hopefully the surviving records will reflect that one way or the other.

Please be patient with the BFRC staff assisting you. They are not necessarily "car" people who have a basic understanding of historic automotive design and manufacturing practices but rather are archivists.

Lastly, no matter what you find at the BFRC, it would advance your case exponentially if one of the four fellows you refer to could come up with some photos of an original frame with flat side rails and all or at least two out of three of the original cross members still riveted in place and not having most of the original holes for the fenders and running boards eliminated, which seems to be the case in the photos of your frame.

Lucky Mike · 01-31-2013, 03:00 PM

DavidG, thank you again for all of the time you spend responding to me and sharing your knowledge with me. I am eating it up and truly appriciate it. Your comment on an early commercial vehical is spot on. I have spoken to the gentlemen who originally built this car and he told me that "I got the starter vehical from a farmer down the road from me, it was his 'farm truck'". As I mentioned earlier, the grill that I took off the car when I got is was a 1932 commercial, stamped truck grill. I still have it. I also know from that same gentlemen that is was originally a 4 cylinder vehical. Also as far as the holes that are missing from my frame. They are there, the gentlemen who built that car that I refer to above also told me that he filled the holes where the fenders were attached. He said when he got the starter "truck" it had fenders. BTW, I am only using "truck" as to quote the original builder. I understand the difference between truck and pickup.

I will indeed be patient with them at the BFRC, I am very grateful for their help.

I agree on the advancement of my case, I am working on pictures. I have messaged the 3 gentlemen and they have not got back to me yet and the guy in Vegas is going to get in touch with my friend.

Hopefully more soon.

Lucky Mike · 02-01-2013, 04:23 PM

Update everyone. I spoke to the Ford reseracher and they said it is going to be a couple of weeks as they are doing a write up. I will let you know.

VeryTangled · 02-01-2013, 05:51 PM

Awesome discussion everyone, thanks for all the time and knowledge you fellas are contributing. I know zero about '32's so am trying to follow closely and am learning a lot.

Sorry if I missed it, but I can't figure out the exact item that is a "reveal." I think it was stated that this photo shows it, but my question is where? Can some helpful 'Barner direct me to the place in this photo that shows the reveal?

-VT/Jeff

Edited, 8-30-2014 to add photo of blue car, see the 'flare' as it goes towards the ground, or the running board, originally.

http://www.earlyfordv8.org/forum/fil...otos%20215.jpg

DavidG · 02-01-2013, 07:18 PM

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It is the flared area running horizontally along the bottom edge of the frame side rail between the front and rear fenders. Its presence (plus a class A finish on the side rail) eliminates the need for separate running board aprons such as were used on Model As.

VeryTangled · 02-02-2013, 04:57 PM

Awesome DavidG, I went and read again from the beginning and now I'm understanding better. If it had been on Lucky's frame it would be visible in picture 3 of post 2. It is visible in post #11's photo.

-VT/Jeff

32 Model B · 02-03-2013, 09:57 PM

Didn't Ford also stamp the number in the rear axle area on top of the drivers side rail?

Lucky Mike · 02-03-2013, 10:06 PM

yes, 3 spots. Firewall, mid-frame and rear frame.

Mart · 02-04-2013, 04:38 AM

Mike, have you personally witnessed these stamped numbers on YOUR frame?

If you have, why have you not at least given an indication of what the number approximately is?

There is a lot of ifs, buts and maybes here, but the one crucial piece of evidence has been omitted or avoided.

I hope you do have what you think you have, but without a meaningful number stamped at the ford factory, it would be hard to prove they were made by Ford.

Mart.

Lucky Mike · 02-04-2013, 09:08 AM

I understand your sentiment Mart. Please remember I did not build this car. I have never seen the frame without the body let alone bare. At this point, I have decided to wait for the Ford Researchers rather than add further to the chain with partial information and personal speculation. When I hear back from the researcher, I will do a full write up. Depending on what they say, I may indeed remove the body from the frame as part of my quest. At this point, though, I think it is prudent to just wait. I am as eager as everyone else, but clearly based on what the researcher initially said there were / are frames out there made before Oct. 13, 1931 which did not have the "line" that was added thereafter.

Lucky Mike · 02-04-2013, 03:04 PM

Farm "truck" or better said, "pickup". To reveal or not reveal, that is the question.

Lucky Mike · 02-06-2013, 02:39 PM

This pickup has the reveal.

DavidG · 02-06-2013, 05:49 PM

It would be astounding if it did not given the number of late production features.

Lucky Mike · 02-06-2013, 08:34 PM

Agreed. According to the VIN is was made in July 1932.....BUT, I will bet if you think about it you will know why I bought this truck and what my plans are as relates to the Roadster frame without the reveal. Any guess's?

1932 V8 · 02-06-2013, 08:49 PM

Just my opinion but it would be a shame to take that truck apart . It is very cool as it sits . Just my 2c

Lucky Mike · 02-06-2013, 08:55 PM

trust me, it will be what it was when it was originally made. I am goign to bring two things that were meant to be together, back together. It will be original, beautiful and perfect.

Lucky Mike · 02-18-2013, 09:21 PM

I heard from the Ford Research Center. I should hear back later this week or early next.

Mike

alchemy · 02-26-2013, 12:20 PM

I was reading my copy of Thacker's "Deuce" book last night, and saw two different archival pics of an October '31 produced prototype chassis. It has a lot of peculiarities, including no reveal on the side. But I did note it did not have the notches on the top for the cowl band bolts. Yours does.

This proto chassis also had a very odd K-member, and yours is regular, correct? The proto K is actually a whole lot like a '49 F-1 center crossmember, which hangs down below the tail of the transmission.

So, since your chassis has the cowl band notches, and the October '31 proto pic shows none, I'm guessing your chassis is still unexplainable (so far).

Curt Cummings · 03-25-2013, 01:10 AM

There was also a outfit out of Beaverton Oregon that produced aftermarket frames for Model A, 32 or a 32 frame pinched for a Model A and a 33-34 frame. They were Hi-Tec Products. I purchased the frame that is under my 31 coupe from them. The 32 frame they offered did not have the reveal. They also stamped the serial # for your title into the frame so it would match the car. I still have the invoice for it in my file.

01-31-2013, 11:30 AM	#2
DavidG Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: southeastern Michigan Posts: 10,670	Re: 1932 Ford Chassis without the Reveal. With regard to your question about the destiny of the first 242 V-8 engines, think of them as test engines for durability purposes (or experimental engines trying out new or different ideas). Normally, they would be test run on equipment designed for that purpose until they failed, torn down to determine the reason for the failure, and either repaired and tested further or scrapped. Several of those pre-production or experimental V-8 engines ended up in a storage building in Greenfield Village in Dearborn and were eventually auctioned off along with other such engines from both before and after 1932 about twenty years ago or so. This was contrary for Ford's standing practice and their survival can likely be attributed to the fact that they had be donated the "The Henry Ford". Someone earlier commented on GM's sloppy followup regarding the destruction of prototype and pre-production parts and vehicles and implied that Ford might have been similarly lax. It would seem that Ford had a better system as very few pre-production parts or vehicles over the years have survived unless they served a Ford purpose. It is possible and remains to be determined via the engineering release forms that frame rails made before the reveals were added (which had to be very few given the 1931 date of the change) were released for general production use only on frames destined for commercial vehicles (like some other '32 parts which were changed early in the model year like manually adjustable shock absorbers, for example) rather than scrapped. Hopefully the surviving records will reflect that one way or the other. Please be patient with the BFRC staff assisting you. They are not necessarily "car" people who have a basic understanding of historic automotive design and manufacturing practices but rather are archivists. Lastly, no matter what you find at the BFRC, it would advance your case exponentially if one of the four fellows you refer to could come up with some photos of an original frame with flat side rails and all or at least two out of three of the original cross members still riveted in place and not having most of the original holes for the fenders and running boards eliminated, which seems to be the case in the photos of your frame. Last edited by DavidG; 01-31-2013 at 04:02 PM.

01-31-2013, 03:00 PM	#3
Lucky Mike Member Join Date: Dec 2012 Location: Windsor, Colorado Posts: 63	Re: 1932 Ford Chassis without the Reveal. DavidG, thank you again for all of the time you spend responding to me and sharing your knowledge with me. I am eating it up and truly appriciate it. Your comment on an early commercial vehical is spot on. I have spoken to the gentlemen who originally built this car and he told me that "I got the starter vehical from a farmer down the road from me, it was his 'farm truck'". As I mentioned earlier, the grill that I took off the car when I got is was a 1932 commercial, stamped truck grill. I still have it. I also know from that same gentlemen that is was originally a 4 cylinder vehical. Also as far as the holes that are missing from my frame. They are there, the gentlemen who built that car that I refer to above also told me that he filled the holes where the fenders were attached. He said when he got the starter "truck" it had fenders. BTW, I am only using "truck" as to quote the original builder. I understand the difference between truck and pickup. I will indeed be patient with them at the BFRC, I am very grateful for their help. I agree on the advancement of my case, I am working on pictures. I have messaged the 3 gentlemen and they have not got back to me yet and the guy in Vegas is going to get in touch with my friend. Hopefully more soon. __________________ Lucky Mike Lucky Bones Motor Club (303) 887-8313 [email protected]

02-01-2013, 04:23 PM	#4
Lucky Mike Member Join Date: Dec 2012 Location: Windsor, Colorado Posts: 63	Re: 1932 Ford Chassis without the Reveal. Update everyone. I spoke to the Ford reseracher and they said it is going to be a couple of weeks as they are doing a write up. I will let you know. __________________ Lucky Mike Lucky Bones Motor Club (303) 887-8313 [email protected]

02-01-2013, 07:18 PM	#6
DavidG Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: southeastern Michigan Posts: 10,670	Re: 1932 Ford Chassis without the Reveal. Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements) It is the flared area running horizontally along the bottom edge of the frame side rail between the front and rear fenders. Its presence (plus a class A finish on the side rail) eliminates the need for separate running board aprons such as were used on Model As.

02-02-2013, 04:57 PM	#7
VeryTangled Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: (Not far enough...) Outside of DC Posts: 3,400	Re: 1932 Ford Chassis without the Reveal. Awesome DavidG, I went and read again from the beginning and now I'm understanding better. If it had been on Lucky's frame it would be visible in picture 3 of post 2. It is visible in post #11's photo. -VT/Jeff

01-31-2013, 10:59 AM	#1
Bruce Lancaster Member Emeritus Join Date: May 2010 Location: Madison, NJ Posts: 5,230	Re: 1932 Ford Chassis without the Reveal. Just for your further reading, I've posted lists of '32 and other early Ford patents on here somewhere. There are several patents relating to production and non-production aspects of the chassis design, none of them unfortunately actually relevant here. Ford tended to get the patents out after stuff was already in production, but cranking through the patents of Model A--1936 period gives a lot of information on Ford tech thinking. Ford also had a lot of wild-card patents, planetary tranmissions (not Model T!), pumpless oiling, rear engines and wild chassis designs...I think HF wanted to make sure that the Ford tradition of doing nearly everything differently from the industry at large carried on.

02-03-2013, 09:57 PM	#8
32 Model B Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2010 Location: Bethlehem, CT Posts: 133	Re: 1932 Ford Chassis without the Reveal. Didn't Ford also stamp the number in the rear axle area on top of the drivers side rail? __________________ You are only as good as your last mistake.

02-03-2013, 10:06 PM	#9
Lucky Mike Member Join Date: Dec 2012 Location: Windsor, Colorado Posts: 63	Re: 1932 Ford Chassis without the Reveal. yes, 3 spots. Firewall, mid-frame and rear frame. __________________ Lucky Mike Lucky Bones Motor Club (303) 887-8313 [email protected]

02-04-2013, 04:38 AM	#10
Mart Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Solihull, England. Posts: 9,240	Re: 1932 Ford Chassis without the Reveal. Mike, have you personally witnessed these stamped numbers on YOUR frame? If you have, why have you not at least given an indication of what the number approximately is? There is a lot of ifs, buts and maybes here, but the one crucial piece of evidence has been omitted or avoided. I hope you do have what you think you have, but without a meaningful number stamped at the ford factory, it would be hard to prove they were made by Ford. Mart.

02-04-2013, 09:08 AM	#11
Lucky Mike Member Join Date: Dec 2012 Location: Windsor, Colorado Posts: 63	Re: 1932 Ford Chassis without the Reveal. I understand your sentiment Mart. Please remember I did not build this car. I have never seen the frame without the body let alone bare. At this point, I have decided to wait for the Ford Researchers rather than add further to the chain with partial information and personal speculation. When I hear back from the researcher, I will do a full write up. Depending on what they say, I may indeed remove the body from the frame as part of my quest. At this point, though, I think it is prudent to just wait. I am as eager as everyone else, but clearly based on what the researcher initially said there were / are frames out there made before Oct. 13, 1931 which did not have the "line" that was added thereafter. __________________ Lucky Mike Lucky Bones Motor Club (303) 887-8313 [email protected]

02-06-2013, 05:49 PM	#14
DavidG Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: southeastern Michigan Posts: 10,670	Re: 1932 Ford Chassis without the Reveal. It would be astounding if it did not given the number of late production features.

02-06-2013, 08:34 PM	#15
Lucky Mike Member Join Date: Dec 2012 Location: Windsor, Colorado Posts: 63	Re: 1932 Ford Chassis without the Reveal. Agreed. According to the VIN is was made in July 1932.....BUT, I will bet if you think about it you will know why I bought this truck and what my plans are as relates to the Roadster frame without the reveal. Any guess's? __________________ Lucky Mike Lucky Bones Motor Club (303) 887-8313 [email protected]

02-06-2013, 08:49 PM	#16
1932 V8 Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Windsor California Posts: 496	Re: 1932 Ford Chassis without the Reveal. Just my opinion but it would be a shame to take that truck apart . It is very cool as it sits . Just my 2c

02-06-2013, 08:55 PM	#17
Lucky Mike Member Join Date: Dec 2012 Location: Windsor, Colorado Posts: 63	Re: 1932 Ford Chassis without the Reveal. trust me, it will be what it was when it was originally made. I am goign to bring two things that were meant to be together, back together. It will be original, beautiful and perfect. __________________ Lucky Mike Lucky Bones Motor Club (303) 887-8313 [email protected]

02-18-2013, 09:21 PM	#18
Lucky Mike Member Join Date: Dec 2012 Location: Windsor, Colorado Posts: 63	Re: 1932 Ford Chassis without the Reveal. I heard from the Ford Research Center. I should hear back later this week or early next. Mike __________________ Lucky Mike Lucky Bones Motor Club (303) 887-8313 [email protected]

02-26-2013, 12:20 PM	#19
alchemy Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: middle of Iowa Posts: 1,001	Re: 1932 Ford Chassis without the Reveal. I was reading my copy of Thacker's "Deuce" book last night, and saw two different archival pics of an October '31 produced prototype chassis. It has a lot of peculiarities, including no reveal on the side. But I did note it did not have the notches on the top for the cowl band bolts. Yours does. This proto chassis also had a very odd K-member, and yours is regular, correct? The proto K is actually a whole lot like a '49 F-1 center crossmember, which hangs down below the tail of the transmission. So, since your chassis has the cowl band notches, and the October '31 proto pic shows none, I'm guessing your chassis is still unexplainable (so far).

03-25-2013, 01:10 AM	#20
Curt Cummings Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: Camano Island, WA Posts: 97	Re: 1932 Ford Chassis without the Reveal. There was also a outfit out of Beaverton Oregon that produced aftermarket frames for Model A, 32 or a 32 frame pinched for a Model A and a 33-34 frame. They were Hi-Tec Products. I purchased the frame that is under my 31 coupe from them. The 32 frame they offered did not have the reveal. They also stamped the serial # for your title into the frame so it would match the car. I still have the invoice for it in my file.