1940 Deluxe Convertible Door Alignment

[Karl Wescott]

With due respect to all,

It appears to me that there is also an uneven gap door to cowl. Presuming this is not caused by an improper dovetail it can be adjusted by bending the lower hinge forward. As the gaps are complementing it should help with the too tight gap at the bottom of the "B" pillar and drop the top of the door to be more in alignment with the top of the quarter.
When putting things back together remember Ford had "offset" dovetails to accommodate slight vertical alignment differences with the dovetail and door socket.

[Kube]

Originally Posted by Karl Wescott

With due respect to all,

It appears to me that there is also an uneven gap door to cowl. Presuming this is not caused by an improper dovetail it can be adjusted by bending the lower hinge forward. As the gaps are complementing it should help with the too tight gap at the bottom of the "B" pillar and drop the top of the door to be more in alignment with the top of the quarter.
When putting things back together remember Ford had "offset" dovetails to accommodate slight vertical alignment differences with the dovetail and door socket.

Karl, I was possibly gonna "go there" (bending hinges) later. You are absolutely correct. Still, bending will require paint work, not something I'm betting this owner wants to tackle.

I'd never seen an offset dovetail for a '40 convertible.

[Nick Bernier]

Lot of ground to cover here and I'm going to show my ignorance:

By "character line" are you talking about the slightly high rear edge of the door at the B pillar? If so, that doesn't bother me too much, but if that has to be corrected before anything else is done, that's fine.

Not sure if I'm equipped to add/remove shims. I only have the basic tools (sockets, wrenches, screw drivers, etc.), floor jack, jack stands, no lift. In your book, you talk about the body mount pads, but I didn't see anything about shims, or where they're located. I don't think that's shown in any of my Ford books. Are there books that go down another level and are more detailed in these areas?

I have not removed the male latch yet. Was concerned about a backing plate falling loose, which it sounds like it will. There is a thin, leather wrapped trim piece on the back side of the B pillar. A screw at the top and what appears to be metal press-type fasteners every six inches or so. Can I pop those out with a trim tool to get access to the plate when it falls?

As far as painting goes, I'm OK with repainting a hinge, but I don't want to paint an entire panel. Not sure what an offset dovetail is.

Sure wish you guys lived closer!!

Thanks to all,
Nick

[Kube]

Originally Posted by Nick Bernier

Lot of ground to cover here and I'm going to show my ignorance:

By "character line" are you talking about the slightly high rear edge of the door at the B pillar? If so, that doesn't bother me too much, but if that has to be corrected before anything else is done, that's fine.

Not sure if I'm equipped to add/remove shims. I only have the basic tools (sockets, wrenches, screw drivers, etc.), floor jack, jack stands, no lift. In your book, you talk about the body mount pads, but I didn't see anything about shims, or where they're located. I don't think that's shown in any of my Ford books. Are there books that go down another level and are more detailed in these areas?

I have not removed the male latch yet. Was concerned about a backing plate falling loose, which it sounds like it will. There is a thin, leather wrapped trim piece on the back side of the B pillar. A screw at the top and what appears to be metal press-type fasteners every six inches or so. Can I pop those out with a trim tool to get access to the plate when it falls?

As far as painting goes, I'm OK with repainting a hinge, but I don't want to paint an entire panel. Not sure what an offset dovetail is.

Sure wish you guys lived closer!!

Thanks to all,
Nick

The character line is the "crevasse" formed in the body just a bit above the stainless trim.

Yes, remove the screw from the B pillar trim and pry the clips toward you to remove the trim piece.
The plate will (hopefully) be contained yet within its original cage. If it falls, it'll take a little fishing with a magnet to retrieve it.
Out of all the convertibles I'd restored, I seem to recall only two that the cages were absent.

I strongly suggest you remove both the male dovetail and the male latch. The dovetail is the stainless piece, looks like a wedge, that is attached to the door jamb. An offset dovetail was used is the male dovetail did not quite line up with the (female) wedges in the B pillar.
I have never seen these offered for a '40 Ford. Typically, if the dovetail lifts the door, or pushes it downward, I grind a bit off of the respective wedge(s).

Body shims... they can be purchased at any decent auto body supply place. Or, cut a slot out of a flat washer.

[Nick Bernier]

Got it on the character line. Does the male dovetail have a backing plate that will fall? The way it is now, the dovetail is a wee bit high, but very close to center; about the same amount that the door is high.

I'm still concerned that this might be more than I can accomplish in my home garage without an extensive set of tools at my disposal. This is prime convertible weather here in Texas now. If this may take a few weeks of tweaking, I may want to wait until it too cool to enjoy a convertible.

I've got a buddy coming over tomorrow to help put a new drag link in. I'll put the car up on jack stands for the day, so no new measurements. While I think about it, I couldn't find any info on what to torque the tie rod nuts to?? I'm hoping there's a service manual other than the 1932-1941 Shop Manual.

Thanks again Kube,
Nick

[Kube]

Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)

Originally Posted by Nick Bernier

Got it on the character line. Does the male dovetail have a backing plate that will fall? The way it is now, the dovetail is a wee bit high, but very close to center; about the same amount that the door is high.

I'm still concerned that this might be more than I can accomplish in my home garage without an extensive set of tools at my disposal. This is prime convertible weather here in Texas now. If this may take a few weeks of tweaking, I may want to wait until it too cool to enjoy a convertible.

I've got a buddy coming over tomorrow to help put a new drag link in. I'll put the car up on jack stands for the day, so no new measurements. While I think about it, I couldn't find any info on what to torque the tie rod nuts to?? I'm hoping there's a service manual other than the 1932-1941 Shop Manual.

Thanks again Kube,
Nick

The stainless dovetail is fastened to a pair of staked nuts.

[TJ]

For body shims you can go to Harbor freight and get a box of miscellaneous front end shims to do the job.

[Karl Wescott]

Originally Posted by TJ

For body shims you can go to Harbor freight and get a box of miscellaneous front end shims to do the job.

YES!


Welding a wire "tail" on each one helps as you insert and remove to get the "stack" correct.


Removing and replacing with the same height washers prevents having to redo the job when a body bolt loosens up.

[Nick Bernier]

Made some good progress today. Got the new drag link installed. Raised the convertible top, but was only able to get one latch to connect. Still a bit stiff. Removed the male latch, dovetail, and rubber bumpers. The new latch was delivered today. Quite a difference from the old one, which is obviously bent, making a less-than-smooth connection with the latch in the door.

Kube, what photos, measurements would you like to see at this point?

Thanks,
Nick

[Kube]

Originally Posted by TJ

For body shims you can go to Harbor freight and get a box of miscellaneous front end shims to do the job.

I'd never thought of this. DUH!
Thanks for the tip.

[Kube]

Originally Posted by Nick Bernier

Made some good progress today. Got the new drag link installed. Raised the convertible top, but was only able to get one latch to connect. Still a bit stiff. Removed the male latch, dovetail, and rubber bumpers. The new latch was delivered today. Quite a difference from the old one, which is obviously bent, making a less-than-smooth connection with the latch in the door.

Kube, what photos, measurements would you like to see at this point?

Thanks,
Nick

That bent catch is indicative of the door and / or B pillar being out of whack.
I have welded a thin plate on the back of these latches in the past. Grind them down and no one knows they were modified.

I am glad to see you have removed all the pieces that may influence the door alignment. Now that the pieces have been removed, how is the alignment? Did anything change?

I would suggest you don't do any body adjustments until the top is firmly closed / latched.
You may be quite surprised at how far the A pillar and subsequently the door, can be tipped from the top.

[Nick Bernier]

Got all three latches on the top secured. Will let it sit overnight and see how it looks in the morning. Will post a pic or two then.

Thanks
Nick

[Nick Bernier]

A new day and things are looking up. With the top up and latched, the character lines match up perfectly. With the lower rubber bumper removed, the door can close a little further making the gap at the top less, only about 3/16" now. I put some modeling clay in the jam where the bumper fits. I can trim the new bumper to allow the door to close to that point. The window also seems to fit well into the weather stripping on the top. I think with the new male latch and new rubber bumpers, I'm going to call it good. Not sure if trial and error shimming will be worth the modest improvement. I'm not looking to win awards, just to have a nice driver. What say you?

Nick

[Kube]

Originally Posted by Nick Bernier

A new day and things are looking up. With the top up and latched, the character lines match up perfectly. With the lower rubber bumper removed, the door can close a little further making the gap at the top less, only about 3/16" now. I put some modeling clay in the jam where the bumper fits. I can trim the new bumper to allow the door to close to that point. The window also seems to fit well into the weather stripping on the top. I think with the new male latch and new rubber bumpers, I'm going to call it good. Not sure if trial and error shimming will be worth the modest improvement. I'm not looking to win awards, just to have a nice driver. What say you?

Nick

Nick, If you're okay with this, then why ask for more frustration?

I must say, whomever had done the body preparation didn't pay close enough attention to the fit of the panels.
The panels should fit (in my opinion) perfectly prior to paint.
Whomever installed the top placed too much tension on it. While the canvas needs to be taut, it should not pull so much as to change the body alignment as much as this has.
I'd like to revisit this car after it's sat for a day or two with the top up.

Can you get the top very wet and allow it to dry in the sun?

In order to get the verticle door edge flush with the quarter, at least from my vantage point, well, I'd remove the door panel, cut the diagonal brace within the door and twist the door until it matched the quarter, reweld the brace.
Unless there's a lot of putty in the door skin, you can most likely do this without paint damage.

[Karl Wescott]

My thoughts on what is now described is a "soggy" cowl. That everything pulls into alignment is a very good sign but there could be unnecessary stress on the top. Consider loosening the body bolts at the rear of the cowl, pushing the cowl forward slightly of where the top fits, adding shims to those two bolt locations only, and see if the cowl settles with good door alignment and top alignment. The big deal with this is you will be comfortable with lowering the top and not risking door chipping etc.

[Kube]

Originally Posted by Karl Wescott

My thoughts on what is now described is a "soggy" cowl. That everything pulls into alignment is a very good sign but there could be unnecessary stress on the top. Consider loosening the body bolts at the rear of the cowl, pushing the cowl forward slightly of where the top fits, adding shims to those two bolt locations only, and see if the cowl settles with good door alignment and top alignment. The big deal with this is you will be comfortable with lowering the top and not risking door chipping etc.

Karl,
You and I have done enough of these to know all too well how important it is to have each and every panel perfect prior to painting.
These open body style cars are a definite test of my patience!
When I do the body work and alignment, I use the frame I plan on using with that restoration. I use 1/8" steel shims under each body mount. From there I make it all "fit".

Without being there (hands on this car) it is difficult to offer definitive advice. I believe you and I are on the same proverbial path.
My gut tells me the top was installed too tight. We may know better once the top has been up a few days.
I also believe there are body alignment issues regardless of the top.
That bent male door catch is a sure indication someone missed a step or three.

[Nick Bernier]

Can't thank you guys enough for the technical and moral support. At this point, I'm calling it good (for now). When winter rolls around, I may revisit this issue. In the mean time, on to my NEW problem. Working on the car yesterday, I left the switch on. I went into the garage around 10pm last night to make sure all the lights were off. Smelled smoke. A few seconds later, I heard a pop and smoke coming up from the front of the motor. The coil was too hot to touch, and it puked out its tar-like contents. Can't find a new in stock anywhere, so might go with the adapter plate. Guess I can't complain; I did buy the car to have something to work on!!
Thanks again,
Nick

[Nick Bernier]

Ooops, meant to post a pic.....

[Kube]

Originally Posted by Nick Bernier

Can't thank you guys enough for the technical and moral support. At this point, I'm calling it good (for now). When winter rolls around, I may revisit this issue. In the mean time, on to my NEW problem. Working on the car yesterday, I left the switch on. I went into the garage around 10pm last night to make sure all the lights were off. Smelled smoke. A few seconds later, I heard a pop and smoke coming up from the front of the motor. The coil was too hot to touch, and it puked out its tar-like contents. Can't find a new in stock anywhere, so might go with the adapter plate. Guess I can't complain; I did buy the car to have something to work on!!
Thanks again,
Nick

Ah, the ol' "I left the switch on" story. Nick, many of us, at one time or another, have done exactly that and have had the same nasty result.
A little advice? Do NOT purchase a reproduction coil. There are many used OEM Ford coils available for nearly nothing.

Send a Ford (OEM) coil to George Haney for rebuilding and you will be one happy camper. I may have a rebuilt, concourse correct coil here if you'd like me to look.

[rockfla]

Originally Posted by Kube

Ah, the ol' "I left the switch on" story. Nick, many of us, at one time or another, have done exactly that and have had the same nasty result.
A little advice? Do NOT purchase a reproduction coil. There are many used OEM Ford coils available for nearly nothing.

Send a Ford (OEM) coil to George Haney for rebuilding and you will be one happy camper. I may have a rebuilt, concourse correct coil here if you'd like me to look.

AND just for your records.....Skip Haney is at 29436 Taralane Drive, Punta Gorda FL. 33982. Phone number is (941) 505 - 9085. AS you see he "WAS" in the basic "ground zero" of hurricane Ian......SO....IF you plan on sending him a coil, expect extra time as the infrastructure is in constant repair, the postal service is somewhat regulating what they can deliver into the area. From an earlier post, Skip made it through the storm and was "supposedly" up and running.....BUT "IF" you can spare a little time.....You may hold your coil for a bit to let the area "recover" somewhat for a more "reliable" desired outcome!!! I am only 250 miles north of him and am holding a box right now to send him and will most likely wait another couple of weeks before I send it to at least let things settle into whatever new "normal" is!!! Just FYI.