Non-Detergent Motor Oil

[DD931]

I have a '48 F-1. As I read through the Ford service literature of that era ('48-'53) I find that detergent oil was just coming into service. Not mentioned in early literature but recommended a year or two later. It's not a matter of whether it was recommended in the 30's and 40's - it didn't exist!! When it did come on the market Ford embraced it - for the same engines we are running now. Detergent oil doesn't clean the engine - it keeps the sludge from forming. I can't imagine not using it. I run it in my original '48 engine and am happy to do so. I've used it in Model A's, V-8s and old tractor engines. Embrace the new (Late '40s!!) technology!! Same discussion for multi-viscosity (10-40) oils.

[FrankWest]

Originally Posted by DD931

I have a '48 F-1. As I read through the Ford service literature of that era ('48-'53) I find that detergent oil was just coming into service. Not mentioned in early literature but recommended a year or two later. It's not a matter of whether it was recommended in the 30's and 40's - it didn't exist!! When it did come on the market Ford embraced it - for the same engines we are running now. Detergent oil doesn't clean the engine - it keeps the sludge from forming. I can't imagine not using it. I run it in my original '48 engine and am happy to do so. I've used it in Model A's, V-8s and old tractor engines. Embrace the new (Late '40s!!) technology!! Same discussion for multi-viscosity (10-40) oils.

Great! That will make things a lot easier for me.
Just one last question.
Why do antique auto parts dealers like Mac's still sell the non-detergent engine oil?

[Uncle Bob]

Originally Posted by FrankWest

Just one last question.
Why do antique auto parts dealers like Mac's still sell the non-detergent engine oil?

For the same reason politicians continue to deceive..............despite reality there's a market for it..........

[JSeery]

Same as the 600w they sell!

[rotorwrench]

Non-Detergent is for break in. I wouldn't recommend it for any other use. If you need some, Restoration Supply Company carries it and other harder to find lubricants.

[DD931]

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Mac's et. al. sell it because people buy it. That's not where you should be going for advice on how to care for your engine!! I don't know why you would use non-detergent oil for break-in, either. What property does non-detergent oil have that makes it desirable for break-in use? Wouldn't the detergent action of the detergent oil keep fine wear particles in suspension better?

[Ol' Ron]

Great thread, logic has it that keep ing all thad Gunk and ware products in suspension is great for an engine with a full flow filter. However, without the FULL flow filter we just pump all that cr*p through the bearings. Plan a head.

[FrankWest]

Originally Posted by Ol' Ron

Great thread, logic has it that keep ing all thad Gunk and ware products in suspension is great for an engine with a full flow filter. However, without the FULL flow filter we just pump all that cr*p through the bearings. Plan a head.

Sounds like wise advice...I imagine that my original 1933 model B does NOT have a Full Flow Filter

Thanks Ron, you are a wise man.

[Uncle Bob]

Originally Posted by Ol' Ron

Great thread, logic has it that keep ing all thad Gunk and ware products in suspension is great for an engine with a full flow filter. However, without the FULL flow filter we just pump all that cr*p through the bearings. Plan a head.

At the risk of seeming to be Luke taking on Yoda that is perhaps marginally true in some instances, but not as universal as it might seem in the abstract.
It would depend on particle size and molecular weight (don't panic folks, this isn't going to get too wonky). Even if there is a full flow system the oil still changes color dependent on how much stuff/contaminant the engine produces/ingests. Particles smaller than the porosity of the filter media still get through. A large part of why a filter system has a bypass is so that if too much junk accumulates to plug the filter the engine will still get oil; the engineers knowing that "dirty" oil is better than no oil. The dispersant won't hold all particles in suspension either (this goes to the wear particle idea). Higher molecular weight particles will not be held in suspension by the dispersant, and maybe a few will be held "afloat" by fluid flow, but most will likely fall out of the oil flow. If the particle size is smaller than the bearing clearances they will likely flow past those bearing surfaces except in some unusual circumstances. In which case, a non-detergent oil would likely have the same issues. Frequent oil changes in an unfiltered system would help some, but, depending on how much contaminant the engine produces, isn't a complete solution either.

[ford38v8]

Originally Posted by Ol' Ron

Great thread, logic has it that keep ing all thad Gunk and ware products in suspension is great for an engine with a full flow filter. However, without the FULL flow filter we just pump all that cr*p through the bearings. Plan a head.

Ron, I have a non-Ford vehicle that has an automatic transmission in which only 3 qts out of a total of 7 qts can drain out. To change that fluid, the factory specifies to drain and refill 3 times, with a short drive in between each refill, the object being to reach a point at which further purges become pointless, as the fluid has been almost completely changed over. I use this as an example to compare with the bypass filters used on our Fords... With a total of 5 qts in the engine, it's been estimated that it takes only a 10 minute drive to circulate all the oil through the filter.

The non-detergent oil of yesteryear also kept impurities in suspension, but only until the engine was shut down, at which time the impurities slowly began to sink to become sludge on all horizontal surfaces of the engine. This culling of impurities occurred overnight, thereby allowing a somewhat cleaner oil to begin the new day with.

As a side note, all full flow oil filters have a built-in bypass that allows oil to return to service without first being filtered. Although intended to pass increasingly more oil as the filter gets dirty, we as consumers have no way of knowing when and if those filters are actually full flowing.

[ford38v8]

Uncle Bob, I didn't really steal your thunder, you posted while I was typing! At least we know that we are in agreement on the important stuff!

[JSeery]

"we as consumers have no way of knowing when and if those filters are actually full flowing."
Not entirely true, the filters have a by-pass pressure rating, so you at least know the pressure (in the filter) it will start to by-pass at.

[ford38v8]

"...the filters have a by-pass pressure rating..."

I'm sure this is true, but where is this information available to the public, and how reliable is it?

[FrankWest]

Oi-vey....I wish I knew what I was doing!

[GB SISSON]

I run diesel rated oil in my flatheads and other old engines. Something I read about 'flat tappet' engines and more zinc in the diesel rated stuff. Just so happens with a bunch of diesels around, it's what's on my shelf. Just sayin'....

[DD931]

So, under any circumstances you should change oil frequently unless you've managed to rig up a full-flow filter! The sludge-producing elements go out with the oil if they are suspended in the detergent oil!

[WestCoast]

non detergent oil has no anti acid, no anti wear, no anti moisture, no anti foaming agent, and absolutely no cleaning agents (detergents) you have a $4000 to $5000 engines, so go ahead and use non detergent oil, it wont hurt to have a new engine every 5000 miles or so, I love these guys who read that 80 year old maintenance guide, and think its gossible, they have no idea how much better oils and greases are now compared to back then, they ran that oil because that's all they had, non detergent oil is just refined oil with nothing in it to protect your engine that's why the 500 mile oil change was recommended, even the cars in the 50's with out filters were told to change the oil every 1000 miles because of better oil

[48 coupe]

I didn't say hyproid gl. 4 or 5. I said GEAR OIL. A 90 wt. gear oil is the same as a 50 wt non detergent. oil. Anyway it was back in the day. OH my god not the oil story. LOL. He didn't ask what to use he wanted to know where to get non deterg. oil.

[Mart]

My engines tend to run on a through flow constant loss system.

[JSeery]

Originally Posted by Mart

My engines tend to run on a through flow constant loss system.

The oil is always fresh that way!