'35 cigar lighter short/falure?

[Steve Fehniger]

Ford Barn members,
I would greatly appreciate your experience and input on an issue I had this morning when waking up the '35 Tudor Touring Sedan from winter sleep.

After running the engine just over 10 minutes at or slightly above idle to mix up the new coolant, I noticed the amp gauge was reading unusually low (about -15 Amps draw on the system). I had no accessories on and even when rev'd the engine I could not bring amp gauge back to even. I then smelled something burning and saw smoke rising from behind the dash. I shut engine down and disconnected battery. Then cigar lighter handle then fell off and I could see cigar lighter was red hot. Nasty smell. I was able to remove cigar lighter mechanism with a pick and it cooled down in a can.
QUESTIONS: Has anyone had the cigar lighter, which is original, fail or short out when not pushed in? Any thoughts on what happened and what I should check on the electrical system as a result of this failure?
Your input would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks,
Steve
Keep V8ing

[petehoovie]

Originally Posted by Steve Fehniger

QUESTIONS: Has anyone had the cigar lighter, which is original, fail or short out when not pushed in? Any thoughts on what happened and what I should check on the electrical system as a result of this failure?
Your input would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks,
Steve
Keep V8ing

[Steve Fehniger]

A follow-up: thanks for making the pics large, need to learn how to do that Pete. For my question on the electrical system, I plan to disconnect the wire to cigar lighter from the stud on fuse/termination board and thus no longer power the lighter. Any other suggestions on that question? Thanks

[hueyhoolihan]

ya, it's probably toast, but doesn't smell as good.

it could be attributed to a short, but i suspect you might have had (past tense!) a failed "eject" mechanism (corrosion maybe?) in the heating element. for it will continue to heat up until it ejects itself and breaks the circuit's continuity. in order to prevent a reoccurrence of the meltdown, i'm guessing the circuit could be set up with an inline fuse. but i doubt if that's necessary, as it may well be in a circuit that is already fused.

anyway, cigarette lighters have been working in cars for probably a century without in-line fuses. it's just that when they've sat for a while without use and they're old it's sometimes necessary to prematurely pull them out to avoid catastrophe (!).

i've had cause to recently purchase the internals of the cigarette lighter, from Third Gen Automotive, for my '41. but i imagine you'll need to buy the whole darn thing.

they might well have what you need.

[52flthed]

I would put in an in-line buss type fuse on it. I'm not sure if they came with them or not originally. I had something similar happen to my engine compartment light accessory years ago. I bought some older type inline ones on e-bay that look period correct. Looking at your car I think you'd probably appreciate that level of detail. Oh, and by the way I hope you carry a some type of extinguisher, but on a nice car like your's a Halotron type is best as they are designed for A,B and C type of fires but are also designed for an easier cleanup as opposed to the regular extinguishers.

[ford38v8]

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Steve, your thoughts on disconnecting the lighter are correct. There was no short or other malfunction in your system, as the early lighters were not automatic, and relied on manual removal when hot, before the insulation on your wiring melted. (Ask me how I know). New knobs are available from Carpenter.

[Steve Fehniger]

Thank you for the suggestion Huey.

[hueyhoolihan]

Originally Posted by ford38v8

Steve, your thoughts on disconnecting the lighter are correct. There was no short or other malfunction in your system, as the early lighters were not automatic, and relied on manual removal when hot, before the insulation on your wiring melted. (Ask me how I know). New knobs are available from Carpenter.

really?

i can imagine that an early cigarette lighter, like a pre-1920 lighter, may have been offered that did not automatically pop out. but only if it was being held in by the operator's finger.

i actually think that a bimetallic mechanism was used from the outset that acted as a spring as temperature increased and as it pushed the heating element out it broke the circuit that activated it at the same time.

but if there is evidence to the contrary i'd be anxious to read it.

[Steve Fehniger]

Thank you for the additional input. I plan to pursue disconnecting the wire to the lighter as confirmed by Ford38. I located the knob on Carpenter website. The melted knob came from Dennis a number of years ago. Thanks for the kind words about the '35, my Dad and I restored it, first National meet in 2018. I do carry the solid material fire extinguisher by Element and thought I was going to need it today. It is rated for A, B, C and K fires. The Barn comes through again, Thank You.

[JayChicago]

I recall reading a post from Kube saying the only electrical fire he has experienced started at the lighter. When he restores a car the conductor inside wire to lighter is cut back, so appears correct but lighter gets no power.

After reading that, I immediately removed power to the lighter on my car.

[deuce lover]

ford38v8 is correct.Those early lighters were a push in and hold for a few seconds.The 32 3W and 33-34 lighters had a jewel which glowed as the element got got when pushed in.

[Graham Freeman]

I installed a NOS lighter in my 1934 Cabriolet dash.
No way was I going to connect it up live so just coiled the wire up behind the dash.
One less potential hazard.

[tubman]

I don't think a fuse is the answer. Any fuse with enough capacity to allow the lighter to operate normally, probably won't blow if the same amount of current is left going through the circuit longer than normal. A fuse with lesser capacity will blow a soon as you push it in. I know there are such things as "slow blow" fuses, but I don't think that would be the answer either.

[Kube]

Originally Posted by hueyhoolihan

really?

i can imagine that an early cigarette lighter, like a pre-1920 lighter, may have been offered that did not automatically pop out. but only if it was being held in by the operator's finger.

i actually think that a bimetallic mechanism was used from the outset that acted as a spring as temperature increased and as it pushed the heating element out it broke the circuit that activated it at the same time.

but if there is evidence to the contrary i'd be anxious to read it.

Alan is quite correct. The '36 lighter did not pop out.
I have had two fires in the past 50+ years of playing with these old Fords. Both were wiring to the lighter.
During each of my restorations, I would remove the metal connections inside the rubber butt connector that hooked up a lighter. It appeared to be functional but there was zero chance of a fire...

[Tom F OHIO]

My 52 lighter is not hooked up with any wire. It bothered me that it wasn't but now I am glad it isn't and it is going to stay that way. Thanks for all the info on Steves post.

[Steve Fehniger]

I echo the thanks, great input. I was not aware of this risk until I experienced it up close and personal. Great others can learn without the smoke, etc. involved.

[hueyhoolihan]

those 12v and 6v cigarette lighter sockets are very useful for purposes other than lighting cigarettes with a hot coil. just about every car has at least one of them in there. i use mine with an insert that functions as a USB port for charging my phone. there is no inherent risk at all with wiring them up unless you plan to insert a cigarette coil in them and let it corrode such that when it's pushed in it won't pop back out.

be reasonable folks.

[ford38v8]

Huey, Being reasonable is what you’d want a wife to be, but that counts for zilch when you’re looking for informed answers.

[Kube]

Originally Posted by hueyhoolihan

those 12v and 6v cigarette lighter sockets are very useful for purposes other than lighting cigarettes with a hot coil. just about every car has at least one of them in there. i use mine with an insert that functions as a USB port for charging my phone. there is no inherent risk at all with wiring them up unless you plan to insert a cigarette coil in them and let it corrode such that when it's pushed in it won't pop back out.

be reasonable folks.

You are missing the fact that these old lighters do NOT pop out. They were NOT designed to pop out.

[Planojc]

I have a starter solenoid on my 35 and use the lighter as a starter button. When I push it in it grounds the circuit. Its been a while but I did have to modify the lighter to keep it from staying in when pushed.