1932 Ford Chassis without the Reveal.

[PeteVS]

I don't have our '32 frame at hand, but the shape of the very front of the rail, shown in the first picture, doesn't look kosher to me.

[alchemy]

Originally Posted by Mart

it should be easy to judge if they are factory stamped or stamped by someone else after the event. The factory numbers are quite distinctive.

There are new stamps made that are EXACTLY like Ford's numbers. Yes, EXACTLY.

[DavidG]

PeteVS,

You're absolutely right! Looking at that first photo, neither of the horizontal portions of the frame rails taper towards the front like an original. The bottom one is so oversize that you could not possibly install the U-shaped radiator apron between the frame rails.

[Lucky Mike]

DavidG - what does "taper towards the front like an original" mean? Also what does "the bottom one is so oversized" mean? I will post more picture if I know to what you are referring.

I still have the original stamped 1932 commerical truck grill that came on the car when I got it. This stamped grill only came with the 1932 truck.

[DavidG]

From the front of the front cross member, the top and bottom side of the "C" cross section of the frame have a slight taper to them so that at the very front edge of the frame, these top and bottom sides are noticeably narrower than they are at the from cross member.

A fellow barner asked me to look at your thread posted on HAMB, I did so but I did not post a comment as things were already way out of control.

Ford did not use the word "truck" in concert with the word "pickup" in 1932. That's because the pickup was classified as a commercial vehicle along with the panel delivery, station wagon, and later in the model year, the sedan delivery. All of those vehicles have the same 106" wheelbase chassis as the passenger cars with the exception of the number leaves in the rear spring. Ford used the word "truck" solely in reference to the big trucks with either a 131 1/2" or 157" wheelbase. If you have a copy of the 1932 body parts catalogue you will notice this distinction in nomenclature between the pickups and "trucks" such as the one shown in the Ford Archives photo below.

[Lucky Mike]

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Yes, understood on the truck vs. pick up. I think it is the angle of the photo. I will take another.

[Lucky Mike]

Is this what you are talking about?

[sturgis39]

There were a some replies on the Early Ford v8 Club of America. They said that all pickups and cars had the reveal. They posted a picture of Henry stamping one of the first frames and it has the reveal. One reply was kind of hostile. The 32 Forum has the picture of Henry and the general discussion has the hostile comment.

Post 27 on this forum seems to be a different area than what I thought we were discussing. The area I thought we were discussing was at the running boards

[Lucky Mike]

Sturgis39. That picture is of Ford with the first v8, not all 32's were v8's as you know. My car was originally a 4 banger. There has been some what I would consider hostile or bordering on hostile comments. Frankly, I don't understand the hostility. This is my car, I am seeking knowledge. Frankly I don't care if it is original or repo. I don't plan to sell it. I don't need to sell it. I am just trying to sort out several conflicting opinions. I have now spoken to 3 people who have owned 32's without the reveal. That said, I have yet to find what I would consider authoritative proof. If I never do, I don't care, but I will continue to seek.

[DavidG]

While Ford's records indicate that some very early 32 frames differed between those used with fours and those used with V-8s to the extent of different front cross members, why rely on opinions? You can contact the source of authoritative information about Fords, namely the Benson Ford Research Center in Dearborn, MI and request copies of the original engineering drawing and engineering release forms for the chassis frame side rail. The part number is B-5105 for the right side and B-5016 for the left side. That drawing and the accompanying engineering release forms should tell you what changes, if any, were made to the side rails during the course of '32 model production.

[Lucky Mike]

DavidG - AWESOME! Thank you. I will do so indeed. I wish I would have known this before I bought $500.00 worth of books....oh well.

Mike

[Lucky Mike]

DavidG. I have had a couple of exchanges with the research center. It is very exciting stuff! I want to finish my conversation with them before I post all of the details, but for now, I will leave you with this quote (caps added by me). "....however, there was a stamped line following the fender & running board line added to the frame rail AFTER October 13, 1931." Stay tuned!

[Tom Walker]

I am no Model A expert, but is it not more like Model A than V8?

[Mart]

Mike, I'm trying not to be negative, but wouldn't Oct 31 be pre production for a 32? I just had a search on google and one source says the new 4 cylinder engine was put in to production in Nov 32. (In 32's presumably). People had to wait until March for the V8's.

Not conclusive, but a little more info.

Mart.

[Lucky Mike]

No problem Mart, maybe technically, but it would still be a 1932 frame pre-production or production vs. another year (say 1931). Make sense? I will ask my Ford researcher when I get the response.

[DavidG]

That's a bit early given that Ford's records show that the first production part orders to suppliers was for a January, 1932 Job#1, which were subsequently cancelled when the decision was made to delay vehicle production and the public introduction dates based on the availability of production quality V-8 engines (March 10 and 31, respectively). There is usually also a delay of varying amounts of time between when a drawing is made or changed (all noted in the upper right hand corner of the drawing) and when a part is released for production and then a further delay possible before production parts are available because of the time required to create or modify existing tooling. The creation of the dies involved in the production of chassis frame side rails would be a major undertaking time and money wise as would their modification or recreation to create the subject "stamped line".

It will be very interesting (at least to me) to learn what you come up with. The Archives are loaded with '32 parts drawings that never went into production or only into pre-production (for example, the first production V-8 engine, #18-1 was the 243rd one built, but only the first deemed suitable as a "production" engine. That's why the engineering release forms are a necessary adjunct to the drawings as they will indicate which parts were released for production purposes and at what design level those parts were when so released.

Good hunting!

[Lucky Mike]

DavidG. You are a wealth knowledge! The researcher didn't specify "production or pre-production" in the chain, but the context of the entire discussion is the 1932 frame. Initially the researcher was just speaking to me about the concept of the "revealed frame" verses the lip or the flare at the bottom of the frame rail. I clarified that in my follow up questions. I will clarify "pre-production vs. production" as well as I continue to correspond (which is happening slower than I would like). Beyond the obvious, in your opinion what would be the difference between pre-production and production? Meaning if my frame is indeed real and it somehow got out of the factory, what would it be? I definitely see the point on #18-1 being the 243rd built, my question would be, what happened to the 242 previous ones? I will also ask about engineering release form. Thank you for the well wishes. Once I get as far as I think I will get, I will post the email chain between myself and the researcher. Thanks.

[Lucky Mike]

Good morning. A good friend of mine who is familar with my "reveal" quest was in Las Vegas yestrerday with the owner of the SoCal Speed Shop there. He was discussing my frame and the owner said, "I have a friend that has one of those old 32 frames WITHOUT THE REVEAL". He is going to give my buddy his friend's phone number. My friend is going to call him and get pictures and get his story. This is now the 4th person I have spoken to or heard of who says they have "an early 32 Ford frame without the reveal". I will update you all when I speak to him and I hope to hear back from the reserach institute today.

[Bruce Lancaster]

Just for your further reading, I've posted lists of '32 and other early Ford patents on here somewhere. There are several patents relating to production and non-production aspects of the chassis design, none of them unfortunately actually relevant here.
Ford tended to get the patents out after stuff was already in production, but cranking through the patents of Model A--1936 period gives a lot of information on Ford tech thinking.
Ford also had a lot of wild-card patents, planetary tranmissions (not Model T!), pumpless oiling, rear engines and wild chassis designs...I think HF wanted to make sure that the Ford tradition of doing nearly everything differently from the industry at large carried on.

[DavidG]

With regard to your question about the destiny of the first 242 V-8 engines, think of them as test engines for durability purposes (or experimental engines trying out new or different ideas). Normally, they would be test run on equipment designed for that purpose until they failed, torn down to determine the reason for the failure, and either repaired and tested further or scrapped. Several of those pre-production or experimental V-8 engines ended up in a storage building in Greenfield Village in Dearborn and were eventually auctioned off along with other such engines from both before and after 1932 about twenty years ago or so. This was contrary for Ford's standing practice and their survival can likely be attributed to the fact that they had be donated the "The Henry Ford".

Someone earlier commented on GM's sloppy followup regarding the destruction of prototype and pre-production parts and vehicles and implied that Ford might have been similarly lax. It would seem that Ford had a better system as very few pre-production parts or vehicles over the years have survived unless they served a Ford purpose.

It is possible and remains to be determined via the engineering release forms that frame rails made before the reveals were added (which had to be very few given the 1931 date of the change) were released for general production use only on frames destined for commercial vehicles (like some other '32 parts which were changed early in the model year like manually adjustable shock absorbers, for example) rather than scrapped. Hopefully the surviving records will reflect that one way or the other.

Please be patient with the BFRC staff assisting you. They are not necessarily "car" people who have a basic understanding of historic automotive design and manufacturing practices but rather are archivists.

Lastly, no matter what you find at the BFRC, it would advance your case exponentially if one of the four fellows you refer to could come up with some photos of an original frame with flat side rails and all or at least two out of three of the original cross members still riveted in place and not having most of the original holes for the fenders and running boards eliminated, which seems to be the case in the photos of your frame.