6v canister style coils. do they exist?

[hueyhoolihan]

i'm probably opening up myself for a lot of speculation here, but here goes. are there still dedicated 6v canister style coils being made?

i'm running a 6v positive grounded ford (1941) and am installing a "coil conversion kit" designed to dispense with the original coil, for use with the "diver's helmet" distributor, such that one can run with the slightly more modern canister style coil that became popular in the late forties and continued on up up until about the 90s.

researching this over the last couple of days, i've ran into just about every combination of yes, no, maybe and it depends...you can imagine. so what's the consensus here:

are there dedicated 6v coils out there for sale, and are there such things as dedicated 6v and 12v coils and if so what makes them so, and do they work with both positive and negatively grounded electrical systems, and here's the kicker...

how are to be hooked up? is the ignition wire running from the ignition switch to the ballast resistor (if there is still one present) attach to the "-" side of the coil or the "+" side of the coil. as i've read everything from it MUST be one or the other to "it doesn't matter". and the number of contradictions appears to be equal as far as i can tell.

of course, i too have my suspicions, but absolutely no solid evidence or even a reasonable explanation on what to base my suspicion, excepting common sense and quite a bit of research on the polarity of the high-tension coil current and the how and why it is created in one direction as opposed to another. and as a result it is questionable, to me, whether the spark created would be equivalent in all respects if hooked up one way as opposed to the other.

[Kens 36]

Yes. I typically buy mine from Napa, but many auto parts chains have them. The ignition wire goes to the negative terminal, positive to the distributor.

Are you giving up on your e-Fire?

Ken

[hueyhoolihan]

Originally Posted by Kens 36

Yes. I typically buy mine from Napa, but many auto parts chains have them. The ignition wire goes to the negative terminal, positive to the distributor.

Are you giving up on your e-Fire?

Ken

that makes sense to me as the positive battery terminal on my cars with more modern (modern is relative here) coils runs from the positive battery post to the ignition switch and then to the positive terminal on the coil, then out the negative terminal of the coil and finally to the distributor and then usually grounded to the negative terminal of the battery via the distributor body and finally through the engine block.

good question on the E-Fire BTW...haven't given up. quite to the contrary as i plan on trying again and with some confidence this time, as i think i may have found the reason as to why i couldn't get the E-Fire to produce any spark at all. but i've just GOT to isolate this massive misfiring that's slowly increasing as the engine comes up to temperature. (see my new thread on the ballast resistor topic for details on why i have some confidence and will eventually attempt another installation, and maybe very soon indeed).

[tubman]

As to an actual 6 volt coil. I would suggest that a stock 8BA coil or quality replacement would qualify. "Shoebox" Fords and their ilk do not have ballast resistors of any kind and are definitely 6 volt vehicles.

[hueyhoolihan]

Originally Posted by tubman

As to an actual 6 volt coil. I would suggest that a stock 8BA coil or quality replacement would qualify. "Shoebox" Fords and their ilk do not have ballast resistors of any kind and are definitely 6 volt vehicles.

thanks, sounds good, i'll look into that.

[GB SISSON]

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Not an ignition expert, but have run many of our fords on either 6v and 12v. When I choose to run a vehicle on it's original 6v system I always retain the positive ground aspect as well. When I update an old ford to 12v I then also switch to using a negative ground. For the low tension hook up to the coil I always use whatever my ground is to connect to the terminal on the distributor. So negative ground system, negative coil terminal runs to distributor and with a positive ground vehicle the plus terminal on the coil connects to the distributor. Resistor? With 6v I also retain the original resistor if vehicle has one and choose a 6v coil built for 'external resistor'. When converting to 12v I use a bosch or beru blue coil that has an internal resistor.

[torpedo]

Originally Posted by hueyhoolihan

are there dedicated 6v coils out there for sale, and are there such things as dedicated 6v and 12v coils and if so what makes them so, and do they work with both positive and negatively grounded electrical systems, and here's the kicker...

I have a 1933 stock 221ci in my car and I run with the setup you intend to build (diver's helmet, coil conversion kit). As far as canister coil is concerned I run on a BERU ZS 105. They seem however difficult to find and the BERU replacement item (ZS564) is not providing good results. I have since sourced a suitable alternative from Pertronix (Flamethrower 6V high performance 1.5 ohm primary 7.5K ohm secondary). The idea is to source a coil with the highest secondary resistance value to provide best spark
Polarity to the coil must be respected for optimal result.

[hueyhoolihan]

thanks guys! i'll let everyone knows how the "coil conversion kit" turns out and whether or not dispensing with the original Ford helmet head type coils fixed my problem with the car.

[Ken/Alabama]

Originally Posted by hueyhoolihan

thanks guys! i'll let everyone knows how the "coil conversion kit" turns out and whether or not dispensing with the original Ford helmet head type coils fixed my problem with the car.

Having the original coil rebuilt is the best option.

[hueyhoolihan]

Originally Posted by Ken/Alabama

Having the original coil rebuilt is the best option.

yes, i wouldn't be surprised if that were true.

funny thing is that the car was not running when i purchased it. but once i got it running a problem arose. that being that on a cold start the engine ran smoothly, but as it warmed up it started misfiring. and progressively worsened until the car would practically stall at idle and eventually WOULD stall after only about five minutes and then not restart until i waited a few hours for it to cool off. there was no overheating problems with the cooling system, BTW.

i suspected the coil was failing as temps in the engine compartment rose. as i've had similar experiences with rising temps in engine compartments increasing electrical resistance and causing similar problems. so i bought a new coil from one of the usual vintage Ford parts retailers. in fact, i accidentally bought TWO! of them.

and when i installed one the other day, i purposely, as a test, bypassed the ignition system altogether (including any ballast resistor that may or may not have been in the wire to the coil) and ran a wire directly from my 6v battery to the coil. and it made no difference whatsoever. but after stalling out the car will NOT start at all, even when cold. and i suspect i've either burnt out the condenser, points or the coil or any combination of the three. as i think that the battery was probably suppling closer to 7v than 6v.

and so, when i install my "coil conversion kit" complete with new coil and condenser and no need of a ballast resistor we'll see if it fixes the problem or if i've burnt up my points...i guess. which is not as tragic as it might seem because i've got an E-Fire fully electronic distributor in the wings that had, up until recently, failed to work, but a recent revelation has occurred that gives me hope that it will work if and when i install it again, which i plan on doing if this latest test fails for any reason.

cheers!

[JayChicago]

For 6 volt, no resistor, the coil primary must be 1.5 ohm. (as said above by torpedo) That’s all that matters for our little engines.

Good advice from Tubman on a logical source.

Better advice from others to go back to stock. None of the aftermarket stuff offers any improvement in my opinion, but does introduce complications. Stop it! with the Rube Goldberg stuff.

[Sid]

If you are trying to use a Stromberg E-Fire I tried one about 4 years ago and nothing bur trouble. First one from Summit and the car would barely run. When it started it backfired popped and wouldn't go above idle. I even pulled my carbs. off and rebuilt them again. I finally put my old Mallory back in and it ran okay. I sent back to Summit and they sent me another distributor. Put that in and the car ran okay for 1 1/2 summers. On the last day I barely made it up my driveway. I removed the distributor and sent to Clive and told him the problem. In the meantime I put new points in a crab style distributor and installed it and the car runs like a Swiss watch now for 2 years. About 2 months later Clive sent back my dist. and nothing wrong. I banged by head against the wall for days with this problem checking voltage hooking resistor up and unhooking switching carbs.etc. I put the crab in with a Pertronix 6 volt coil and very happy. I have heard there have been issues with the 6 volt Strombergs but I don't know how true. The person that told me about them is happy with his.

[hueyhoolihan]

Originally Posted by Sid

If you are trying to use a Stromberg E-Fire I tried one about 4 years ago and nothing bur trouble. First one from Summit and the car would barely run. When it started it backfired popped and wouldn't go above idle. I even pulled my carbs. off and rebuilt them again. I finally put my old Mallory back in and it ran okay. I sent back to Summit and they sent me another distributor. Put that in and the car ran okay for 1 1/2 summers. On the last day I barely made it up my driveway. I removed the distributor and sent to Clive and told him the problem. In the meantime I put new points in a crab style distributor and installed it and the car runs like a Swiss watch now for 2 years. About 2 months later Clive sent back my dist. and nothing wrong. I banged by head against the wall for days with this problem checking voltage hooking resistor up and unhooking switching carbs.etc. I put the crab in with a Pertronix 6 volt coil and very happy. I have heard there have been issues with the 6 volt Strombergs but I don't know how true. The person that told me about them is happy with his.

got the "coil conversion kit" from one of usual vintage ford parts places today, and you don't get much for your sixty bucks. i'll say that. about three bucks worth of stuff i'd say. must be a couple thousand percent markup on these. OTOH can't be much of a market for them. i mean how many guys out there even owned a "diver's helmet", let alone still has one, and now after 85 years decides that whatever they had, suddenly isn't good enough anymore? ha

anyway, looks like it shouldn't take more than a few minutes to install. i expect most of the time will be spent on scaring up my canister coil...

[tubman]

In 1961 I was racing a '36 Ford with a '41 Merc engine in "D/Altered" class at Minnesota Dragways. The engine had Offenhauser heads and a dual Hi-Rise manifold. When the ignition proved to be the weak point, I cut the old coil apart and used the base, the top I cut off a regular can coil, and some fiberglass and made my own. It worked well and didn't look too bad after some sanding and a fresh paint job.

[Seth Swoboda]

I have not followed your problem in other posts so forgive me if I'm stating something you already know. You must run a resistor in your system as a full 6V will overheat the coil. When the coil overheats, in about 5-10 minutes, it will break down and fail.


I use the Ford 6V coils rebuilt by Skip with the resistor. No problems.

[hueyhoolihan]

Originally Posted by Seth Swoboda

I have not followed your problem in other posts so forgive me if I'm stating something you already know. You must run a resistor in your system as a full 6V will overheat the coil. When the coil overheats, in about 5-10 minutes, it will break down and fail.


I use the Ford 6V coils rebuilt by Skip with the resistor. No problems.

telling me something i think i already know does not offend me, as in most cases i think i know more than i do (ha) and in this case, i assure you, there is no offense taken.

but yes, i think i may have already done that (highlighted in red) with my most recent test! for i connected the negative terminal of my new and fully charged 6v battery directly to the ignition terminal on my "diver's helmet" coil. and, by golly, the car ran well...for about five or ten minutes and then quit running altogether. to be honest i wasn't too surprised, as i knew that the coils were delicate and that voltage was reduced for a purpose once the car was started.

begin anecdote:

i was fortunate, while testing, in that i had not ventured out of the the local "Public Storage" facility where i rent a storage locker to store the car. in fact i had returned to the entrance of the locker and had driven halfway into it before the engine stopped, never to restart.

being by myself there was no way i could push the car the rest of the way into the locker. and was beginning to wonder just how expensive and embarrassing this would be, when it dawned on me that i could put it in first gear and simply push the starter button and the starter would crank the crank and rear wheels would turn and so i sort of creeped the rest of the way into the locker on battery power alone...slick as a whistle!

BTW, the reality is that i'm abandoning the use of the original "diver's helmet" style coil. as it needs a ballast resistor, and am in the process of eliminating that need, by way of installing a "coil conversion kit" that uses a canister coil. and may also be installing an electronic distributor that needs no ballast resistor either.

[torpedo]

you need a resistor if you keep the stock ignition whatever type of coil. If you go for an electronic ignition that's a different setup...

[hueyhoolihan]

Originally Posted by torpedo

you need a resistor if you keep the stock ignition whatever type of coil. If you go for an electronic ignition that's a different setup...

now you've got me second guessing myself...honestly, i'd be very interested in why that should be.

could it have something to do with the points? i say that because i do have to admit i wondered if i damaged the points, not to mention the condenser, in addition to destroying the coil with my latest test.

but maybe tomorrow when i put the "coil conversion kit" in with my 1.5ohm canister coil and the new condenser that comes in the kit, it should start right up. and if it doesn't i'll probably punt, and just go right to the electronic distributor i have waiting in the wings. and hopefully due to some new information i've recently acquired have reason to believe it will actually work this time. so, i've got a plan A and B and even a C, of sorts.

[JayChicago]

Originally Posted by torpedo

you need a resistor if you keep the stock ignition whatever type of coil.

Disagree. Original system is about 1.5 ohms total, resistor plus original coil. A 1.5 ohm coil with no resistor will give same result of 4 amps. Points won’t know the difference.

[tubman]

Originally Posted by tubman

As to an actual 6 volt coil. I would suggest that a stock 8BA coil or quality replacement would qualify. "Shoebox" Fords and their ilk do not have ballast resistors of any kind and are definitely 6 volt vehicles.

I repeat myself from time to time.