New to Model A and in a Pickle

[Chris28SC]

My great uncle restored a 28 Sport Coupe in the 70's. He passed in 1991 and the car has mostly sat since then. A couple years ago, my cousin took it to a restoration shop to get it running again. The motor was stuck, but they were able to get it freed up. They also cleaned and sealed the gas tank and cleaned the radiator. My cousin quickly realized that she could not afford to pay a shop to do all of the work, so it sat for a couple more years. Through a turn of events, I now own the car.

While degreasing the motor to paint, I noticed anti-seize on the head nuts, so I suspected the head had been removed. I grabbed a wrench and the nuts were just snug tight. I pulled the head and found pitting about halfway down the wall of cylinder #2. The other three cylinders all look good. What are options for this? Am I looking a full rebuild? Is the block trash?

[Marshall V. Daut]

You will probably need to have the block re-sleeved and start all over. Piston rings will never seat with pitting that deep in the cylinder. Water from a blown head gasket must have sat at that level for years to cause that much rust pitting. 'Not what you wanted to hear, but you are pretty much looking at a full dismantle and rebuild. Anything short of that will be a disappointment and waste of money.
Marshall

[Ernie Vitucci]

Hello...Marshall is correct if you have several thousand dollars to put into an engine. If not, talk to the two National Model A Clubs, The Model A Restorers Club of America and the Model A Ford Club. Both can be found on line. Ask them for the local club in your area and join. Most clubs have an 'engine guy'. Most clubs will help a new member get their Model A running...even if it is an older tired car or engine. Often this is a workable approach...better than the car sitting year after year and getting worse all the time. Depending on the amount of pitting and a bit of honing of the cylindar wall of that cylindar new rings and a good tune up...The old girl might go to the hardware store, the market, to get a haircut...Saturday Breakfast. Enough to let you decide how much you like the car. Also, an A that is running, is worth more than one that is not running. Give it fresh oil, flush the radiator, get help to adjust the brakes from a club member and begin to make friends with the old girl. You will either fall in love wtih her or you will sell her to someone who will take her under their wing...Just my thoughts, Ernie in Ariona.

[Ernie Vitucci]

Just a second note...My first Model A, a 30 Coupe, purchased when I was 16, in 1963, was originally capable of about 38 miles an hour, flat out. on a downward slope...slower going back up! After a year or so, my self, my dad and and another Model Aer changed to a better engine...I had fallen in love with the car and kept it until I entered the army in May of 68. Finally purchased another, a 31 Tudor in 2005 and I still have her...Ernie still in Arizona.

[Joe K]

If you're into it, you MIGHT tear down this engine and clean up the cylinder with an hone. It won't be like a new engine, but it will run.

You have to remember that it is an experiment, and your result could best be termed "experimental." But with a running engine you can at least move it around.

Best way to characterize this would be a "labor of love." You either like doing this sort of thing and are willing to take the gamble, or you don't.

To be honest there is a lot of possibility to finding a "usable" engine. I myself know of one spare engine in a garage that is left over from a previous Model A Owner who has since graduated to "extended care." The car has been sold but the spare remains. He knows I could use the engine and has pretty much indicated I should take it.

I'm not quite at the point of need to hold him to his wishes.

When you have four engine blocks sitting around, one rebuilt engine on a dolly, and another functional engine in a truck.

Joe K

[J Franklin]

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If the bearings and valves are still good you could sleeve that cylinder only or hone it to the closest oversize and replace one piston and ring set. I had a friend just hone the area of the ridge so the piston didn't catch a ledge and ran his car many miles afterward.

[Chris28SC]

Thanks for the responses. Not what I wanted to hear, but what I expected to hear. My original intention was to get the car running and drivable (already bought a lot of parts), and then worry about making it “pretty”. Car is in relatively good condition for as long as it has been sitting (photos from before i brought it home). I really don’t want it sitting any longer. It also has sentimental value so I would like to get it back on the road.

There is a chapter of MARCA in my area that I had planned to reach out to. Just haven’t done it yet. I’ve only had it for a few weeks.

[Ayers1]

Not a bad looking car! It would definitely be worth trying to hone the 1 cylinder and see how it goes. If you can get it running well enough for short trips you can always look at a rebuild in the future.

[Model A Canuck]

Originally Posted by Chris28SC

Thanks for the responses. Not what I wanted to hear, but what I expected to hear. My original intention was to get the car running and drivable (already bought a lot of parts), and then worry about making it “pretty”. Car is in relatively good condition for as long as it has been sitting (photos from before i brought it home). I really don’t want it sitting any longer. It also has sentimental value so I would like to get it back on the road.

There is a chapter of MARCA in my area that I had planned to reach out to. Just haven’t done it yet. I’ve only had it for a few weeks.

Welcome to the Barn

The rest of the car looks to be in good shape and the cloth is in great shape so that is a bonus now you just have to get the mechanical stuff worked out and you will have a nice running car.Congrats on getting it and keeping it going .MARCA is a great resource and they should be able to help you out.Keep us posted on the progress with the engine rebuild

[mcgarrett]

As others have said, get in touch with your nearest Model A club chapter. You might be surprised what you can come up with as far as a used engine that would work for you until you were ready to spring for a fresh rebuild. On a couple of occasions I needed an engine for a '31 Slant Windshield survivor and didn't want to commit to the expense right away. Through some contacts within the Model A community near me I was able to score a used, but good running take-out engine that I could listen to before I bought it. This actually happened twice for me! Check with the locals and see what pops up.

[Marshall V. Daut]

Can you make out the over-bore piston size stamped into the top of each piston? Take some gritty sandpaper and clean off the top of a piston down to shiny metal. There will be a stamping from 0.010 to 0.125, unless the pistons are still standard - which is a rarity almost 100 years after leaving the factory. If the bore is 0.125" over, there is a chance that the already thin cylinder walls will be further compromised by the pitting. One danger of boring to 0.125" is that any sandcasting pin hole lurking in the metal will be exposed and leak coolant into the cylinder. I have experienced this in two engines that I had bored to 0.125" to clean up the worn cylinder walls. In each case a sandcasting pin hole was discovered, requiring the block to be re-sleeved and bored again. If your engine has the big bore and you hone the cylinder wall, you may open up a can of worms, should a pin hole come to light. As others have said, you have nothing really to lose. Honing will not solve your problem, only mitigate it to some degree. But if a pin hole opens up after honing, you will definitely need to have the block sleeved.
Marshall

[Marshall V. Daut]

By the way, your car looks too nice not to do the right thing with the engine, i.e., spend some long green fixing it. If your car were some rusted farm relic good only for driving through the back 40, just hone the cylinder wall, put everything back together and call it a day. But this car and your great-uncle deserve that you do the right thing and fix the engine properly. Now is the best time to take the next step with the engine partially disassembled.
Marshall

[Chris28SC]

Pistons all have “90” stamped in the top.

[JayJay]

That means 0.090” over bore, and the practical limit is 0.125” (but see Marshall’s notes above). You can run into cooling issues the more over bore you are. If the bearings are in good shape I’d go for sleeving. You will have to pull and disassemble the engine whether you sleeve one or four, so I’d say do all four back to stock bore. Do it once, do it right.

I’m pretty conservative, 0.080” is my limit.

[German guy]

I am a Model A newbie and I am nowhere in the same league as many of the Barn members, but here is my opinion: You have made a good start, but you now need to decide what you want to do with the car. You can get that engine running as is and it will probably put out enough power to get you through parades and short flat-land trips....or even hilly terrain if you master double clutching. It will get plenty of oooo's and awwww's in parking lots....and crowds wanting to ask you a million questions about it. It will probably break down with decreasing frequency as you work your way through what needs to be done. ALL without spending much money!



Until I bought my A 3 years ago, I had only owned classics from the mid-50s-60s, and they were exclusively British sports cars (5 of them). Here is what I have found. There is NO END to what can be done to make them a 'better car'...no matter how great you thought they were when you bought them. You will initially buy carpet and cut it yourself to fit...and a year later splurge to have it professionally done. You will buy silicon shielded wire and replace that old stripped wire that keeps sparking...and then spring for a new wiring harness a year later because what you did no longer meets your aesthetic standards. You will THINK that you are happy with the 8.1:1 compression head on that XKE until you drive a friend's XKE with the 10:1 Gold Head and deviate from 'original' to replace yours and go with the higher compression pistons while you are at it. Those standard wheels make you happy...until you see one toodling around town with the optional wire wheels. You love your '69 series 1.5 until you see a series 1.0 with the snappy toggle switches instead of your ugly rocker switches that are also found on British Leyland's lower forms of automobile life such as MGs and Triumphs. You LOVE you car until you see one with matching numbers which yours does not have.



Even though the A is by far the most user-friendly classic around...easy for an amateur to work on (I am an academic and get blisters sharpening a pencil)...and parts are widely available...you can put countless hours and money into it to make it 'perfect'....and never feel that you are quite there. The trick is to decide what your goal is. Do you want a 'show car'? Do you want a toy that you can roll out every couple of weeks when the sun is shining and take for a trip around the block? Do you want to take a cross-country tour with it? Do want a toy that you can tinker with in your free time and feel 'connected' to your car...or do you want to send it out to a professional for a spark plug replacement? Making yourself happy with your A does not NEED to mean becoming an addict.


Those sage words said...as soon as my barn rises above freezing temps I will be removing my wheels, having them sand blasted and professionally repainted (everyone else thinks that they look fine!)...and then putting new tires on because...you know...there is no point in having immaculate wheels when the tires are from two different brands and worn......dropping the oil pan because the exposed beads of silicon sealer used by the last guy who did so bother me when I look at them and a bit of oil seeps out forcing me to wipe up a drop or two every few weeks...and then install the engine side pans that look so neat!....NONE of which should be essential to my ability to enjoy the car...and nobody will notice ANY of it other than me! Car addiction is a cruel master!

[nkaminar]

I would not try and run that engine. As others have said, either rebuild it or get another engine that is in good shape. A used engine in good shape run $500 up. A new engine from Burtz will run about $5,000 plus the cost to put it together.

Nice looking car. It is a shame that it sat for so long and that the engine was ruined.

[ronn]

I agree with nk, grab a used engine and change it out. at 500. you can try more then once and be ahead of the game.......... great speed practice on flipping engines too!

[CT Jack]

I also agree with nk Neil. I suggest you remove the pan and clean it. If there are chips of babbit within the sludge in the pan you might want to consider not going any further. This would mean the bearings need replacing and it's time for a rebuild. If there is no sign of babbit chips, clean and install the pan. Then install a new head gasket, check to see if the head is flat, and install head. Start the engine and drive your A for a while.
Consider replacing the engine with a Burtz as it will eliminate many of the undesireable flaws that exist within the stock A engine.

[deuce5wndw]

I would go the cheap way first. Rering it with a good honing. What's the worst that could happen it would have some blowby. I did that with lots worse cylinders in my young and broke days yes I can still remember that far back!

[Kurt in NJ]

It’s far enough down in the bore that it may not make much difference,put the head back on and run it ,the rings could be stuck too and take a while to free up, mix some marvel mystery oil in the gas and oil .

The engine in the picture just got a used piston,was driven over 100k more with minimal oil consumption,sometimes it is surprising!