Non ethanol gas

[Gene1949]

Been thinking about this for a while. A quick question for the true believers in "non-ethanol" gas.
What is the anti knock chemical used? How does it affect the components of the fuel system?

[The Art Doctor]

Technically the ethanol is anti-knock at 110 octane by itself that is why its run in race cars with high compression. For non-ethanol fuels common "rocket fuel" additives back in the day were benzene, toluene and xylene which all are around 100-120 octane individually. When they were cheap guys would add a gallon of them to the tank of regular to make high-test in areas where it was not available. Now toluene is regulated and hard to find and xylene is over $25 a gallon so its just cheaper to buy premium from the pump rather than mix your own. The octane boosters in a small bottle are nothing more than benzene (naphtha) and a touch of xylene at a huge mark-up.

[mrtexas]

Originally Posted by The Art Doctor

Technically the ethanol is anti-knock at 110 octane by itself that is why its run in race cars with high compression. For non-ethanol fuels common "rocket fuel" additives back in the day were benzene, toluene and xylene which all are around 100-120 octane individually. When they were cheap guys would add a gallon of them to the tank of regular to make high-test in areas where it was not available. Now toluene is regulated and hard to find and xylene is over $25 a gallon so its just cheaper to buy premium from the pump rather than mix your own. The octane boosters in a small bottle are nothing more than benzene (naphtha) and a touch of xylene at a huge mark-up.

All modern gasoline has benzen, toluene, and xylene in it. Althought the benzene has been legislated out and refiners remove it intentionally. One major refining process is catalytic reforming to convert the cyclohexane in distilled naphtha to BTX. The 65 octane naphtha is converted to 95-105 octane reformate. Have you heard of chevron's advert of "our gas has platformate"? Yup, chevron's version of catalytic reforming is called platforming and makes platformate(yield of 75%). Refinery I worked in had 1/3 of capacity in reforming. 32 years as chemical engineer in XOM refinery.

[The Art Doctor]

Originally Posted by mrtexas

All modern gasoline has benzen, toluene, and xylene in it. Althought the benzene has been legislated out and refiners remove it intentionally. One major refining process is catalytic reforming to convert the cyclohexane in distilled naphtha to BTX. The 65 octane naphtha is converted to 95-105 octane reformate. Have you heard of chevron's advert of "our gas has platformate"? Yup, chevron's version of catalytic reforming is called platforming and makes platformate(yield of 75%). Refinery I worked in had 1/3 of capacity in reforming. 32 years as chemical engineer in XOM refinery.

Nice to hear from someone in the industry. Nearly all my graduate chemistry was focused on materials longevity and identification, so I only know enough about gasoline and the science behind it to be a dangerous hobbyist. The big brain folks certainly can do some amazing stuff with those molecules in the labs.

[hueyhoolihan]

agreed as to previous post.

but to put it another way...

octane is added to gasoline to suppress knocking (detonation) in both ethanol and non-ethanol gasoline, AFAIK. however, the amount of octane added to base non-ethanol gasolines is greater than that added to base ethanol gasolines. most likely because ethanol alone has a pretty high octane rating.

[Gene1949]

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Very informative replies, thank you gentlemen. However, they don’t address the basic question. The toxicity (just handling those chemicals) is well known, hence the regulation and pricing. Increasing the amount used to achieve the anti-detonation characteristics of fuel destroys (I think) the old style pre-ethanol carb and fuel pump kits. We also know what using ethanol fuel does to the pre-ethanol carbs, pumps and hosing

My belief the “true believers” having so much trouble with their fuel systems is because they refuse to upgrade to 30R7 hosing and buying rebuild kits (fuel pumps and carbs) that are ethanol compliant.

How I know; when I bought the 49 40 years ago drove it home and ran great. Soon thereafter I started having fuel issues. Crap in the carb and a destroyed fuel pump. After a skull session with the local parts guy, he put me onto the idea my entire fuel system needed an upgrade to ethanol compliant kits and cleaning out the fuel tank. Problems solved and been running whatever came out of the local gas pumps since.

My story and I'm sticking to it

[hueyhoolihan]

Originally Posted by Gene1949

Very informative replies, thank you gentlemen. However, they don’t address the basic question. The toxicity (just handling those chemicals) is well known, hence the regulation and pricing. Increasing the amount used to achieve the anti-detonation characteristics of fuel destroys (I think) the old style pre-ethanol carb and fuel pump kits. We also know what using ethanol fuel does to the pre-ethanol carbs, pumps and hosing

My belief the “true believers” having so much trouble with their fuel systems is because they refuse to upgrade to 30R7 hosing and buying rebuild kits (fuel pumps and carbs) that are ethanol compliant.

How I know; when I bought the 49 40 years ago drove it home and ran great. Soon thereafter I started having fuel issues. Crap in the carb and a destroyed fuel pump. After a skull session with the local parts guy, he put me onto the idea my entire fuel system needed an upgrade to ethanol compliant kits and cleaning out the fuel tank. Problems solved and been running whatever came out of the local gas pumps since.

My story and I'm sticking to it

sounds reasonable to me!

i didn't go to any great lengths in updating my fueling system, but i did replace most of it from the firewall forward. the pump was a mess and i replaced that along with the carb, but i, for the most part, attributed the damage and failures to age. but i'm ready to entertain the possibility that it was all due to the ethanol. ...if figure i can never have too many things to blame my troubles on. ha

[ScubaChief60]

Allow me to weigh in here with a question.

When I was rebuilding my 1935 21 stud 85HP a few years back... I read that there were three components that I needed to upgrade so that I could use either Ethanol or pure gasoline. I made these upgrades as follows:

[The parts I replaced with ethanol resistant ones were]
#1 - the flexible hose that connects the metal fuel line to the mechanical fuel pump,
#2 - the mechanical fuel pump diaphragm,
#3 - my Holley Model 94 carburetor accelerator pump.

Even with these upgrades I have used nothing but pure gasoline... so here is my question. Are my upgrades sufficient for the use of ethanol and pros and cons of ethanol use over pure?

Thanks all!

[Gene1949]

Originally Posted by ScubaChief60

Allow me to weigh in here with a question.

When I was rebuilding my 1935 21 stud 85HP a few years back... I read that there were three components that I needed to upgrade so that I could use either Ethanol or pure gasoline. I made these upgrades as follows:

[The parts I replaced with ethanol resistant ones were]
#1 - the flexible hose that connects the metal fuel line to the mechanical fuel pump,
#2 - the mechanical fuel pump diaphragm,
#3 - my Holley Model 94 carburetor accelerator pump.

Even with these upgrades I have used nothing but pure gasoline... so here is my question. Are my upgrades sufficient for the use of ethanol and pros and cons of ethanol use over pure?

Thanks all!

I think you are good to go IF you cleaned out the fuel tank as well.

[ScubaChief60]

Yes... the original tank was was beyond repair... so replaced it with a new one Thanks!

[ford38v8]

Originally Posted by ScubaChief60

Allow me to weigh in here with a question.

When I was rebuilding my 1935 21 stud 85HP a few years back... I read that there were three components that I needed to upgrade so that I could use either Ethanol or pure gasoline. I made these upgrades as follows:

[The parts I replaced with ethanol resistant ones were]
#1 - the flexible hose that connects the metal fuel line to the mechanical fuel pump,
#2 - the mechanical fuel pump diaphragm,
#3 - my Holley Model 94 carburetor accelerator pump.

Even with these upgrades I have used nothing but pure gasoline... so here is my question. Are my upgrades sufficient for the use of ethanol and pros and cons of ethanol use over pure?

Thanks all!

#4 - tank to firewall fuel line (rust-out)
#5 - fiber fuel pump valves (sticky)
#6 - fiber carb needle valves (sticky)
#7 - 4 oz of Stabyl Marine in every tank (puts a layer of oil atop the fuel to prevent absorption of moisture)

[Gene1949]

One other story. My ’69 RS/SS big block brand X car with a Demon carb (Holly knockoff). Bought a Berry Grant kit. Ran great for a couple of years. One afternoon flooded out at every stop sign. Replaced the gaskets, generally typical Holly problem. Pulled the primary and secondary float valves and the little “O” ring seals on the needle and seat assembly had shrunk and deteriorated.

[pistonbroke]

I've taken many carb apart and seen the destruction Ethanol does if left over the winter or longer. There is a reson they only sell non Ethanol at marinas. Take a junk carb and fill the bowl wth Ethanol then put it away somewhere safe for 4 to 6 months and pull it apart. I think you will be amazed. Exhaust is another isue. Did you ever notice all the water trickeling out of the car in front of yous tail pipe at the stoplight ? That a result of Ethanol and is a major polution going down the storm drains. It also causes you exaust to rot out much sooner. There are many articles writen about the good and bad effects of Ethanol over the years and I choose not to run it in my vintage or small engines. Tim

[cas3]

I run any any old pump gas all summer, but I do try to buy pure gas on the last few fill ups before winter. Never use ethanol in the chain saws.

[totto]

I run "recreation fuel"(no ethanol) in my '34 and '57 and I have no fuel problems. Fuel is more $$ but vehicles run GREAT. Get that "corn " out of the fuel!!!

[19Fordy]

Where does one buy "recreation fuel"?

[mcgarrett]

Originally Posted by 19Fordy

Where does one buy "recreation fuel"?

I believe all Buc-ees locations sell it...pure gasoline; no ethanol.

[FortyNiner]

Originally Posted by 19Fordy

Where does one buy "recreation fuel"?

It will vary by local practice but outdoor power users - boaters and off road equipment in particular - is a good place to start.

[hueyhoolihan]

Originally Posted by FortyNiner

It will vary by local practice but outdoor power users - boaters and off road equipment in particular - is a good place to start.

our local marina sells non-ethanol ga$ to the public. you can drive to the Marina. no need to sail in or anything. just bring your 10 gallon can, walk into the harbor masters office and tell them you want some gasoline. a pleasant maintenance man will soon arrive and take you to the pumps and you can buy as much gas as you want at about 5-6 bucks a gallon.

[kurt v]

I'M in sc most gas stations sell it at the pumps along with the other junk.