The Ford Barn

Elcastor · 12-02-2013, 02:36 PM

If Ford continued to upgrade the Model A, then I must be thinking about downgrading it.

I have a Model A that apparently was "upgraded" probably when a replacement motor was put in it. By that I mean that it has the single plate clutch, the 2 tooth steering column, the one piece brake shaft, etc. The vehicle was manufactured October 10, 1928, and all those items would need to be changed to the older versions.

I have thought about entering it in the Restorers Class Judging at the MAFCA Nation Meet in Puyallup, WA, which is why I am think about doing this.

What are your thoughts on doing this? Am I making the vehicle less drivable, harder to maintain, etc., or worse yet spending a lot of money on changes that will not make it a better car.

On a related question, is there anyone near Oregon that can resurface the multi-disc clutch plates?

Thanks for your thoughts and advice!

BRENT in 10-uh-C · 12-02-2013, 03:03 PM

Sure, why not. I honestly see no reason to change back to a multiple disc clutch, but outside of that, making the other changes is not a problem. The biggest thing I think you should decide is are you doing this for your own enjoyment and betterment of your car, --or are you doing this to gain a prize?

Studying the JS is really educational and you should make a personal notebook that goes with the JS. It is really fun to read a paragraph in the JS, then look at your own car to see how it applies. Then make detailed notes in your notebook regarding finishes and design details. Once the Chapter has been covered completely, you can make yourself a punch list of what items need to be addressed.

29Cabriolet · 12-02-2013, 03:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BRENT in 10-uh-C

... are you doing this for your own enjoyment and betterment of your car, --or are you doing this to gain a prize?

Therein lies the answer

DougVieyra · 12-02-2013, 03:57 PM

One of the things that Edsel Ford did in 'Down-Sizing" his Lincoln, was to bring as many of the Lincoln's premium features as possible to the 'New Ford'. One of those premium features was the Multiple-disc clutch, with it's many discs. It was thought then (and it may be so now) that it was a superior clutch system to the single disc clutch. And at the time it did seem so.

However, what was missing from the Lincoln, was the chauffeur that went along with the Lincoln. The chauffeur did much more than sit around waiting for the owner to need a driver. In the chauffeur's off-driving time, he spent his time (besides washing the car) MAINTAINING the car. The was really his primary job besides the actual driving. So the complex and 'fussy' nature of the multiple-disc clutch was seldom a problem.

So, beside the need to economize (more complex means more expensive) on the cost of making the New Ford Car, Ford could reduce the extra maintenance required to keep the multiple-disc clutch operating properly.

Many of Ford's improvements were the results of feed-back from dealers and the Service Field. However, a great many of Ford's many changes were to make the car less-costly to produce. It must be remember that as sole (or nearly so) owner of the Ford Motor Company, he pretty well did everything as he felt 'best'. His primary goal was to produce a car of quality, endurance and ease of maintenance. He then priced the car at a figure that he felt was 'good value' to the customer.

After all the 'bugs' had shaken out in the first six months, it was discovered that it cost more to produce the car than was gotten in it's sale price. So some 'adjustments' had to be made to make the car profitable. Many of the changes that occurred during the four year production of the Ford Model A, continued to be cost-cutting, as well as true 'improvements'.

Fred K-OR · 12-03-2013, 11:29 AM

I think the question is what do you want. You need to decide.

Kevin in NJ · 12-02-2013, 03:16 PM

Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)

I believe the multi disk clutch was smoother in operation but was not as reliable in daily service. If I remember correctly, since it is not an oil bath clutch it does not clear the dust well and starts messing up. It may also be more difficult to be set up properly.

It may be an upgrade on your car and the down side is no big deal if you do not drive it thousands of miles a year.

Not 100% sure of this, but that is what I am recalling. NOS parts are pretty cheap since no one uses them.

Maybe someone will chime in with experience.

Purdy Swoft · 12-02-2013, 05:45 PM

I would keep the up grades . In the past the model A guys that i've known avoided the multiple disk clutch and early brake features. It just made good sense .

glenn in camino · 12-02-2013, 08:38 PM

My restored 6/1/28 tudor has all the 28 features and everything works fine.

DougVieyra · 12-03-2013, 03:03 AM

Along about 1967 I owned an original, low mileage, October 1928 Fordor Sedan that had many of the early features. Listening to what others were doing and had done to their early Model A's due to a number of issues, I too followed the collected wisdom of 40 years of experience in maintaining and driving the Ford Model A.

Following the custom of the time, I sawed off my engine's front frame (solid) mount and installed the later (Ford recommended) engine mount. When the time came, I also replaced a troublesome multiple disc clutch with the "New and Improved" single disc clutch. I also replaced my Able starter with a Bendix starter, and the list went on. All of these changes were guided by the instructions found in the Ford Service Bulletins.

So, following the instructions in the SERVICE BULLETINS, I did "Up Grade" my Model A. I was driving this car, not 'Showing' it. So any changes that improved driving and maintenance were of interest to me.

Today, however, my December 1928 Phaeton remains as it came from the factory/dealer in 1928. But by the end of 1928, most all of the early problems and short-comings had been solved and by the end of 1928 Ford produced a car that I felt need no further changing or modifications. So I felt no need for further 'up grades'.

Mike V. Florida · 12-03-2013, 03:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DougVieyra

So, following the instructions in the SERVICE BULLETINS, I did "Up Grade" my Model A.

Tricky question. Comparing the car and driving of the time, and the car as a collector item many years later.

If the Service bulletins said something like "When the car comes in and even if the part xxx works fine, you need to replace it with the newer version yyy" then yes I believe you upgraded your A in accordance with the bulletins.

But, if the bulletins said something like "When the car comes in with a problem with xxx, and xxx is no longer available new, here is what you do to replace it with yyy. And if your xxx part was not in need of repair, then no, you just changed it.

Fine line, yea

Roadster62 · 12-03-2013, 04:28 AM

The Multi Disk clutch was used in most dirt track race cars in the 1930ss and 1940's with the flywheel turned down to just over the outer disk diameter. Was this for foot room or was it a better mechanical feature at the time? Every once in a while I have a desire to have a copy of the Judging Standards, can a non member buy a copy? Bob

Mike V. Florida · 12-03-2013, 05:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Roadster62

Every once in a while I have a desire to have a copy of the Judging Standards, can a non member buy a copy? Bob

Yes, anyone can buy the restoration and judging book.

Look here

Roadster62 · 12-03-2013, 08:54 AM

FIRST time I've ever seen something advertized in AFGHAN dollars, what is that all about? Bob

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mike V. Florida

Yes, anyone can buy the restoration and judging book.

Look here

MikeK · 12-03-2013, 09:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Roadster62

FIRST time I've ever seen something advertized in AFGHAN dollars, what is that all about? Bob

For 40 US dollars you get the afghan. Here it is:

Purdy Swoft · 12-03-2013, 11:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Roadster62

The Multi Disk clutch was used in most dirt track race cars in the 1930ss and 1940's with the flywheel turned down to just over the outer disk diameter. Was this for foot room or was it a better mechanical feature at the time? Every once in a while I have a desire to have a copy of the Judging Standards, can a non member buy a copy? Bob

The cut down multiple disk flywheel was used because it was much lighter.A light flywheel doesn't increase horsepower but GREATLY increases throttle response and acceleration. Next to a high compression head, a lighter flywheel makes the most noticeable improvement in throttle response and acceleration of any other mod that I have used. A lighter flywheel makes life easier for the rear main bearing.

Elcastor · 12-03-2013, 09:32 AM

Thanks everyone for your thoughts and advice. I do appreciate it, and it helps sort out what I will do. You can not buy good advice like is available here on the Ford Barn, especially for someone that is out of the USA and does not have a local club to draw advice and help from. I hope to see all of you in Puyallup, WA. at the MAFCA National Meet.

Ben

John LaVoy · 12-03-2013, 11:17 AM

When Brent said the decision of what are you going to do with the car is yours. Years ago I was an avid show car person and my Model A phaeton was bone stock! But over the years I have moved into the driving portion of the hobby. Part of the reason I started doing the Model A Times was to show people what they could do, with out destroying the car, that would make them a little more reliable and enjoyable on long drives. The sedan we built up for the long tours will run all day at highway speeds but is still an original Model A engine and chassis. While some of the "up grades" would kick it out of being judged I had made the decision to enjoy it for the drive. My mantra is "It's the Journey....Not the Destination!" But with all that said I've chosen to "un-improve the phaeton and enter it to be judge in a couple of years.

But the decision is yours, decide how you want to be involved in the hobby and support it with gusto. If you are going to show your car do so, but also become a judge assist with the judging at the meet. Help the hobby grow and thrive!

al's28/33 · 12-03-2013, 12:23 PM

I like the idea of keeping my "A" the way it was built. 7 tooth steering, powerhouse generator, fan shroud and drum tail light. When I got it, I added the mitchell overdrive and 30 amp alternator thinking I was going to speed down the 101. Then a few close calls with folks pulling out in front of me last minute made me think, why is all the speed needed if I still have mechanical brakes ?? Why do I need to keep up with highway traffic ?
So I removed all my upgrades, went back to stock and now cruise down the Alameda or El Camino Real for my Sunday drives. The slower you go in an "A" the more time spent behind the wheel and I love to hear that engine purr and sputter.

DougVieyra · 12-03-2013, 01:09 PM

Al, I must congratulate you ! You have stumbled onto something that, I think, others will appreciate after a few decades (or earlier) of driving their Ford Model A.

One of the things that I found surprising on the Ford Barn Forum, is the large number of people who have discarded a great number of the new 'improvements' that have emerged in the last couple of decades. Things like, upper dist. plate / modern points-condenser, Heat Shield for the exhaust manifold, alternator, etc. It seems that, for many at least, after experiencing some of these new 'improvements' for some years (or sooner), that the improvements are not all that (if any) much better than the original Ford Motor Company version. And there seems to be a growing number of experienced Model A drivers, who, like you, are dumping the 'improvements' and are reverting back to basics - the Model A as Edsel & Henry built it.

Some of us, like me, compromise and have 'one of each' - my bone-stock '28 Phaeton makes me happy and quite satisfied with the Ford/Edsel car - AND my late '31 Dlx Coupe, with it's Electronic Ignition, Stromberg 97 Carb. 6 volt Alternator, 6-blade plastic fan, Mitchel Over-Drive, etc. I love and drive them both with equal joy and satisfaction.

Purdy Swoft · 12-03-2013, 01:26 PM

Its not so much speed but in many cases its driveability. Hill climbing ability, better brakes and ease of repair when needed make a huge difference. Ease of locating parts at a more reasonable price is another factor. Not necessarily for driving at high speed, but creeping along on the highways is a good way to get rear ended and possibly killed in the process. With a few common sense mods that mostly don't even show, I can still drive slow on the back roads and listen to it chick ah lunk or I can have the power to get out of the way on the main roads. We are lucky that model A's are still in some cases legal to be driven on state roads. Who knows how long this will go on if old cars continue to be involved in fatal accidents and be in the way of traffic.

12-02-2013, 02:36 PM	#1
Elcastor Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2010 Location: Oregon and Baja Mexico Posts: 617	Downgrading my Model A If Ford continued to upgrade the Model A, then I must be thinking about downgrading it. I have a Model A that apparently was "upgraded" probably when a replacement motor was put in it. By that I mean that it has the single plate clutch, the 2 tooth steering column, the one piece brake shaft, etc. The vehicle was manufactured October 10, 1928, and all those items would need to be changed to the older versions. I have thought about entering it in the Restorers Class Judging at the MAFCA Nation Meet in Puyallup, WA, which is why I am think about doing this. What are your thoughts on doing this? Am I making the vehicle less drivable, harder to maintain, etc., or worse yet spending a lot of money on changes that will not make it a better car. On a related question, is there anyone near Oregon that can resurface the multi-disc clutch plates? Thanks for your thoughts and advice! __________________ Ben Purkey Mexico and the Pacific NW http://www.martin-parry.com/

12-02-2013, 03:03 PM	#2
BRENT in 10-uh-C Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Eastern Tennessee Posts: 11,972	Re: Downgrading my Model A Sure, why not. I honestly see no reason to change back to a multiple disc clutch, but outside of that, making the other changes is not a problem. The biggest thing I think you should decide is are you doing this for your own enjoyment and betterment of your car, --or are you doing this to gain a prize? Studying the JS is really educational and you should make a personal notebook that goes with the JS. It is really fun to read a paragraph in the JS, then look at your own car to see how it applies. Then make detailed notes in your notebook regarding finishes and design details. Once the Chapter has been covered completely, you can make yourself a punch list of what items need to be addressed. __________________ . BRENT in 10-uh-C . www.model-a-ford.com ...(...Finally Updated!! ) .

12-02-2013, 03:57 PM	#4
DougVieyra Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2012 Location: Eureka, California Posts: 1,733	Re: Downgrading my Model A One of the things that Edsel Ford did in 'Down-Sizing" his Lincoln, was to bring as many of the Lincoln's premium features as possible to the 'New Ford'. One of those premium features was the Multiple-disc clutch, with it's many discs. It was thought then (and it may be so now) that it was a superior clutch system to the single disc clutch. And at the time it did seem so. However, what was missing from the Lincoln, was the chauffeur that went along with the Lincoln. The chauffeur did much more than sit around waiting for the owner to need a driver. In the chauffeur's off-driving time, he spent his time (besides washing the car) MAINTAINING the car. The was really his primary job besides the actual driving. So the complex and 'fussy' nature of the multiple-disc clutch was seldom a problem. So, beside the need to economize (more complex means more expensive) on the cost of making the New Ford Car, Ford could reduce the extra maintenance required to keep the multiple-disc clutch operating properly. Many of Ford's improvements were the results of feed-back from dealers and the Service Field. However, a great many of Ford's many changes were to make the car less-costly to produce. It must be remember that as sole (or nearly so) owner of the Ford Motor Company, he pretty well did everything as he felt 'best'. His primary goal was to produce a car of quality, endurance and ease of maintenance. He then priced the car at a figure that he felt was 'good value' to the customer. After all the 'bugs' had shaken out in the first six months, it was discovered that it cost more to produce the car than was gotten in it's sale price. So some 'adjustments' had to be made to make the car profitable. Many of the changes that occurred during the four year production of the Ford Model A, continued to be cost-cutting, as well as true 'improvements'.

12-03-2013, 11:29 AM	#5
Fred K-OR Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Stayton, Oregon Posts: 3,806	Re: Downgrading my Model A I think the question is what do you want. You need to decide. __________________ Fred Kroon 1929 Std Coupe 1929 Huckster

12-02-2013, 03:16 PM	#6
Kevin in NJ Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: South East NJ Posts: 3,398	Re: Downgrading my Model A Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements) I believe the multi disk clutch was smoother in operation but was not as reliable in daily service. If I remember correctly, since it is not an oil bath clutch it does not clear the dust well and starts messing up. It may also be more difficult to be set up properly. It may be an upgrade on your car and the down side is no big deal if you do not drive it thousands of miles a year. Not 100% sure of this, but that is what I am recalling. NOS parts are pretty cheap since no one uses them. Maybe someone will chime in with experience.

12-02-2013, 05:45 PM	#7
Purdy Swoft Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Alabama Posts: 8,099	Re: Downgrading my Model A I would keep the up grades . In the past the model A guys that i've known avoided the multiple disk clutch and early brake features. It just made good sense .

12-02-2013, 08:38 PM	#8
glenn in camino Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Camino, CA. Posts: 3,086	Re: Downgrading my Model A My restored 6/1/28 tudor has all the 28 features and everything works fine.

12-03-2013, 03:03 AM	#9
DougVieyra Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2012 Location: Eureka, California Posts: 1,733	Re: Downgrading my Model A Along about 1967 I owned an original, low mileage, October 1928 Fordor Sedan that had many of the early features. Listening to what others were doing and had done to their early Model A's due to a number of issues, I too followed the collected wisdom of 40 years of experience in maintaining and driving the Ford Model A. Following the custom of the time, I sawed off my engine's front frame (solid) mount and installed the later (Ford recommended) engine mount. When the time came, I also replaced a troublesome multiple disc clutch with the "New and Improved" single disc clutch. I also replaced my Able starter with a Bendix starter, and the list went on. All of these changes were guided by the instructions found in the Ford Service Bulletins. So, following the instructions in the SERVICE BULLETINS, I did "Up Grade" my Model A. I was driving this car, not 'Showing' it. So any changes that improved driving and maintenance were of interest to me. Today, however, my December 1928 Phaeton remains as it came from the factory/dealer in 1928. But by the end of 1928, most all of the early problems and short-comings had been solved and by the end of 1928 Ford produced a car that I felt need no further changing or modifications. So I felt no need for further 'up grades'. Last edited by DougVieyra; 12-03-2013 at 03:23 AM.

12-03-2013, 04:28 AM	#11
Roadster62 Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Ridgefield, Ct Posts: 3,449	Re: Downgrading my Model A The Multi Disk clutch was used in most dirt track race cars in the 1930ss and 1940's with the flywheel turned down to just over the outer disk diameter. Was this for foot room or was it a better mechanical feature at the time? Every once in a while I have a desire to have a copy of the Judging Standards, can a non member buy a copy? Bob __________________ They don't have to run to be enjoyed. I'm here to enjoy the hobby, and enjoy the cars no matter what they look like. Most of the worlds problems are electrical.

12-03-2013, 09:32 AM	#16
Elcastor Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2010 Location: Oregon and Baja Mexico Posts: 617	Re: Downgrading my Model A Thanks everyone for your thoughts and advice. I do appreciate it, and it helps sort out what I will do. You can not buy good advice like is available here on the Ford Barn, especially for someone that is out of the USA and does not have a local club to draw advice and help from. I hope to see all of you in Puyallup, WA. at the MAFCA National Meet. Ben __________________ Ben Purkey Mexico and the Pacific NW http://www.martin-parry.com/

12-03-2013, 11:17 AM	#17
John LaVoy Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Rocklin, CA Posts: 1,219	Re: Downgrading my Model A When Brent said the decision of what are you going to do with the car is yours. Years ago I was an avid show car person and my Model A phaeton was bone stock! But over the years I have moved into the driving portion of the hobby. Part of the reason I started doing the Model A Times was to show people what they could do, with out destroying the car, that would make them a little more reliable and enjoyable on long drives. The sedan we built up for the long tours will run all day at highway speeds but is still an original Model A engine and chassis. While some of the "up grades" would kick it out of being judged I had made the decision to enjoy it for the drive. My mantra is "It's the Journey....Not the Destination!" But with all that said I've chosen to "un-improve the phaeton and enter it to be judge in a couple of years. But the decision is yours, decide how you want to be involved in the hobby and support it with gusto. If you are going to show your car do so, but also become a judge assist with the judging at the meet. Help the hobby grow and thrive!

12-03-2013, 12:23 PM	#18
al's28/33 Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: Redwood City, CA Posts: 1,681	Re: Downgrading my Model A I like the idea of keeping my "A" the way it was built. 7 tooth steering, powerhouse generator, fan shroud and drum tail light. When I got it, I added the mitchell overdrive and 30 amp alternator thinking I was going to speed down the 101. Then a few close calls with folks pulling out in front of me last minute made me think, why is all the speed needed if I still have mechanical brakes ?? Why do I need to keep up with highway traffic ? So I removed all my upgrades, went back to stock and now cruise down the Alameda or El Camino Real for my Sunday drives. The slower you go in an "A" the more time spent behind the wheel and I love to hear that engine purr and sputter. __________________ 1928 "A" Phaeton (mid year with many early features) 1933 "V8" Closed-Cab Pickup Truck (originally a Model B, 4 Cylinder dating to May, 1933)

12-03-2013, 01:09 PM	#19
DougVieyra Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2012 Location: Eureka, California Posts: 1,733	Re: Downgrading my Model A Al, I must congratulate you ! You have stumbled onto something that, I think, others will appreciate after a few decades (or earlier) of driving their Ford Model A. One of the things that I found surprising on the Ford Barn Forum, is the large number of people who have discarded a great number of the new 'improvements' that have emerged in the last couple of decades. Things like, upper dist. plate / modern points-condenser, Heat Shield for the exhaust manifold, alternator, etc. It seems that, for many at least, after experiencing some of these new 'improvements' for some years (or sooner), that the improvements are not all that (if any) much better than the original Ford Motor Company version. And there seems to be a growing number of experienced Model A drivers, who, like you, are dumping the 'improvements' and are reverting back to basics - the Model A as Edsel & Henry built it. Some of us, like me, compromise and have 'one of each' - my bone-stock '28 Phaeton makes me happy and quite satisfied with the Ford/Edsel car - AND my late '31 Dlx Coupe, with it's Electronic Ignition, Stromberg 97 Carb. 6 volt Alternator, 6-blade plastic fan, Mitchel Over-Drive, etc. I love and drive them both with equal joy and satisfaction. Last edited by DougVieyra; 12-03-2013 at 01:22 PM.

12-03-2013, 01:26 PM	#20
Purdy Swoft Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Alabama Posts: 8,099	Re: Downgrading my Model A Its not so much speed but in many cases its driveability. Hill climbing ability, better brakes and ease of repair when needed make a huge difference. Ease of locating parts at a more reasonable price is another factor. Not necessarily for driving at high speed, but creeping along on the highways is a good way to get rear ended and possibly killed in the process. With a few common sense mods that mostly don't even show, I can still drive slow on the back roads and listen to it chick ah lunk or I can have the power to get out of the way on the main roads. We are lucky that model A's are still in some cases legal to be driven on state roads. Who knows how long this will go on if old cars continue to be involved in fatal accidents and be in the way of traffic.