The Ford Barn

wildwilly · 10-12-2011, 10:27 AM

Im still buying books on the model A's ( Henrey's Lady ) So far I have learned that my car is an early 30 with the brow fenders. I also have learnrd that in this time that left over 29 parts were still being used up. I have a late 29 engine and a 29 front bumper. What I cant get an honest answer on is the rear bumper. is it a one peice, or a two peice bumper ? I have no spare in the rear, just the luggage rack on this coupe. Please< does any one know what is right ?

700rpm · 10-12-2011, 10:56 AM

Two piece was factory stock. One piece was for certain later deluxe models, like A400's, and may have been offered as a dealer option for the working class.

BRENT in 10-uh-C · 10-12-2011, 11:21 AM

OK let's start from the top. First off, it's your car and therefore you restore it how you see fit.

Now with regard to what you are saying, let start at the beginning and let me ask how do you know your car actually was manufactured with 1929 bumpers? Or, ...how do you know it was manufactured with that '29 engine --or even those fenders??? In studying your avitar pic, it appears your car has a lot of mixed & matched parts that gives it some individuality but not necessarily much authenticity.

Now to your exact question, based on your picture it appears to have a 1930 bumper mounted on the rear. While I realize you are seeing two separate bars, that one is generally considered one-piece. Now, think this one thru.... What does your books say when it comes to "when or why" the one-piece bumper was utilized? I think the general concensus is they were installed only on DeLuxe models. Theoretically, Eyebrow fenders were a pre-February feature (and some argue they were installed mostly on Sedans) which would pre-date the introduction of the DeLuxe models by 5-6 months. I am of the opinion to be considered correct/authentic it should have the 30-31 style two-piece rear bumpers and the front bumper should have the 62.875 inch bars.

Marco Tahtaras · 10-12-2011, 04:22 PM

As suggested, there is a high probability the car was equipped as it is by a previous owner. The '29 front bumper would never have been installed at the factory. With that said, other items COULD have been albeit unlikely. If that car (or at least the chassis) came from the factory with two side mounted spares it's possible to tell. Look under the car where the side mount arms attach to the frame rail. If they were installed at the factory then there will be three rivets holding the support to the frame rail on each side of the car. If installed at a later date they will be bolted. If you find that both sides are neatly riveted then we should revisit other details.

The rear bumper (excluding the extra clamps) was indeed an option but very rarely done.

BRENT in 10-uh-C · 10-12-2011, 05:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marco Tahtaras

As suggested, there is a high probability the car was equipped as it is by a previous owner. The '29 front bumper would never have been installed at the factory. With that said, other items COULD have been albeit unlikely. If that car (or at least the chassis) came from the factory with two side mounted spares it's possible to tell. Look under the car where the side mount arms attach to the frame rail. If they were installed at the factory then there will be three rivets holding the support to the frame rail on each side of the car. If installed at a later date they will be bolted. If you find that both sides are neatly riveted then we should revisit other details.

The rear bumper (excluding the extra clamps) was indeed an option but very rarely done.

Do you have any Branch Letters or documentation that would give a close proximity of time when this option was started?

.

Marco Tahtaras · 10-12-2011, 05:37 PM

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Quote:

Originally Posted by BRENT in 10-uh-C

Do you have any Branch Letters or documentation that would give a close proximity of time when this option was started?

.

I don't recall the starting date but have a Ford drawing somewhere of the 1929 version. They are listed in the various chassis parts price lists as "Rear bumper assembly (cross bar design)" (or something close to that). These assemblies include the bumper arms, cross brace, etc.

mantta · 10-12-2011, 05:54 PM

Your rear bumper looks to be a 30-31 front bumper.

peters180a/170b · 10-12-2011, 06:04 PM

[[[[ OK Let's start from the top. First off ,its your car and therefore you restore it how you see fit]]]] ."Brent" i think "ALL" of us knows its his car and if want to paint it even pink its his call [Honestly i don't give a rats ass what he does with his car].... That's NOT the answer he is looking for . [QUESTION] Does anyone know whats right???Marco answered it as best as ANYONE CAN! I can say for sure that the 180A's had the full length bumper on the rear since April/May of 1930 and that was a Deluxe Phaeton standard part. So i would say its wrong for his car! BUT hay its his car...

Bob C · 10-12-2011, 06:13 PM

Page 230, March 1928, of the Service Bulletins tells how to install a front bumper on the rear if a customer wants. Also March 1929 service letter says cars ordered with
welled fenders can be supplied with cross bar bumper if requested.

Bob

Marco Tahtaras · 10-12-2011, 06:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bob C

Page 230, March 1928, of the Service Bulletins tells how to install a front bumper on the rear if a customer wants. Also March 1929 service letter says cars ordered with
welled fenders can be supplied with cross bar bumper if requested.

Bob

Thanks Bob for saving me the time to look it up!

Modelakid31 · 10-12-2011, 06:51 PM

if it were me. i would put the rear one on the front and get the correct 2 piece rear ones for the rear, then sell the 29 bumper thats on the front now. but it is your car.

wildwilly · 10-12-2011, 07:01 PM

I want to thank you Brent for your reply. I am a new A owner and would like to have my car correct. I look at her as a great piece of American history, an want it to look like when Henery built it. Been trying to hunt down that book. Thanks again Sir for your reply.

wildwilly · 10-12-2011, 09:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marco Tahtaras

As suggested, there is a high probability the car was equipped as it is by a previous owner. The '29 front bumper would never have been installed at the factory. With that said, other items COULD have been albeit unlikely. If that car (or at least the chassis) came from the factory with two side mounted spares it's possible to tell. Look under the car where the side mount arms attach to the frame rail. If they were installed at the factory then there will be three rivets holding the support to the frame rail on each side of the car. If installed at a later date they will be bolted. If you find that both sides are neatly riveted then we should revisit other details.

The rear bumper (excluding the extra clamps) was indeed an option but very rarely done.

yes the supports are riveted to the frame. I do plan to take the body off the frame this winter to start my restoration of this car. Now when I find the numbers on the frame, I may get a clearer picture of what I now own. I do want to get this car to the way she was built. How do you know for sure when the car was built ? All the signs to me are saying early 30, plus what others are saying. This is my first A, an trying to learn from books and others.

sonny30coupe · 10-12-2011, 11:05 PM

The VIN will be stamped on the top of the frame rail right about behind the firewall under the cab. It will give you a pretty good idea of the manufacture date.

Marco Tahtaras · 10-13-2011, 08:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wildwilly

yes the supports are riveted to the frame. I do plan to take the body off the frame this winter to start my restoration of this car. Now when I find the numbers on the frame, I may get a clearer picture of what I now own. I do want to get this car to the way she was built. How do you know for sure when the car was built ? All the signs to me are saying early 30, plus what others are saying. This is my first A, an trying to learn from books and others.

If the engine is original to the car it would likely be a November or December '29 engine. That is assuming the fenders are original to the car which now appears likely.

If you can provide a couple of pics of one end of the luggage rack near the mounting area also showing the bumper cross brace, bumper mount, etc., we should be able to tell more as to what has been changed or added in recent years.

Don't be in a rush to take the apart. I strongly recommend driving the car and getting to know it well. Enjoying the car and PLANNING your restoration for a year or so will pay off. Keep in mind that the typical restoration means having the car in pieces for several years.

BRENT in 10-uh-C · 10-13-2011, 09:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bob C

Page 230, March 1928, of the Service Bulletins tells how to install a front bumper on the rear if a customer wants. Also March 1929 service letter says cars ordered with
welled fenders can be supplied with cross bar bumper if requested.

Bob

March '28 S/B attachment...

700rpm · 10-13-2011, 11:46 AM

"Don't be in a rush to take the apart. I strongly recommend driving the car and getting to know it well. Enjoying the car and PLANNING your restoration for a year or so will pay off. Keep in mind that the typical restoration means having the car in pieces for several years."

Thank you, Marco, for stating that. Wildwilly, Marco is one of the most knowledgeable guys you'll ever get advice from, so listen up. So many cars get taken apart in a rush of enthusiasm for restoration, and then when the reality of the time, money, and work sets in the car just sits. Parts get lost, and sometimes an otherwise good original driver gets compromised to good intentions gone south.

"Go slowly for a more harmonious outcome." — Old Sioux Indian saying

JoeWay · 10-13-2011, 12:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 700rpm

"Don't be in a rush to take the apart. I strongly recommend driving the car and getting to know it well. Enjoying the car and PLANNING your restoration for a year or so will pay off. Keep in mind that the typical restoration means having the car in pieces for several years."

Thank you, Marco, for stating that. Wildwilly, Marco is one of the most knowledgeable guys you'll ever get advice from, so listen up. So many cars get taken apart in a rush of enthusiasm for restoration, and then when the reality of the time, money, and work sets in the car just sits. Parts get lost, and sometimes an otherwise good original driver gets compromised to good intentions gone south.

"Go slowly for a more harmonious outcome." — Old Sioux Indian saying

Yes, that's very good advice. I took my car apart in 1966 and it took me right at 40 years to get it back together enough to be able to drive it. Almost all the work was done in the last five years of that time period, so I could have been enjoying the car for 35 years if I'd waited until I was really ready.

Joe

wildwilly · 10-14-2011, 10:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marco Tahtaras

If the engine is original to the car it would likely be a November or December '29 engine. That is assuming the fenders are original to the car which now appears likely.

If you can provide a couple of pics of one end of the luggage rack near the mounting area also showing the bumper cross brace, bumper mount, etc., we should be able to tell more as to what has been changed or added in recent years.

Don't be in a rush to take the apart. I strongly recommend driving the car and getting to know it well. Enjoying the car and PLANNING your restoration for a year or so will pay off. Keep in mind that the typical restoration means having the car in pieces for several years.

Yes , I believe the engine was built in November. it has a 7 digit number that starts off 266****. I will try this weekend to supply you the pics that you request. Any help would be great. Thank you for your reply.

RonC · 10-14-2011, 10:07 PM

You should be able to date the car by the parts assuming it has the original chassis. The frame date is nice to know but you can date by the parts too. Just make a calendar table with months across the top and list major or easily dated parts on the left of the table from the JS. Color in the date ranges for each part you find on you car. If you do enough parts you will end up with a "best fit" date range of when you car was most likely assembled. The more parts you date and the more original the car is the more accurate your date will be. You should be able to date your car accurately between 1 to 3 months of the actual date of assembly.

10-12-2011, 10:56 AM	#2
700rpm Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 6,039	Re: bumper confussion Two piece was factory stock. One piece was for certain later deluxe models, like A400's, and may have been offered as a dealer option for the working class.

10-12-2011, 11:21 AM	#3
BRENT in 10-uh-C Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Eastern Tennessee Posts: 11,972	Re: bumper confussion OK let's start from the top. First off, it's your car and therefore you restore it how you see fit. Now with regard to what you are saying, let start at the beginning and let me ask how do you know your car actually was manufactured with 1929 bumpers? Or, ...how do you know it was manufactured with that '29 engine --or even those fenders??? In studying your avitar pic, it appears your car has a lot of mixed & matched parts that gives it some individuality but not necessarily much authenticity. Now to your exact question, based on your picture it appears to have a 1930 bumper mounted on the rear. While I realize you are seeing two separate bars, that one is generally considered one-piece. Now, think this one thru.... What does your books say when it comes to "when or why" the one-piece bumper was utilized? I think the general concensus is they were installed only on DeLuxe models. Theoretically, Eyebrow fenders were a pre-February feature (and some argue they were installed mostly on Sedans) which would pre-date the introduction of the DeLuxe models by 5-6 months. I am of the opinion to be considered correct/authentic it should have the 30-31 style two-piece rear bumpers and the front bumper should have the 62.875 inch bars. __________________ . BRENT in 10-uh-C . www.model-a-ford.com ...(...Finally Updated!! ) .

10-12-2011, 04:22 PM	#4
Marco Tahtaras Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Posts: 3,099	Re: bumper confussion As suggested, there is a high probability the car was equipped as it is by a previous owner. The '29 front bumper would never have been installed at the factory. With that said, other items COULD have been albeit unlikely. If that car (or at least the chassis) came from the factory with two side mounted spares it's possible to tell. Look under the car where the side mount arms attach to the frame rail. If they were installed at the factory then there will be three rivets holding the support to the frame rail on each side of the car. If installed at a later date they will be bolted. If you find that both sides are neatly riveted then we should revisit other details. The rear bumper (excluding the extra clamps) was indeed an option but very rarely done. __________________ http://www.abarnyard.com/

10-12-2011, 05:54 PM	#7
mantta Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Keweenaw Bay, MI (Michigan's Upper Peninsula) Posts: 218	Re: bumper confussion Your rear bumper looks to be a 30-31 front bumper.

10-12-2011, 06:04 PM	#8
peters180a/170b Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Putnam Valley N.Y. Posts: 2,151	Re: bumper confussion [[[[ OK Let's start from the top. First off ,its your car and therefore you restore it how you see fit]]]] ."Brent" i think "ALL" of us knows its his car and if want to paint it even pink its his call [Honestly i don't give a rats ass what he does with his car].... That's NOT the answer he is looking for . [QUESTION] Does anyone know whats right???Marco answered it as best as ANYONE CAN! I can say for sure that the 180A's had the full length bumper on the rear since April/May of 1930 and that was a Deluxe Phaeton standard part. So i would say its wrong for his car! BUT hay its his car...

10-12-2011, 06:13 PM	#9
Bob C Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: So Cal Posts: 9,360	Re: bumper confussion Page 230, March 1928, of the Service Bulletins tells how to install a front bumper on the rear if a customer wants. Also March 1929 service letter says cars ordered with welled fenders can be supplied with cross bar bumper if requested. Bob

10-12-2011, 06:51 PM	#11
Modelakid31 Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Foxborough, MA Posts: 364	Re: bumper confussion if it were me. i would put the rear one on the front and get the correct 2 piece rear ones for the rear, then sell the 29 bumper thats on the front now. but it is your car.

10-12-2011, 07:01 PM	#12
wildwilly Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2011 Location: Easley, SC Posts: 109	Re: bumper confussion I want to thank you Brent for your reply. I am a new A owner and would like to have my car correct. I look at her as a great piece of American history, an want it to look like when Henery built it. Been trying to hunt down that book. Thanks again Sir for your reply.

10-12-2011, 11:05 PM	#14
sonny30coupe Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Kansas City KS Posts: 255	Re: bumper confussion The VIN will be stamped on the top of the frame rail right about behind the firewall under the cab. It will give you a pretty good idea of the manufacture date.

10-13-2011, 11:46 AM	#17
700rpm Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 6,039	Re: bumper confussion "Don't be in a rush to take the apart. I strongly recommend driving the car and getting to know it well. Enjoying the car and PLANNING your restoration for a year or so will pay off. Keep in mind that the typical restoration means having the car in pieces for several years." Thank you, Marco, for stating that. Wildwilly, Marco is one of the most knowledgeable guys you'll ever get advice from, so listen up. So many cars get taken apart in a rush of enthusiasm for restoration, and then when the reality of the time, money, and work sets in the car just sits. Parts get lost, and sometimes an otherwise good original driver gets compromised to good intentions gone south. "Go slowly for a more harmonious outcome." — Old Sioux Indian saying

10-14-2011, 10:07 PM	#20
RonC Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Rhode Island Posts: 1,868	Re: bumper confussion You should be able to date the car by the parts assuming it has the original chassis. The frame date is nice to know but you can date by the parts too. Just make a calendar table with months across the top and list major or easily dated parts on the left of the table from the JS. Color in the date ranges for each part you find on you car. If you do enough parts you will end up with a "best fit" date range of when you car was most likely assembled. The more parts you date and the more original the car is the more accurate your date will be. You should be able to date your car accurately between 1 to 3 months of the actual date of assembly.