The Ford Barn - View Single Post - The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

Terry Burtz, Calif · 06-01-2020, 01:04 PM

Many people respond to my Email account with comments, questions, and concerns. Posted below are some of those Emails that have been sanitized to remove Email addresses and last names.

Hello Terry
Very interested in your project and great to hear it is back on track in light of the covid situation. Being that I have a oilfield manufacturing plant in China I have a little experience with the current situation. I would certainly be interested in purchasing the block, crank, main caps and rods once you are in production. It certainly appears that you have done your due diligence in sourcing a suitable company for producing the castings, forgings and machining in china. As I am sure you have seen there are companies there that claim to follow certain quality control procedures and other that actually do perform them. Having lived there for a few years when I set up my plant I gained, what I feel is some good insight on how the production and engineering people think and work.
I will follow your project online and look forward to seeing your updates on this project, and hopefully of seeing it being commercially ready in the near distance future.
Bob

Bob, The factories that we are using in China are state of the art and produce engines for American, European, Japanese, along with their own automobiles. The improved Model A engine was something new to them because "L" head engines haven't been made in the last 60 years. The factories in China are ISO certified and when the dimensions on the Ford drawings were converted to metric on their drawings, all metric dimensions have a smaller tolerance range. Modern engines run at a higher RPM and balancing needs to be more precise than a lower RPM engine like a Model A. The factories will balance to modern standards which is a bonus.

I don't think I could put a motor partly built in china in my Model A. I enjoy reading your article's. Charles

Charles, Thanks for your comment. The world has changed and is now a global economy. I live in Silicon Valley which is just south of San Francisco. In WW2, we had many shipyards, foundries, huge machine shops and everything else to support the war effort. Today that is all gone. We import steel from China for projects like the new bridge between San Francisco and Oakland, skyscrapers, the new transit center in San Francisco, and almost every big project. I don't think that you can rebuild a Model A engine using parts from suppliers that don't come from China.

Terry:
Thanks so much for this exciting update! I have been following this project since its early days and really look forward to seein one of these on a dyno.
Be and do well
Dana

For dyno runs with various combinations of speed equipment, see Piranios https://www.modelaparts.net/
Dyno tests are short in duration. Our target market is for people that want an engine that will run for a length of time at high RPM. Our plan for testing includes running at high RPM on a test stand for a length of time and then installing the engine in a car to do hill climbs. With 5 main bearings, 8 crankshaft counterweights, and 2 inch diameter rod and main bearings, I would guess that the new Model A engine would perform similar to any of Piranios results with a much longer life.

Dear Terry:
Agreed, the Dyno is a short test. However it is used to learn about horsepower. Longevity is certainly what most people will be looking for in this engine. However horsepower is still an interesting metric to have in your pocket, just for comparison sake.
When I was in the AF, I had a 31 Coupe that was in such bad shape I had to get down to 1st gear coming home to Vandenberg AFB from Santa Maria (I don’t know the hill statistics, but the last one was a pretty good grade). I finally did the engine and was shocked at my ability to zip up that hill in third gear with ease. I realize that doesn’t compare to this situation but it does illustrate the value of a few extra ponies. I Believe the OEM horsepower on that engine was something like about 50Hp. That was such a fun car for a young GI.
You mention hill climbs. Clearly you are well studied in this area, how ever for those who have only a passing acquaintance with the is little machine, the Model A break system is mechanical, even in top shape this is not a car to go zipping up or down hills without some awareness of its limitations. This is, by the way, why (again for those following who aren’t aware) one sees so many Model As rolling around on Model B rims. At some point someone has upgraded to “juice” brakes and they wouldn’t fit behind the Model A drums.
All that said, this is a tremendously fun little machine to own.
Once again, best of luck. This is an exciting little project to watch.

Dana, Thanks again for your comments. We want an engine built like the majority of rebuilt engines. The engine builder that we will be working with has a used high compression head that looks stock that we will be using. He also has a coupe that is capable of hill climbing. As an independent evaluator, we will have him do the testing including hill climbing as we take pictures and videos. With 5 main bearings, larger diameter main and rod bearings, and zero fatigue cycles on all parts, the bottom end should not fly apart at high RPM. First and second gear will be used for braking in decents.

Fabulous! I have the funds set aside for an engine........Andy

Andy, thanks for your comment. Our goal is to provide the new engine parts at a cost that is comparable with the cost of a rebuilt stock engine.

very interested in your project. If you have a list of potential customers that would purchase a complete motor for installation and testing put me on the list!. I have an original 29 roadster that is destined for racing events. John

John, We have no list yet and are not supplying a complete engine. We are only supplying a new 5 main cylinder block, a 5 main crankshaft, and connecting rods. You get to choose pistons, valve train, camshaft, and timing gears.

I am about to build a Model A engine using a Skat counterbalanced crankshaft and all insert bearings. After seeing this proposed "new" engine I think maybe the cost of the "new" engine might be comparable and the new engine would be much better. I will be interested in watching progress and cost. Ronald

Ronald, The proposed "new" engine is almost reality. If the schedule doesn't change, parts, assembly, and testing will be completed in July 2020. We are well aware that cost is an important factor.

Thanks for doing this it is much needed and appreciated by fellow Model A enthusiasts. I hope it keeps moving forward. Sam

Sam, Thanks

Hi
Very interested in one of these blocks, cranks and rods. I was about to have to have my original block machined and fit a new crank and rods so replacing the lot would be an exellent way to go. Good luck with this and please keep me updated.
Thanks Rod

Rod, Thanks for considering the new engine.

Thank you for taking on this massive project. As the availability of rebuildable blocks becomes scarce, it is comforting to know that your efforts will allow this hobby and the preservation of history to go on for many years to come.
Keep up the "steam" and continue to forge ahead with this project. Paul

Paul, Thanks

Hi Terry, I am very interested in this project! I am a 45 year member of MAFCA in Beamsville Ontario Canada. I operated a Babbitt in hand and engine rebuild business for 32 years on a part time basis, while full time teaching millwright at Mohawk College. My son Theo now runs the engine business full time, “ Around the block engines”
Please keep me posted on your progress.
Thanks, Ted

Ted, The next update will include the results of assembly and testing and any problems.

TERRY...
Looks like you have 13 years out of your life on this project. As they say, "Keep the Faith, Baby!" I read your progress reports with great interest and admiration for the professionalism and certainly hope the effort will be repaid with many orders for your new Model A engines. I'd like to buy one, and I don't even need it. Rich

Rich, Since you don't need it, you could use it as a display piece in your man-cave, and if you need to get rid of it, someone would be happy to buy.

Hi Terry,
Just wondering, will the block take adjustable lifters as it comes or do we machine that when we get it?
Sounds pretty good. I figured we would lose several months because of the virus. Thanks, Kerry

Kerry,
The new cylinder block will be machined to Ford drawing A-6015 so that all interfaces are identical to Model A. There is no measuring of an old cylinder block to reverse engineer dimensions. In other words, if a part fits an original cylinder block, then it will fit the new cylinder block.
Some people like to use the adjustable lifters with a locknut and they sometimes machine the top of the lifter bodies shorter for better wrench access. The lifter bodies will be the stock height on the new cylinder block.

Excellent progress ,The patterns and coreboxes are looking good, just like my days at Chrysler Australia. Well Done you two!!! Warwick

Thanks for the compliment. We are using factories that are automated and specialize in the manufacture of engines. I assume that you worked at the factory in Lonsdale that closed in 1980.

Thanks Terry, You are spot on .Yes I worked at Lonsdale, 1st as metal patternmaker in the grey iron foundry, then in the alloy foundry as a quality analyst.By this time Chrysler had sold the plant to Mitsubishi. I retired in 2000 just before it closed. With 20years around casting I know how much work is involved in all the aspects of the process. I am following your progress because I am a Model A enthusiast and look forward to fitting one of your engines.
Good Luck with your progress,All The Best ..Warwick

Thanks for the update Terry!!
With everything going on in the world I thought thing would be set things back until the end of the year. This is great news!! Looking forward to the next update. Hope all is well with you and your family.
Stay well and thanks for all your hard work. The turtle always end up winning the race. Slow but steady.
Take care. Steve

Steve, When Covid19 hit, my thoughts were the same. I'm amazed and happy that Covid19 had little impact on this project. The team (John, Leonard, Bill, and I) along with our families are all well.

06-01-2020, 01:04 PM	#103
Terry Burtz, Calif Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Campbell,CA, USA Posts: 318	Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track. Many people respond to my Email account with comments, questions, and concerns. Posted below are some of those Emails that have been sanitized to remove Email addresses and last names. Hello Terry Very interested in your project and great to hear it is back on track in light of the covid situation. Being that I have a oilfield manufacturing plant in China I have a little experience with the current situation. I would certainly be interested in purchasing the block, crank, main caps and rods once you are in production. It certainly appears that you have done your due diligence in sourcing a suitable company for producing the castings, forgings and machining in china. As I am sure you have seen there are companies there that claim to follow certain quality control procedures and other that actually do perform them. Having lived there for a few years when I set up my plant I gained, what I feel is some good insight on how the production and engineering people think and work. I will follow your project online and look forward to seeing your updates on this project, and hopefully of seeing it being commercially ready in the near distance future. Bob Bob, The factories that we are using in China are state of the art and produce engines for American, European, Japanese, along with their own automobiles. The improved Model A engine was something new to them because "L" head engines haven't been made in the last 60 years. The factories in China are ISO certified and when the dimensions on the Ford drawings were converted to metric on their drawings, all metric dimensions have a smaller tolerance range. Modern engines run at a higher RPM and balancing needs to be more precise than a lower RPM engine like a Model A. The factories will balance to modern standards which is a bonus. I don't think I could put a motor partly built in china in my Model A. I enjoy reading your article's. Charles Charles, Thanks for your comment. The world has changed and is now a global economy. I live in Silicon Valley which is just south of San Francisco. In WW2, we had many shipyards, foundries, huge machine shops and everything else to support the war effort. Today that is all gone. We import steel from China for projects like the new bridge between San Francisco and Oakland, skyscrapers, the new transit center in San Francisco, and almost every big project. I don't think that you can rebuild a Model A engine using parts from suppliers that don't come from China. Terry: Thanks so much for this exciting update! I have been following this project since its early days and really look forward to seein one of these on a dyno. Be and do well Dana For dyno runs with various combinations of speed equipment, see Piranios https://www.modelaparts.net/ Dyno tests are short in duration. Our target market is for people that want an engine that will run for a length of time at high RPM. Our plan for testing includes running at high RPM on a test stand for a length of time and then installing the engine in a car to do hill climbs. With 5 main bearings, 8 crankshaft counterweights, and 2 inch diameter rod and main bearings, I would guess that the new Model A engine would perform similar to any of Piranios results with a much longer life. Dear Terry: Agreed, the Dyno is a short test. However it is used to learn about horsepower. Longevity is certainly what most people will be looking for in this engine. However horsepower is still an interesting metric to have in your pocket, just for comparison sake. When I was in the AF, I had a 31 Coupe that was in such bad shape I had to get down to 1st gear coming home to Vandenberg AFB from Santa Maria (I don’t know the hill statistics, but the last one was a pretty good grade). I finally did the engine and was shocked at my ability to zip up that hill in third gear with ease. I realize that doesn’t compare to this situation but it does illustrate the value of a few extra ponies. I Believe the OEM horsepower on that engine was something like about 50Hp. That was such a fun car for a young GI. You mention hill climbs. Clearly you are well studied in this area, how ever for those who have only a passing acquaintance with the is little machine, the Model A break system is mechanical, even in top shape this is not a car to go zipping up or down hills without some awareness of its limitations. This is, by the way, why (again for those following who aren’t aware) one sees so many Model As rolling around on Model B rims. At some point someone has upgraded to “juice” brakes and they wouldn’t fit behind the Model A drums. All that said, this is a tremendously fun little machine to own. Once again, best of luck. This is an exciting little project to watch. Dana, Thanks again for your comments. We want an engine built like the majority of rebuilt engines. The engine builder that we will be working with has a used high compression head that looks stock that we will be using. He also has a coupe that is capable of hill climbing. As an independent evaluator, we will have him do the testing including hill climbing as we take pictures and videos. With 5 main bearings, larger diameter main and rod bearings, and zero fatigue cycles on all parts, the bottom end should not fly apart at high RPM. First and second gear will be used for braking in decents. Fabulous! I have the funds set aside for an engine........Andy Andy, thanks for your comment. Our goal is to provide the new engine parts at a cost that is comparable with the cost of a rebuilt stock engine. very interested in your project. If you have a list of potential customers that would purchase a complete motor for installation and testing put me on the list!. I have an original 29 roadster that is destined for racing events. John John, We have no list yet and are not supplying a complete engine. We are only supplying a new 5 main cylinder block, a 5 main crankshaft, and connecting rods. You get to choose pistons, valve train, camshaft, and timing gears. I am about to build a Model A engine using a Skat counterbalanced crankshaft and all insert bearings. After seeing this proposed "new" engine I think maybe the cost of the "new" engine might be comparable and the new engine would be much better. I will be interested in watching progress and cost. Ronald Ronald, The proposed "new" engine is almost reality. If the schedule doesn't change, parts, assembly, and testing will be completed in July 2020. We are well aware that cost is an important factor. Thanks for doing this it is much needed and appreciated by fellow Model A enthusiasts. I hope it keeps moving forward. Sam Sam, Thanks Hi Very interested in one of these blocks, cranks and rods. I was about to have to have my original block machined and fit a new crank and rods so replacing the lot would be an exellent way to go. Good luck with this and please keep me updated. Thanks Rod Rod, Thanks for considering the new engine. Thank you for taking on this massive project. As the availability of rebuildable blocks becomes scarce, it is comforting to know that your efforts will allow this hobby and the preservation of history to go on for many years to come. Keep up the "steam" and continue to forge ahead with this project. Paul Paul, Thanks Hi Terry, I am very interested in this project! I am a 45 year member of MAFCA in Beamsville Ontario Canada. I operated a Babbitt in hand and engine rebuild business for 32 years on a part time basis, while full time teaching millwright at Mohawk College. My son Theo now runs the engine business full time, “ Around the block engines” Please keep me posted on your progress. Thanks, Ted Ted, The next update will include the results of assembly and testing and any problems. TERRY... Looks like you have 13 years out of your life on this project. As they say, "Keep the Faith, Baby!" I read your progress reports with great interest and admiration for the professionalism and certainly hope the effort will be repaid with many orders for your new Model A engines. I'd like to buy one, and I don't even need it. Rich Rich, Since you don't need it, you could use it as a display piece in your man-cave, and if you need to get rid of it, someone would be happy to buy. Hi Terry, Just wondering, will the block take adjustable lifters as it comes or do we machine that when we get it? Sounds pretty good. I figured we would lose several months because of the virus. Thanks, Kerry Kerry, The new cylinder block will be machined to Ford drawing A-6015 so that all interfaces are identical to Model A. There is no measuring of an old cylinder block to reverse engineer dimensions. In other words, if a part fits an original cylinder block, then it will fit the new cylinder block. Some people like to use the adjustable lifters with a locknut and they sometimes machine the top of the lifter bodies shorter for better wrench access. The lifter bodies will be the stock height on the new cylinder block. Excellent progress ,The patterns and coreboxes are looking good, just like my days at Chrysler Australia. Well Done you two!!! Warwick Thanks for the compliment. We are using factories that are automated and specialize in the manufacture of engines. I assume that you worked at the factory in Lonsdale that closed in 1980. Thanks Terry, You are spot on .Yes I worked at Lonsdale, 1st as metal patternmaker in the grey iron foundry, then in the alloy foundry as a quality analyst.By this time Chrysler had sold the plant to Mitsubishi. I retired in 2000 just before it closed. With 20years around casting I know how much work is involved in all the aspects of the process. I am following your progress because I am a Model A enthusiast and look forward to fitting one of your engines. Good Luck with your progress,All The Best ..Warwick Thanks for the update Terry!! With everything going on in the world I thought thing would be set things back until the end of the year. This is great news!! Looking forward to the next update. Hope all is well with you and your family. Stay well and thanks for all your hard work. The turtle always end up winning the race. Slow but steady. Take care. Steve Steve, When Covid19 hit, my thoughts were the same. I'm amazed and happy that Covid19 had little impact on this project. The team (John, Leonard, Bill, and I) along with our families are all well.