Updates regarding the "New Engine " project are posted to online forums and an Email list of people that are interested but not active on online forums. The following Email was sent to my contacts and after the Email, there were comments, questions, and answers. Last names have been omitted to maintain privacy.
To All,
It has come to my attention that many people on my Email list are not involved with online social groups. This Email is a summary of the test results and is being sent to those on my Email list and will also be posted on online forums.
We were on a very tight schedule at the 3rd party evaluator to assemble the engine, check for clearances, run it on a test stand, and install it in a car for a hill climb.
After the new Model A engine was assembled with a stock oil pump (for a baseline), filled with 10w-30 oil and started, there was no oil pressure, so we pulled the pan and installed a modified Model A oil pump that was machined to increase the volume by doubling the area of all oil passages. We had a Stipe oil pump on hand, but didn't use it because the pump outlet would have needed modification by an outside machine shop for use in a stock appearing engine without an oil filter.
When the new engine was started with the modified Model A oil pump, we had oil pressure but it was much lower than expected.
Oil pressure was measured at the output of the oil pump, and at the end of the main oil galley.
I was disappointed with the low oil pressure. The new engine has 15 bearings (5 main, 4 connecting rod, 5 camshaft, and rear thrust) that are pressure-lubricated, so there are 29 places for oil to leak which reduces pressure. Since we had some oil pressure at the end of the main oil galley and there were no bad sounds, I made the decision to continue testing.
The first test after assembly was break-in. Instead of driving easy for the first 1000 miles, we broke the engine in hard by running it at 3100 RPM for 6 hours. 3100 RPM is equivalent to 75 MPH without overdrive. During this test, oil temperature was above 260 degrees F, but we still had minimal oil pressure.
After this test, we drained the oil and strained it through a clean rag to look for particles. The oil was dark, but there were no particles.
The next day, the oil was replaced with O'Reilly 20w-50 oil in an effort to gain oil pressure and we ran the engine at 2000 RPM for 4 hours. During this test, the head temperature reached 260 degrees F when we accidentally ran it out of water.
The final test was to install the new engine in a car for a hill climb of 1700 feet elevation gain in 5 miles.
After the hill climb, the engine was removed from the car and shipped to me for disassembly and examination.
I removed the oil pan and found that a 3/8-16 UNC setscrew oil plug was missing. This missing 3/8 inch plug vented the main oil galley directly to the crankcase.
Further disassembly showed no signs of excessive wear on the bearings or any other parts despite the low oil pressure and overheating when we accidentally ran it out of water.
During engine assembly, we found a few minor things that need to be changed to provide a better product. These changes have resulted in drawing changes for the production run.
We are working on a website to take orders and deposits, a "Builders Guide", and several other things.
We have placed an order with the factory in China and are in the queue to receive parts near the end of January 2021.
We have committed to present the new engine in a seminar at the MARC membership meet in Bay City, MI on April 9, 2021.
Terry,
Congrats on a successful test program! Thanks for the update. I am one of those that does not participate on the common social media.
The absence of the plug during the test is just one of those little things that can bite you, fortunately, the tests went well in spite of that problem. I recall working on a 1941 V12 Lincoln Continental for a friend. I believe that even when new the oil pressure was really low.
Bill
Bill,
The new engine has 19 drilled oil passages in the cylinder block and several need plugs.
Engine assembly at the 3rd party evaluator without a checklist was very hectic, like having Larry, Moe, and Curley putting it together. We received the setscrew plugs from the manufacturer in a small plastic bag and used them all. Unfortunately, our specification to the manufacturer was one setscrew short.
I'm happy that the engine survived with low oil pressure and feel confident that it will handle most any abuse a new owner could dish out.
Terry
Hi Terry,
Thanks for the oil filter information.
I would be using a Bill Stipe high volume oil pump, will you be able to tell me what I would need to be block off to get the oil to exit out of the block side? This exit hole I would increase to
1 / 4 NPT to get more volume out.
The drilling and tapping of the lower bolt of the timing cover inspection bolt for the oil return concerns me as the hole in the bolt would be quite small? Is there any where else in the block that could be drilled and tapped to 1 / 4 NPT to get more volume back to pressurise the engine.
As I have mentioned before our Model A Club president Dean Roberts has been communicating with one of your people and he is intending to get an order into you in the coming weeks for a quantity of engines, he currently investigating shipping options, he also brings goods from China and USA for his own business so he has some very good contacts.
Regards Peter
Peter,
I just finished writing the oil filter section for the "Builders Guide" that will come with every set of new engine parts.
The oil filter information in my Oct 19 Email reply to you has changed.
Pasted below is my latest revision of the "Builders Guide" section that addresses the use of an oil filter. The "Builders Guide" will have pictures to make things easier to understand.
I'm happy to see those in Australia getting together to save on shipping and Customs fees.
Oil Filter System
The new engine pressurized oil system has been designed to accommodate an optional external oil filter. There is an exit hole for dirty oil and an entrance hole for returning clean oil.
To plumb for an oil filter, all oil from the oil pump must be routed to exit at the side of the cylinder block. If using a modified stock Model A Ford oil pump, the oil passages at the top of the pump must be blocked and the 8 mm (5/16 inch) horizontal passage behind the 1/8-27 NPT plug must be blocked.
If using a Stipe or similar oil pump, there is no need to block oil passages in the cylinder block.
The 1/8-27 NPT cylinder block threads where the oil will exit need to be enlarged to 1/4-18 NPT.
Oil is routed from the 1/4-18 NPT hole in the cylinder block to the dirty (inlet) side of the filter.
Clean oil exiting the oil filter returns to the main oil galley through a modification at the lower bolt that holds the timing gear side cover in place.
Enlarge the lower bolt hole in the timing gear side cover to 17/32 (.531) inch diameter.
The 7/16-14 UNC hole in the cylinder block needs to be bottom tapped for a 7/16-14 Helicoil.
Use the timing gear side cover as a guide for the tap drill and taps needed to keep the new threads perpendicular to the machined surface.
Instead of installing a Helicoil, make a special bolt to replace the stock bolt.
The special bolt needs to be made from hex stock, have a .523 inch shank diameter and 14 threads per inch. The center of the bolt needs a 21/64 (.328) inch through hole and the hex end needs to be threaded for a 1/4-18 NPT fitting.
In the cylinder block behind the special bolt, there are 8 mm (5/16 inch) oil passages that will return the clean oil to the main oil galley.
If an owner wishes to remove the oil filter, the 1/4-18 NPT hole in the cylinder block can be changed back to 1/8-27 NPT by using a 1/4 NPT male x 1/8 NPT female bushing (McMaster Carr part 44605K256) and the timing gear side cover bolt threads can be changed back by installing a 7/16 UNC Helicoil.
Thanks Terry,
I have been getting your emails.
I currently run a Model B fully pressurised motor fitted with a Stipe high volume oil pump. I don’t know if you are familiar with the B engine but they have pressurise Main & cam bearings from factory, fed from a small section of the side plate. What I did was drill the crank through the webbing to conrod journals. The oil holes to the cam bearing were approximately 3/16th of an inch I jetted these down to 1/16th, then I left the 3/16th holes to the mains & now conrods, I also jetted down the oil supply to the back of the timing gear to 1/8th.
With this engine I have now done 20,000 miles, I use 20-60 oil and hot at 45mph the oil pressure sits on 25 to 30PSI, at idle around 5psi.
Terry just thought that some of this may help you with oil pressure issues.
Regards Peter
Peter,
I built my first pressurized Model B engine in 1976 and have similar oil pressure readings.
You are lucky to have 20w-60 oil in Australia. 20w-50 is common in the USA. We can buy 10w-60, but it is expensive.
The missing 3/8-16 UNC setscrew was definitely the cause of low oil pressure.
I'm happy that the engine survived with low oil pressure and feel confident that it will handle most any abuse a new owner could dish out.
From your Email address, I see that you are from Australia.
Please contact Dean XXXX if you are interested in buying one of the new engines. We want to ship directly from China to Australia by container to save on shipping and Customs costs.
Question: Can you supply this engine as an assembled short block (complete with rods & pistons, pan, cam, and timing cover) and give me an idea as to what it could cost? I would install the intake, exhaust, head and ignition. (I want to keep the pan and timing cover on the engine I have)
Thank you, Mike
Mike,
The answer is no because of packaging and there are too many variables.
The parts from China will be in wooden boxes that are ready to ship to customers.
We cannot build a short block because we have no idea what pistons, rings, valves, guides, camshaft, timing gears, and all other parts that you want to use in the short block.
Every parts kit will come with a "Builders Guide" so any competent automotive shop should be able to assemble the short block.
We are working on a website that describes the new engine and has a section for orders and deposits.
After we have parts in the USA and for sale, we will offer the parts kit (new 5 main cylinder block, crankshaft, and 4 connecting rods) at the introductory price of $3500. This cost is equal to the cost of a quality rebuild.
The introductory price will only be offered for 60 days and after that, we will be selling to dealers in minimum quantities of 5.
Terry
If the crank and cam bearings and surfaces should not wear or contact marks you may be okay. However, you have no history from a car being driven in normal daily driving for an extended period and that, in my mind, would cause me to pause regarding purchasing and engine from you. Take pictures of the bottom end for display purposes until your next engine arrives but put the present one on the road for real life testing.
Dan
Dan,
Thanks for your comments.
In order to avoid a prolonged test period, we subjected the new engine to more abuse and higher stresses than it would ever receive under normal driving conditions.
If there was a weak link in the design, it would have shown up during the test where without any break-in, we started the engine and ran it at 3100 RPM for 6 hours straight which is the equivalent of 75 MPH without overdrive.
Would you buy a modern car off the showroom floor and drive it this way?
Some destructive tests are planned. The connecting rods were torqued to 35 lb-ft with 170 KSI bolts. We will take a couple of connecting rods and apply torque until the bolt, connecting rod, or drive socket fails.
Even with low oil pressure because we failed to install a 3/8-16 UNC setscrew plug that vented the main oil galley, oil that was hotter than 260 degrees F, and 3100 RPM for 6 hours, nothing broke or showed unusual signs of wear, so we are confident to go into production.
The only downside to missing the 60-day window is that you will pay for dealer markup and additional shipping.
I'm on the list for one of the first engines, I hope. Maybe I could drive it from CA to Mi for your presentation��.
Question: With the larger main bearings will the A pan fit without modifications, B pan? What rear seal is used, yours?
Richard
Yes, you will receive one of the first engines.
We would be honored if you were able to drive from CA to MI to the MARC meet.
Everything fits within the confines of original Model A parts. The new engine uses a Model A oil pan and the pan does not need to be modified.
The rear main seal used is a National 415035 which fits a 4.000-inch shaft, has an OD of 4.999 inches, and a thickness of .468 inch. Do an eBay search on "National 415035" and you will see pictures of actual seals. I just bought one for $14 and that included postage.
Terry,
Very nicely done! I do have a couple of questions:
1) The cam being used in the article appears to be new, is it? I'm just curious, not looking for any business, don't want any.
2) I'm a little concerned about the oil pressure being that low. As a racer I've always gone by the rule of thumb that 10 lbs. per 1,000 RPM is needed. I only run about 35 lbs. in my street engines, 5-8 lbs. seems a bit low.
3) It appears that only 1/8" pipe is being used for the oil filter, and it is only capable of being partial flow. Not that this is a problem, just asking. Also appears that the side cover may need to be modified to plumb the filter???
4) So, are you making new oil pumps? Or using an original pump?
5) You hi-lited the area where you encountered assembly problems with the cam, but I didn't really see where it would have been a problem.
6) How much does the new flywheel weigh, and what clutch is it drilled for? 9" early Ford? On the last couple of engines I have built, I put in a diaphragm clutch, much smoother than the early Ford clutch.
I didn't think you would actually be able to offer the block and kit for that low of a price, congratulations on being able to do so! Put me on your buyers list.
I love your "test-hill", where is it located? Again, just curious.
Thanks, Jim
Jim,
Thanks for the comments.
1)The cam is a new 5 bearing Stipe 330 cam.
2)The oil pressure was low because a 3/8-16 UNC setscrew plug was accidentally not installed and it was an open hole in the main oil galley.
3)We didn't have time at the 3rd party evaluator to do anything with an oil filter. I agree that a 1/8-27 NPT fitting is too small to get adequate flow through an oil filter.
4)To keep prices reasonable, a modified Model A oil pump was used. Every passage in the modified pump had twice the area for increased flow.
5)The #4 crankcase web was slightly too wide and was barely hit by the crankshaft counterweight. We solved the problem with a little die grinding on the web. The factory in China already has the change request.
6)The flywheel is 30 pounds without the ring gear and is drilled for the Ford 9-inch pressure plate.
The good price is due to the negotiating skills of our production and quality assurance manager, John Lampl. John also has WW2 Jeep cylinder blocks and many other parts manufactured in China.
I can't disclose where the "test-hill" is out of respect for our 3rd party evaluator. If I were to reveal where testing took place, our 3rd party evaluator would possibly be inundated with phone calls and that would impact his business.
Terry
Dear Terry,
I’m interested in one of your engines. When will you do some Dyno testing at different levels of performance so that I can see what type of power the engine develops?
I have a 1928 model A roadster that I’ve had since I was 13 in 1957. I won first place at the Model A Restorers Club in 1974 and after that rebuilt the engine with Miller overhead valve head. Also I added an overdrive.
Five years ago I bought an original 1931 A400. I used a B block with the later model reproduction miller overhead valve head. The builder figures the engine produces about 110 hp. I have a four-speed Chevrolet S 10 transmission in it plus air-conditioning.
I’ve been following your progress for several years and pulling for you! Good work!
Knox
Knox,
We do not plan on doing any Dyno testing.
Our goal is to build an engine that looks like a stock Model A engine from the outside but has 5 main bearings, 8 counterweights, and 5 cam bearings. Both the rod and main bearings are 2-inch diameter and use an insert that was used from 1955 to 2003 in various General Motors engines.
The horsepower developed will depend on your choice of head, manifolds, carburetion, camshaft, ignition, and everything else need to complete an engine.
We are only supplying a 5 main cylinder block, 5 main crankshaft, and 4 connecting rods.
Terry
Hello,
spectacular job boys.
A couple of questions. Your set of rods look very nice but since you engineered a new crank why didn't you engineer in rods that are available over the counter and why not aluminum?
Do you think that your oil temp is high? Is there a way to add a cooler of some type even a cooler as used with automatic transmissions?
A lot of modern engines now have a squirter hole on top of the rod big end that squirts oil up under the piston head. Cooling is what I hear. Does that have any value in this application? Then you may be actually raising the oil temp with this?
In a rodded/banger version of this what would you suspect the top RPM would be? 3400 at 70 sustained is excellent.
Bob
Bob,
Thanks for the questions and comments.
There are no "over the counter" rods that are the same length. have the same wrist pin diameter, and take a 2-inch big end insert bearing. The rods also have a unique parting line that is necessary to clear the camshaft.
Aluminum rod material was not considered because it expands 3 times more than steel for the same temperature change. 6Al4v Titanium or beryllium would be my choice of material if cost were no problem.
The oil temperature was higher than expected. There was no cool air passing by the oil pan as would be if the engine was in a car. The engine in a car also wouldn't be run at 3100 RPM (75 MPH without overdrive) for any length of time. Yes, a cooler in line with an oil filter could be utilized.
Our brutal break-in of the engine confirmed that there was enough oil splash, flung, and mist to lubricate the cylinder walls, valve stems, lifters, and wrist pins.
From a finite element analysis of the connecting rods, they were lightly stressed at 5500 RPM while making 150 HP. Peak load is at TDC at the end of the exhaust stroke where the connecting rod needs to stop and reverse the direction of the piston.
Terry
Hey Terry,
I am impressed by YOU and your creation !! Your rapid progress is impressive, indeed !
I want one for my antique cast iron Riley 4 port !
It has patiently sat in storage for a long while.....waiting on your creation !
Richard
Rich,
Thanks for your comments.
I'm so grateful to have made the connection with John Lampl who has Jeep 4-cylinder blocks manufactured in China.
The new Model A engine parts with 5 main bearings and 4 connecting rods all being 2 inches in diameter should provide reliability for any OHV head.
Engineering and testing are complete and parts are anticipated to be for sale in early 2021.
Terry
Hi Terry
thank you for the follow ups. In spite of the deficiencies ( e.g. missing oil plug) it still sounds good to me. In fact, that it held up with low oil pressure is a plus. Imagine it with a Stipe pump or other high output pump. I would like to be on the list for potential buyers. Just let me know when its time
Pat
Pat,
The missing 3/8-16 UNC setscrew was definitely the cause of low oil pressure.
The new engine has 19 drilled oil passages in the cylinder block and several need plugs.
Engine assembly at the 3rd party evaluator without a checklist was rushed and very hectic, like having Larry, Moe, and Curley putting it together. We received the setscrew plugs from the manufacturer in a small plastic bag and used them all. Unfortunately, our specification to the manufacturer was one setscrew short.
I'm happy that the engine survived with low oil pressure and feel confident that it will handle most any abuse a new owner could dish out.
We are building a website that describes the project and will have a place for orders.
Hello Terry,
Thank you for the reply. What was the torque on the test engine at 3100 rpm and 2100 rpm? Thx
Regards, Wes
Wes,
We did not run on a dynamometer.
We are building new strong parts to replace the frail original parts.
Torque and horsepower will depend on your choice of head, carburetion, camshaft, etc.
Terry
Hi Terry and friends
my friend and myself are very interested to have those Model A Engines, as our Blocks (and those of our friends)
are in very bad conditions , and lightly rusted !
not surprising after more than 90 Years !!
please let mo know a.s.a.p. the Pre-Order will be opened
Questions :
If I order three (or more) Blocks , come those completed with Crankshaft/Bearings/Conrods etc
installed, or all parts lose ?
Are the Crankshaft/Bearings matched and controlled by Plastigage before shipped ?
Does the Bore of all four Cylinders have the standard Diameter ?
Do you also supply the modified lightened Flywheel ?
If yes, is the Crankshaft with the Flywheel balanced (on Bench) ?
Do you know the weight of one complet Block/Crankshaft/Conrods/Bearings/Seals/Flywheel
to estimate the shipping costes ?
Pls. Offer price for three (or more) cpl. Blocks
Thank you
Peter
Peter,
We are working on a website to take orders and deposits.
All parts are loose (packed separately to avoid damage).
The parts have very close tolerances and are verified before leaving the factory. We used Plastigage during assembly and found that all bearing clearances were .002 inch. John Lampl is our production and quality assurance manager and he will insist on quality.
The cylinder block bore has the standard diameter (3.875/3.876 inch) specified on the Ford drawing. We used Egge pistons machined to use modern narrow rings (Hastings 665), and the pistons fit the new cylinder block with .004 piston to wall clearance.
The new 30-pound flywheel will be offered as an option because many people already have a flywheel that they want to use.
The crankshaft and flywheel are dynamically balanced separately so there is no need for match marks.
I've been too busy to check weights, but my guess that the cylinder block with 5 mains, crankshaft with 8 counterweights, and larger connecting rods will be about 45 pounds heavier than stock. The new flywheel is 30 pounds without ring gear.
I'm replying to your Email along with John Lampl who is our team member that is responsible for shipping and dealing with customs. John's goal is to get the product to the customer at the lowest cost, and he has been in contact with several people in Europe.
Please contact John so that your order can be combined with others to avoid US Customs by shipping directly by container from China to Europe.
Terry
I love the concept of this new design and so does many of my friends in the Model A world I do not see any problem in marketing this engine.
I was wondering if I could start making monthly payments to help offset the money you have going out on this project even though my payment would only cover the cost of coffee and doughnuts for the month lol.
I would also like your thoughts on putting about 5 lbs. of boost from a turbocharger in this engine not to hot rod just for maintaining speed in the hills. I'm currently building a Model B with a 28 Chevrolet head, counter balanced crank and a hybrid Turbo I had built
Thank you
Steven
Steven,
Thanks for your interest in the new Model A engine.
I've added your contact information to the update list.
I'm the engineer on this project, and not involved with sales, deposits, or payments.
Finite element analysis is expensive and the connecting rod was lightly stressed at 5500 RPM while producing 200 HP.
I would love to see the new engine hot-rodded to see what it could do and see it used in airplanes and at Bonneville, however for legal reasons, I can only be legally responsible for the new engine parts when assembled as a stock engine producing 40 HP.
George Riley (
http://www.fordgarage.com/pages/rileysos.htm) in 1931 did 100 MPH in a Model A with the frail original engine design.
Terry
Hi,
I’m interested in purchasing a Model A engine when available. Please let me know the process to add my name to the list. Also, I would like to be considered to provide “peer” review of the engine design, assembly, and operation. I feel I am uniquely qualified to provide valuable input. Some of my notable qualifications are:
- Degrees in Automotive Maintenance and Business Management
- ASE Certified Master Technician for 30+ years.
- Test Engineer at a major automotive manufacturer R&D Center for 25+ years.
- Own/run an Automotive Repair and Machine Shop as a part-time business.
Thank you for you time and I look forward to your response!,
Daric
Daric,
Thanks for your interest in the new Model A engine.
Your contact information has been added to the update list.
We are working on a website to take orders and deposits.
We encourage and welcome "peer" evaluations to make our product better.
We are working on a "Builders Guide" that will be updated based on "peer" experiences.
Thank you for your comments
Terry
I have a 1929 model A that over heats. I've tried a lot to bring the heat down. A new or rebuilt motor is the way I'm leaning. You some great reviews and hope you can give me a rough idea what it will cost me? Can you help?
Jack
Jack,
Thanks for your interest in the new Model A engine.
If you have an overheating problem and it's not the radiator, thermostat, or water pump sucking air, then it may be water jackets clogged with rust.
The introductory price for the new engine is $3500 which includes a new 5 main cylinder block, crankshaft, and 4 connecting rods. This cost is equal to the cost of a quality rebuild.
I've added you to the Email update list.
I assume that you are familiar with the design and testing. If not, look here:
www.modelaengine.com
Re-Engineering the Model A Engine - New engines available early 2021 - Home
RE-ENGINEERING THE MODEL A ENGINE Terry Burtz, Campbell, CA (Copyright 2007 T. M. Burtz) Automotive engine design and analyses has changed dramatically and is vastly ...
www.modelaengine.com
Best news I have seen in a long time. I have followed Terry’s dream and efforts for many years . Good job indeed guys you have made a 77 year old Model’er very happy.
I am also ready to commit and be the first guy on the block to take delivery and not a moment too soon.
Please put me on the list to be a early purchaser of the “ Model A engine” and keep me posted with any additional or new information about the purchase time frames.
Mike
Michael,
I'm replying to your Email and sending a copy to Leonard Nettles (
[email protected]) who is responsible for the list of buyers.
We expect to have new engine parts near the end of Jan 2021.
Leonard, will you please reply to Michael regarding the list.
77 years is not old. I'm 76 years old.
Terry