The Ford Barn - View Single Post - The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

Terry Burtz, Calif · 06-16-2020, 11:40 PM

More comments, questions, and concerns.

Burner31,
yes, spelczek is your friend.............sometimes.
You should see what it takes to get to 300hp!!
This about 270 when dyno broke. John

John, Thanks for your reply. From your attached picture, I'm impressed that you were able to obtain 270 HP using a stock cylinder block in tension. If you were to cut a cylinder block in half horizontally through the valve chamber and cylinders, there is not very much area to accommodate tension loading. With that much HP, have you considered using exterior stay rods on both sides of the cylinder block that would be in tension and externally connect the head to the girdle to put the cylinder block in compression? Ask Google "Is cast iron stronger in compression or tension?"

Will complete engines be available? Leonard

Leonard, No, we are not in the engine building business. The only parts that we will provide are the cylinder block, crankshaft, and 4 connecting rods that are ready for assembly. You or your engine assembler can choose new or used stock or higher performance parts like pistons, camshaft, valve train, timing gears, head, oil pump, and everything else needed to make a complete engine that will perform and stay within your budget.

Hi Terry,
I know you folks are working hard to bring the dream into reality. As we get closer to production and a customer a build, I need to start ordering parts to assemble the new engine. I will not use any used parts except for the oil pan. If you made an engine parts list to complete your test engine, would you mind sharing?
One additional thought. I normally use gas that has no alcohol when possible. On extended trips mostly a 10% mixture is found. I put in hardened valve seats and modern valves so I can use either. Will I need to do this on the new block as well?
Thanks, Kerry

Kerry, Thanks for having faith in what we are doing.
I don't have a list of parts, but we are only making the cylinder block, crankshaft, and connecting rods. Everything else can be stock Ford or aftermarket if it has stock interfaces.
The new cylinder block has hard seats in the 4 exhaust ports. They are MAHLE part number 218-7535, and available in 2 over-sizes if ever needed.

Thanks Terry for specifying harden seats. New valves and we are good to go. No one could have done this except you. Thank you and your team for your dedication and tenacity. Kerry

Thanks for your efforts to get a “new Engine” for the Model A. If you still have an update list I would like to be added to it.
Thanks Frank

Frank, your Email address had been added to the update list.

HELLO,I OWN A 30 FORD BOATAILED SPEEDSTER SPECIAL, LOOKING FOR A MORE PERIOD CORRECT ENGINE. WHAT PRICE RANGE FOR THE PACKAGE,ETA,HOW DO YOU FEEL PERFORMANCE WILL COMPARE TO (DONAVNE D) RICHARD

Richard, Regarding "period correct". we have strived to provide a product that has an external appearance that is identical to an original Model A engine and will have all interfaces for bolt on parts identical to original.

The price range will be between $3K and $4K for the cylinder block, crankshaft, and connecting rods. Exact pricing is dependent on tariffs, customs, transportation, and several other factors. We have firm prices from the factories that are manufacturing the first run of parts, however, those prices are subject to change with future orders.

Many people have been following this project since 2007 with encouraging comments, and we need to offer a discount to them so they will be able to buy 1 set of parts at close to the dealer price for a limited time.

From my observations of Donovan engines, they look good from about 30 feet away, but as you get closer, differences from stock become obvious, and a lot of interfaces for attaching parts are not stock.

Regarding performance, check out what Piaranios has done with stock cylinder blocks. https://automotiveamerican.com/2019/...d-engine-dyno/

Our new engine has an exterior appearance identical to stock, but with 5 main and 4 connecting rod bearings that are larger in diameter and 8 crankshaft counterweights, the new engine will have similar performance to what Piaranios tested, but have longer life due to larger bearings, 8 crankshaft counterweights, and less crankshaft flexing.

Hi Terry, I’ve been reading about all your good work from the UK, I’m keeping my fingers crossed the verification process goes to plan. Is there a possibility of shipping to the UK? Thank you, Anton

Anton, yes, we will ship to the UK or anywhere in the world. Do you have a dealer with the resources to buy 5 at a time? If so, we would like to ship from China directly to the UK to avoid you having to pay customs twice.

I am very interested in your project. Would be interested in the finished product. I am building a number of different heads. Cook, Roof, Rutherford, and Winfield. Always having difficulty locating good blocks.
Stay in touch and keep me up dated. Thank you...Kevin

Kevin, You and I have the same passion for speed equipment to enhance the performance of the Model A Ford engine, and I think that you will be happy with the parts that we will provide.
Good stock cylinder blocks and crankshafts are getting harder to find, and they are not the best design compared to newer engines.

Please add my name if you have a list, Gerald 256-310-6XXX

Gerald, You are on the Email list for updates. We don't have another list because we don't have a product to sell that has passed verification. If and when the "new engine" meets our approval, everyone on the Email list and MARC and MAFCA chapters will be notified. Leonard, one of our team members will be responsible to create a list and fulfill orders as they are received. Leonard's contact information will be published after the new engine passes verification and the factories in China are given the go-ahead for production.

As an engineer myself (electrical) I am very excited about this new design. If it reaches production then I would like to obtain one or more assemblies for trial use in my personal Model A's and for installation in customer vehicles. David

David, Thanks for your comments.

I am very interested in having a more reliable, Model A engine with more power. I want to be able to cruise on the hi-way with traffic at 70 mph and destroy my engine. If this engine gets completed, I would be interested in a long block, and knowing what to cost would be.
Thank you, and good luck in your adventure. Mike

Mike, I think that you meant to say "not destroy" instead of destroy. We plan to test the new engine at a high RPM on a test stand for a length of time to prove reliability, and then go hill climbing. An original Model A crankshaft has 3 main bearings that are 1 5/8 inch diameter, and connecting rod bearings that are 1 1/2 inch diameter and no counterweights. The new engine has 5 main bearings, 8 counterweights, and all bearing journals are 2-inch diameter, so it should be more reliable. For liability reasons, I cannot support your idea of keeping up with traffic at 70 MPH, just like I couldn't support the use of the new engine to power an airplane in an earlier post. We are supplying a new cylinder block, crankshaft, and connecting rods. You and/or your engine builder will choose all attaching parts (new or used) to build an engine. We are not short or long block engine builders.

The distance between main bearing bolts is 2 inches. how can you use a 2 inch main bearing without rubbing the bolts? Ralph

Ralph, Thanks for your question. To maintain the original external appearance for front and center main bearings, the new engine uses studs that are in the same location as the original main bolts. The upper portion of the studs are 1/2-20 UNF and use castellated nuts and cotter pins as original. These studs are reduced to 7/16 inch diameter where they pass through the cylinder block/main cap interface, and the main caps are retained with 7/16-20 UNF nuts. The nominal clearance between the 2-inch crankshaft journal and the 7/16 studs is .03125 inch.

Hi, I read your crankshaft section, but what do you mean with 100%. Is 100% with rod and pistons weight in calculated in the crankshaft counterweights?
I am from Norway not very good is technical english.
Regards, Bjornar

Bjornar, Your technical English is good. When I say 100%, the counterweights are sized to exert a downward force equal to the upward force of stopping the piston at TDC. In other words, there are no bending forces in the crankshaft from stopping the piston. Note in the article that the counterweights are almost 1/2 of a circle and the crankshaft weighs 90 pounds. I have since changed the design so that the counterweights are smaller and not 100%. Everything in engineering is a compromise and I made the change to lessen the mass of the crankshaft for faster acceleration. The crankshaft counterweights could be drilled opposite of the connecting rod journals and have tungsten added to get back to 100% if desired. In the equation, SE is the small end weight of the connecting rod including the weight of the piston, wrist pin, and rings.

06-16-2020, 11:40 PM	#117
Terry Burtz, Calif Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Campbell,CA, USA Posts: 319	Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track. More comments, questions, and concerns. Burner31, yes, spelczek is your friend.............sometimes. You should see what it takes to get to 300hp!! This about 270 when dyno broke. John John, Thanks for your reply. From your attached picture, I'm impressed that you were able to obtain 270 HP using a stock cylinder block in tension. If you were to cut a cylinder block in half horizontally through the valve chamber and cylinders, there is not very much area to accommodate tension loading. With that much HP, have you considered using exterior stay rods on both sides of the cylinder block that would be in tension and externally connect the head to the girdle to put the cylinder block in compression? Ask Google "Is cast iron stronger in compression or tension?" Will complete engines be available? Leonard Leonard, No, we are not in the engine building business. The only parts that we will provide are the cylinder block, crankshaft, and 4 connecting rods that are ready for assembly. You or your engine assembler can choose new or used stock or higher performance parts like pistons, camshaft, valve train, timing gears, head, oil pump, and everything else needed to make a complete engine that will perform and stay within your budget. Hi Terry, I know you folks are working hard to bring the dream into reality. As we get closer to production and a customer a build, I need to start ordering parts to assemble the new engine. I will not use any used parts except for the oil pan. If you made an engine parts list to complete your test engine, would you mind sharing? One additional thought. I normally use gas that has no alcohol when possible. On extended trips mostly a 10% mixture is found. I put in hardened valve seats and modern valves so I can use either. Will I need to do this on the new block as well? Thanks, Kerry Kerry, Thanks for having faith in what we are doing. I don't have a list of parts, but we are only making the cylinder block, crankshaft, and connecting rods. Everything else can be stock Ford or aftermarket if it has stock interfaces. The new cylinder block has hard seats in the 4 exhaust ports. They are MAHLE part number 218-7535, and available in 2 over-sizes if ever needed. Thanks Terry for specifying harden seats. New valves and we are good to go. No one could have done this except you. Thank you and your team for your dedication and tenacity. Kerry Thanks for your efforts to get a “new Engine” for the Model A. If you still have an update list I would like to be added to it. Thanks Frank Frank, your Email address had been added to the update list. HELLO,I OWN A 30 FORD BOATAILED SPEEDSTER SPECIAL, LOOKING FOR A MORE PERIOD CORRECT ENGINE. WHAT PRICE RANGE FOR THE PACKAGE,ETA,HOW DO YOU FEEL PERFORMANCE WILL COMPARE TO (DONAVNE D) RICHARD Richard, Regarding "period correct". we have strived to provide a product that has an external appearance that is identical to an original Model A engine and will have all interfaces for bolt on parts identical to original. The price range will be between $3K and $4K for the cylinder block, crankshaft, and connecting rods. Exact pricing is dependent on tariffs, customs, transportation, and several other factors. We have firm prices from the factories that are manufacturing the first run of parts, however, those prices are subject to change with future orders. Many people have been following this project since 2007 with encouraging comments, and we need to offer a discount to them so they will be able to buy 1 set of parts at close to the dealer price for a limited time. From my observations of Donovan engines, they look good from about 30 feet away, but as you get closer, differences from stock become obvious, and a lot of interfaces for attaching parts are not stock. Regarding performance, check out what Piaranios has done with stock cylinder blocks. https://automotiveamerican.com/2019/...d-engine-dyno/ Our new engine has an exterior appearance identical to stock, but with 5 main and 4 connecting rod bearings that are larger in diameter and 8 crankshaft counterweights, the new engine will have similar performance to what Piaranios tested, but have longer life due to larger bearings, 8 crankshaft counterweights, and less crankshaft flexing. Hi Terry, I’ve been reading about all your good work from the UK, I’m keeping my fingers crossed the verification process goes to plan. Is there a possibility of shipping to the UK? Thank you, Anton Anton, yes, we will ship to the UK or anywhere in the world. Do you have a dealer with the resources to buy 5 at a time? If so, we would like to ship from China directly to the UK to avoid you having to pay customs twice. I am very interested in your project. Would be interested in the finished product. I am building a number of different heads. Cook, Roof, Rutherford, and Winfield. Always having difficulty locating good blocks. Stay in touch and keep me up dated. Thank you...Kevin Kevin, You and I have the same passion for speed equipment to enhance the performance of the Model A Ford engine, and I think that you will be happy with the parts that we will provide. Good stock cylinder blocks and crankshafts are getting harder to find, and they are not the best design compared to newer engines. Please add my name if you have a list, Gerald 256-310-6XXX Gerald, You are on the Email list for updates. We don't have another list because we don't have a product to sell that has passed verification. If and when the "new engine" meets our approval, everyone on the Email list and MARC and MAFCA chapters will be notified. Leonard, one of our team members will be responsible to create a list and fulfill orders as they are received. Leonard's contact information will be published after the new engine passes verification and the factories in China are given the go-ahead for production. As an engineer myself (electrical) I am very excited about this new design. If it reaches production then I would like to obtain one or more assemblies for trial use in my personal Model A's and for installation in customer vehicles. David David, Thanks for your comments. I am very interested in having a more reliable, Model A engine with more power. I want to be able to cruise on the hi-way with traffic at 70 mph and destroy my engine. If this engine gets completed, I would be interested in a long block, and knowing what to cost would be. Thank you, and good luck in your adventure. Mike Mike, I think that you meant to say "not destroy" instead of destroy. We plan to test the new engine at a high RPM on a test stand for a length of time to prove reliability, and then go hill climbing. An original Model A crankshaft has 3 main bearings that are 1 5/8 inch diameter, and connecting rod bearings that are 1 1/2 inch diameter and no counterweights. The new engine has 5 main bearings, 8 counterweights, and all bearing journals are 2-inch diameter, so it should be more reliable. For liability reasons, I cannot support your idea of keeping up with traffic at 70 MPH, just like I couldn't support the use of the new engine to power an airplane in an earlier post. We are supplying a new cylinder block, crankshaft, and connecting rods. You and/or your engine builder will choose all attaching parts (new or used) to build an engine. We are not short or long block engine builders. The distance between main bearing bolts is 2 inches. how can you use a 2 inch main bearing without rubbing the bolts? Ralph Ralph, Thanks for your question. To maintain the original external appearance for front and center main bearings, the new engine uses studs that are in the same location as the original main bolts. The upper portion of the studs are 1/2-20 UNF and use castellated nuts and cotter pins as original. These studs are reduced to 7/16 inch diameter where they pass through the cylinder block/main cap interface, and the main caps are retained with 7/16-20 UNF nuts. The nominal clearance between the 2-inch crankshaft journal and the 7/16 studs is .03125 inch. Hi, I read your crankshaft section, but what do you mean with 100%. Is 100% with rod and pistons weight in calculated in the crankshaft counterweights? I am from Norway not very good is technical english. Regards, Bjornar Bjornar, Your technical English is good. When I say 100%, the counterweights are sized to exert a downward force equal to the upward force of stopping the piston at TDC. In other words, there are no bending forces in the crankshaft from stopping the piston. Note in the article that the counterweights are almost 1/2 of a circle and the crankshaft weighs 90 pounds. I have since changed the design so that the counterweights are smaller and not 100%. Everything in engineering is a compromise and I made the change to lessen the mass of the crankshaft for faster acceleration. The crankshaft counterweights could be drilled opposite of the connecting rod journals and have tungsten added to get back to 100% if desired. In the equation, SE is the small end weight of the connecting rod including the weight of the piston, wrist pin, and rings.