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Old182 · 01-01-2014, 07:22 PM

Great response, MikeK!

While not a "front burner" concern, there are a few issues that deserve some consideration. The take away from the article in the Model A News should be: 1. If phase separation occurs, then the concentration of ethanol/water (possibly contaminated water) would be increased at the bottom of the fuel tank and the possibility of corrosion (attack?) of the terne plate would be increased, as would corrosion of any bare steel. It would no longer be E10, but some higher concentration of ethanol mixed with water, perhaps from acid rain. 2. While E10 has been around for decades with very few tank problems, the chemistry is there for problems to occur under certain conditions, notably those mentioned above. It's not an "alarming" situation by any means, but shouldn't be ignored either.

According to the SAE Automotive Fuels Handbook, Chapter 11, Section 11.5.3: "Such materials as terne plate (lead/tin-coated steel used in fuel tank construction), zinc die castings, and aluminum fuel system components are all attacked by alcohols..." (their words, not mine). I don't wish to dispute what you wrote, but question whether Oakridge tested with ethanol (you mention they used rain water) and at what concentration. As we've all seen, there are a lot of rusted Model A tanks that, somehow, over the years have lost their terne plate. Even using a deterioration rate of 0.0004"/10 years, a tank subject to E10 for 30 years (like mine) will have lost over 0.001" of terne plate by now just from the ethanol (not counting the previous deterioration), and E15 will only exacerbate the deterioration. The question should be how much terne did I start out with and how much do I have left?

Please don't misunderstand: this does not keep me up at night and I am not an alarmist; at no time during the 54 years that I've owned my coupe have I added anything to the gas tank (except Bill Hirsch yellow sealer when I rebuilt the car in 1988) and no problems so far. I believe, as you and others do, that there is no cause for alarm because of E10, but I also believe that if a tank is subject to long periods of non-use in a humid area where the fuel is E10, then it's a wise idea to run the car and replenish the fuel often to preclude rust and the further deterioration of the terne.

01-01-2014, 07:22 PM	#17
Old182 Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Newburgh, NY Posts: 222	Re: Ethanol and Tern Finish inside Gas Tank Great response, MikeK! While not a "front burner" concern, there are a few issues that deserve some consideration. The take away from the article in the Model A News should be: 1. If phase separation occurs, then the concentration of ethanol/water (possibly contaminated water) would be increased at the bottom of the fuel tank and the possibility of corrosion (attack?) of the terne plate would be increased, as would corrosion of any bare steel. It would no longer be E10, but some higher concentration of ethanol mixed with water, perhaps from acid rain. 2. While E10 has been around for decades with very few tank problems, the chemistry is there for problems to occur under certain conditions, notably those mentioned above. It's not an "alarming" situation by any means, but shouldn't be ignored either. According to the SAE Automotive Fuels Handbook, Chapter 11, Section 11.5.3: "Such materials as terne plate (lead/tin-coated steel used in fuel tank construction), zinc die castings, and aluminum fuel system components are all attacked by alcohols..." (their words, not mine). I don't wish to dispute what you wrote, but question whether Oakridge tested with ethanol (you mention they used rain water) and at what concentration. As we've all seen, there are a lot of rusted Model A tanks that, somehow, over the years have lost their terne plate. Even using a deterioration rate of 0.0004"/10 years, a tank subject to E10 for 30 years (like mine) will have lost over 0.001" of terne plate by now just from the ethanol (not counting the previous deterioration), and E15 will only exacerbate the deterioration. The question should be how much terne did I start out with and how much do I have left? Please don't misunderstand: this does not keep me up at night and I am not an alarmist; at no time during the 54 years that I've owned my coupe have I added anything to the gas tank (except Bill Hirsch yellow sealer when I rebuilt the car in 1988) and no problems so far. I believe, as you and others do, that there is no cause for alarm because of E10, but I also believe that if a tank is subject to long periods of non-use in a humid area where the fuel is E10, then it's a wise idea to run the car and replenish the fuel often to preclude rust and the further deterioration of the terne.