The Ford Barn - A Rare Holley Prototype Carb?

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- - A Rare Holley Prototype Carb? - Lots of Photos (https://www.fordbarn.com/forum/showthread.php?t=21763)

A Rare Holley Prototype Carb? - Lots of Photos

Hey there. A few weeks ago, OldWhizzer here on the Barn posted a thread asking about an unusual Model A Carb. I was fascinated to see it, and especially when Ray In La Mesa brought up the fact that it looked like the experimental Holly carb that Vince Falter wrote about on fordgarage.com. This really sparked my curiosity about the carb.

http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w...lAParts/02.jpg

Fast forward a few days and I saw the carb on eBay. This is the kind of strange Model A stuff that gets me excited, so I placed my bid and won it. OldWhizzer packed it really well and I was happy it arrived safely. It wasn't out of the box for more than 5 minutes before I had it laid out in pieces on my desk here at work snapping pictures to share with you guys.

http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w...s/IMG_0701.jpg

http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w...s/IMG_0727.jpg

Quote:

Here is a link to Vince Falter's Ford Garage article from Feb 2001 about what he believes to be an experimental Holley Carb that never went into production for the Model A. http://www.fordgarage.com/pages/holleycarb.htm

http://www.fordgarage.com/images/holleycarb5s.jpg

He states that his carburetor came from one of the Henry Ford Museum & Greenfield Village property dispersal auctions in the late 1980s and he speculates that it may have been a prototype carburetor that never went into production.

On his carburetor is the patent number 1,742,376 which shows a carburetor unlike the one pictured, but that the patent number was granted on Jan 7th of 1930, so his carburetor must date later than that since the tag holds that number rather than saying Patent Pending.

http://www.fordgarage.com/images/holleycarb2s.jpg

Here is Vince's carburetor. More photos at his link.

http://www.fordgarage.com/images/holleycarb4s.jpg

http://www.fordgarage.com/images/holleycarb1s.jpg

Upon internal examination of the carburetor I just purchased, it is apparent that this one I just purchased was made by the same manufacturer. Internally, the needle adjustment valve, bowl shape, brass float, venturi tube, the white felt gaskets used, etc appear to be exactly like the Holley 440 carburetor pictured on Vince's page. Externally, my carburetor is held together by the bailing wire, and the vented cover on the bottom was difficult to remove because of the choke shaft sticking through the hole causing interference.

Here are a few pics of my carburetor.

http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w...s/IMG_0718.jpg

http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w...s/IMG_0705.jpg

A few other observations were the welded vented screen on the bottom, but how nicely it was finished on the outside.

http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w...s/IMG_0735.jpg

http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w...s/IMG_0736.jpg

Also, the GAV is brazed inside the bowl, but also finished very nicely on the outside.

http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w...s/IMG_0716.jpg

http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w...s/IMG_0717.jpg

I believe that my carb may have been a one off test carburetor for visual inspection due to the high quality of exterior finish, and there is a faint smell of gas and oily residue at the bottom of the vented screen, so it was also run on an engine at one time.

It may also be a slightly earlier variation on the once Vince pictured because of the fact that there is no sign of a name badge ever being mounted on mine, only the numbers on the top, and the fact that the vented screen on the bottom is SO hard to remove that the design was done away with, requiring the bailing wire to be rethought into the tabbed wings on the bowl.

http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w...s/IMG_0711.jpg

I have not yet tried to run the carburetor because the brittle cork gasket around the bowl broke when I took it apart. I would ultimately love to take this by Dennis Piranio's shop and have him put it on the dyno to get more performance information about it.

Please review the additional photos below, and I look forward to the discussion that this thread brings.

Re: Another Rare Holley Prototype Carb? - Lots of Photos

Re: A Rare Holley Prototype Carb? - Lots of Photos

Very nice , THANK YOU ! for the pictures... its really neat.

Re: A Rare Holley Prototype Carb? - Lots of Photos

I also think it's neat.

What are your plans for it? Are you going to try and use it?

Re: A Rare Holley Prototype Carb? - Lots of Photos

Thanks! I'm excited about it as well.

Yes. I would like to replace the two cork gaskets and try it out to see if it gets better gas mileage or more performance.

Is there a site where you can order your defined ID / OD neoprene gaskets, or should I try to carefully make my own rings with some cork and an exacto knife?

Re: A Rare Holley Prototype Carb? - Lots of Photos

You might try McMaster-Carr.

Re: A Rare Holley Prototype Carb? - Lots of Photos

That is really interesting! Good luck getting it to run and be sure to let us know how it works out. It looks a lot simplier than a Zenith......

Re: A Rare Holley Prototype Carb? - Lots of Photos

My only question is, would a prototype have a patent tag on it?

Re: A Rare Holley Prototype Carb? - Lots of Photos

Very interesting, I would try O-rings, it looks like the thickness is important, there seems to be seals on 2 jets by the GAV boss --not having leakage there could be important.

If you know someone that rebuilds auto transmissions see if they have a "leftover o-ring/seal box", that would have many choices , plumbing supply stores usually have good assortments, also hydraulic hose--jack repair places.

Re: A Rare Holley Prototype Carb? - Lots of Photos

That is SO COOL! Glad I could send you in the right direction. Let us know how it runs.

Re: A Rare Holley Prototype Carb? - Lots of Photos

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris Haynes (Post 119378)

My only question is, would a prototype have a patent tag on it?

Absolutely.

Many things were and are patented that are never even built.

Re: A Rare Holley Prototype Carb? - Lots of Photos

Quote:

Originally Posted by Elrod (Post 119238)

Is there a site where you can order your defined ID / OD neoprene gaskets, or should I try to carefully make my own rings with some cork and an exacto knife?

if you have access to a lathe... making a sharpened round tool to punch out any size you want wouldnt be much work...

buying tubing and sanding/filing to have a sharp edge is also an option if necissary

thanks for all the pics
Zach

Re: A Rare Holley Prototype Carb? - Lots of Photos

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kurt in NJ (Post 119407)

it looks like the thickness is important, there seems to be seals on 2 jets by the GAV boss --not having leakage there could be important.

GOOD POINT! Makes total sense since there are small felt "gaskets" at the tops of those jets. My mind was so focused on solving the perimeter gasket issue, I forgot to consider how it would affect the internals. Thanks for bringing that up Kurt before going through the trouble to make something too thick and then it not working.

Quote:

Originally Posted by SUHRsc (Post 119518)

if you have access to a lathe... making a sharpened round tool to punch out any size you want wouldnt be much work...Zach

Great idea Zach. A fellow THEM! member here owns a machine shop, but I may go the O-Ring route and see if anything exists before tying up one of his machines.

Re: A Rare Holley Prototype Carb? - Lots of Photos

This great post got me to thinking about an unusual (at least to me) carb in my garage ... many characteristics of a Zenith but has a brass "Simmons" tag riveted on top ... no where near as interesting as the one above but i would appreciate any info anyone has to offer.

Re: A Rare Holley Prototype Carb? - Lots of Photos

Kind of looks like a fore-runner of the Holley "Centri-Flow" that would be used on Ford - Merc - Lincoln V-8s in the early 1950's...

Neat carb; thanks for all the pics !

Re: A Rare Holley Prototype Carb? - Lots of Photos

Hey Charles - Cool Carburetor. The Simmons Carburetor company was known for building "better performance" carburetors and also a Simmons Super Power cylinder head for the Model T crowd. I can only read the 1st patent on your carburetor, and the following link is the patent information for your carburetor. http://www.freepatentsonline.com/1584759.pdf

I found this discussion about the Simmons Carburetor Company, and one person claims they re-branded these as "The Wizzard" and sold them at Western Auto.
http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages...tml?1289869004

Now, your carburetor is clearly a Model A carb due to the GAV adjustment, so probably an aftermarket carburetor designed for a little better performance.

Simmons may have established themselves with the Model T owners which saw lots of after market parts for their cars, and attempted to move into the Model A arena in the aftermarket segment.

Who knows, maybe that is what my Holley carb was also.

Re: A Rare Holley Prototype Carb? - Lots of Photos

Hi Charles

Running your patent numbers thru Google or the USPTO
should give you the inventor and some filing/issue date info.
The tag in your photo is hard to read, but the first # appears
to be 1584759, but I could not read the second tag number.

George A. Eynon
Parma Heights, Ohio
Carburetor
Patent number: 1584759
Filing date: Mar 14, 1925
Issue date: May 18, 1926
http://tinyurl.com/2bj8y28

Regards
Art

Re: A Rare Holley Prototype Carb? - Lots of Photos

might this then be a "T" item? I note that the bowl has a fitting unlike the "A" style i am familiar with. seems someone with a Simmons cylinder head might have a better use for it than I do. open to offers/swap.