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-   -   Radius ball cap (https://www.fordbarn.com/forum/showthread.php?t=287220)

DNLs1930 09-14-2020 01:13 PM

Radius ball cap
 

Went on a really fun outing with the Fort Wort Model A Club this past weekend and while the car did wonderful (seeing lots of returns on maintenance performed!!) I do have a bit of steering wondering and will be going through the Les Andrews book but did noticed the Radius ball "pops" with steering input while static. No pop or clunk when the car is in motion.



I crawled under the car and can actually see the "pop" so guessing time for some maintenance in that area...



Other than the replacement cap, felt and "washer spacer" anything unusual I need to know before I dig in to this?



The ball itself could be bad which some say weld and reshape but hoping it is a lot simpler than that...

Brentwood Bob 09-14-2020 03:09 PM

Re: Radius ball cap
 

Any thoughts from members of the club that could help diagnosing the issue of wandering?

Patrick L. 09-14-2020 04:02 PM

Re: Radius ball cap
 

That ball should be oily/greasy. Is it an original type or the rubber sleeve style ?
There is a 'shim' that the vendors sell, but, another old way is too install large washer under the ball.

Synchro909 09-14-2020 06:05 PM

Re: Radius ball cap
 

Quote:

Originally Posted by Patrick L. (Post 1931571)
That ball should be oily/greasy. Is it an original type or the rubber sleeve style ?
There is a 'shim' that the vendors sell, but, another old way is too install large washer under the ball.

I had a very worn ball so I put one of those washers on it. It didn't take long for the washer to end up UNDER the ball. I welded the washer in place on top (that's where the wear is) with plenty of weld till the washer basically didn't exist any more. I then ground it all off to round again using a gauge like a washer to check for round. No problems since.

Jacksonlll 09-14-2020 07:17 PM

Re: Radius ball cap
 

Check that toe in.

Joe K 09-14-2020 08:24 PM

Re: Radius ball cap
 

The usual issue with "wandering" is not so much with the radius rods/ball as with the shaft for the steering sector having worn. Steering sector shaft "shucks" back and forth. This can also cause "free play" at the steering wheel.

The check for this is to raise the front wheels (both) and then grab a tire between the two hands and with steering wheel stationary (you might need to rope it down) see if the pitman arm top (where attached to the shaft) moves. It should be as tight as can be made.

Making it tighter usually means new steering sector/shaft, possibly but not necessarily a new worm, and new bushings in the housing.

Many vendors now sell "rebuilt" sector shaft/housings using Torrington needle bearings and seals. The consensus among many is that this is a defective fix in that the sector shaft is not hardened, and the needles "brinnell" the shaft and create a "lumpy" feel to the wheel. Torrington needles are good in a rolling application, but the needles are largely stationary and the unit pressure is too high in this application.

Joe K

DNLs1930 09-14-2020 08:26 PM

Re: Radius ball cap
 

Is there a spec on the ball (I'm sure there is just need to know where to find it) so I know howout of spec it is?



I have read the "finder washer and ball peen hammer" solution and it works for me if thats all I need to do.

The wondering is steering box related (I think) and will try the adjustments first and go from there. Toe would be easy to check just not sure how many little things can add up to some wonder. The car responds well just seems to have a little too much free play in the steering input.

Synchro909 09-14-2020 09:59 PM

Re: Radius ball cap
 

Quote:

Originally Posted by DNLs1930 (Post 1931687)
Is there a spec on the ball (I'm sure there is just need to know where to find it) so I know howout of spec it is?

From memory, the ball is 1.5" diameter.

PalAl 09-15-2020 05:17 AM

Re: Radius ball cap
 

I have never used this site but others have said it a great resource, just a thought

https://www.thehenryford.org/collect...arts-drawings/

dave in australia 09-15-2020 05:23 AM

Re: Radius ball cap
 

One of my way earlier posts was on how I repaired some of my radius rod ball and spares.
I milled the ball off, leaving a .750" shaft. Threaded the shaft to .750" UNF, then bought a ball, drill and tapped it to suit. Then screwed the ball on with loctite, and as a last securing agent, drill down the thread and inserted a roll pin.

SAJ 09-15-2020 06:24 AM

Re: Radius ball cap
 

2 Attachment(s)
Nice one Dave. My ball was round but loose in the socket. I used a vice to press a brass cup freeze plug into the socket using the wishbone ball to form it as shown. It matched the socket and ball perfectly and should wear well being brass with an oil hole drilled in the middle.
I don't know why the ball was still round but very loose. Maybe the socket was from a rubber ball installation and the ball was missing before I got the car
SAJ in NZ

DNLs1930 09-15-2020 09:36 PM

Re: Radius ball cap
 

3 Attachment(s)
Pretty sure a "Fender washer is not going to fix this problem; and I guess this would be the reason the rubber ball is not recommended...



YIKES!!!

DNLs1930 09-15-2020 09:57 PM

Re: Radius ball cap
 

1 Attachment(s)
Quote:

Originally Posted by DNLs1930 (Post 1932116)
Pretty sure a "Fender washer is not going to fix this problem; and I guess this would be the reason the rubber ball is not recommended...



YIKES!!!

Mine appears to be worn... (just a little...)
Guess I will be cutting off the ball and replacing it or the entire arm...:eek:

Aretino 09-16-2020 07:00 AM

Re: Radius ball cap
 

My car came with the rubber ball setup. I disassemble and inspect the ball routinely then replace the rubber ball as it deteriorates. Not sure why its not a recommended modification?

Patrick L. 09-16-2020 07:15 AM

Re: Radius ball cap
 

The washer is a good temporary fix until the ball can be fixed. Its size is 1.5".

The rubber sleeve was used by Ford after the A. I think it started in '32 but not quite sure of the year.

The 2 styles/systems are not the same.

I think in the OP he was just looking for a temporary quick fix while trying to diagnose a problem. His question related to the ball.

Benson 09-16-2020 08:48 AM

Re: Radius ball cap
 

There are two types as mentioned:

1. The original Repro in Berts catalog A-3440 RADIUS CAP SET - ORIGINAL STYLE

2. The rubber ball type

The catalog photo will tell you which type that you have or combination of the two types that you have..

NOTE: The parts CAN NOT be mixed between the two types ... doing so can result in a loose radius ball.

I have not used the rubber ball for more than 50 years as it did not work very well or last very long.

The rubber ball quickly turns to mush.

ryanheacox 09-16-2020 12:15 PM

Re: Radius ball cap
 

My car had the rubber ball style and never gave me any trouble. I decided to put a new rubber on when I pulled the transmission and was surprised to see that the ball measured a perfectly round 1.5".


I suspect that is why I never had a problem with it, the rubber was nicely compressed in the caps and didn't have a small oblong radius ball bouncing around and wearing it out. Because of that I'm the odd man out that actually likes the rubber ball setup. I do think that either setup requires a correctly shaped full size radius ball though.

Purdy Swoft 09-16-2020 12:41 PM

Re: Radius ball cap
 

I've used the rubber ball cover on all of the model A's that I have owned for over fifty years with good service . If the ball is badly worn , don't expect the rubber ball cover fix to work very well .

Benson 09-16-2020 04:23 PM

Re: Radius ball cap
 

Quote:

Originally Posted by DNLs1930 (Post 1932122)
Mine appears to be worn... (just a little...)
Guess I will be cutting off the ball and replacing it or the entire arm...:eek:

FYI:

There several different ways to replace the ball.

Find out how it will be done BEFORE you cut the wishbone!

1. One cuts the ball off like in post 13 above showing the photo above.


2. The second works differently as in photo below.
https://modelastore.com/index.php?ro...oduct_id=12627


3. Third one machines ball off leaving a stud about 1/2 or 5/8ths long. Then a ball with hole in it is welded onto the stud after stud is machined to fit
Just saying ....

dmaxweb 02-18-2021 04:57 PM

Re: Radius ball cap
 

Quote:

Originally Posted by SAJ (Post 1931790)
Nice one Dave. My ball was round but loose in the socket. I used a vice to press a brass cup freeze plug into the socket using the wishbone ball to form it as shown. It matched the socket and ball perfectly and should wear well being brass with an oil hole drilled in the middle.
I don't know why the ball was still round but very loose. Maybe the socket was from a rubber ball installation and the ball was missing before I got the car
SAJ in NZ

What size brass cup freeze plug did you use?


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