Distributor Seized
 

Took the "A" for another shakedown run today. Cruising along just fine for an hour or so, and it just quit. Figured a condenser or something. Going through my roadside checks, no spark. I pop the cap to look at the points, and crank the engine. I noticed the rotor was not turning, not good.
Towed it home and started tearing into it. Figured it may be the oil pump drive or the cam gears sheared. I pulled the timing plug out and turned it around, cranked the engine and felt the cam gear spinning. Some good news.
Pulled the distributor and the lower shaft is rusted to hell and it is frozen/seized. Pulled the side cover and the got the oil pump drive gear out. Bunch of the teeth got sheared off, so it's shot. was able to get a magnet and pull the big chunks out of the opening, but I can still see an few pieces down there.
So I'm gonna pull the pan to be sure I got all of the pieces, and might as well put a new oil pump in while I'm there. My question is, is there anything crazy I need to worry about swapping out oil pumps, etc? I've never dug that deep into an "A" motor yet and want to be sure springs do not go flying or something.
Thank you in advance.

Re: Distributor Seized
 

I figured the fiber timing gear would break first, you might want to check that to make sure it didn't get cracked or something. I guess it could have been worse, sounds like you have a handle on it.

Re: Distributor Seized
 

The oil pump is held up into place by a fairly large spring on the bottom of the oil pump pressing against the bottom of the oil pan.

When you remove the pan the oil pump is free to drop away from the engine. Sometimes is stays in place just waiting for you to move your head underneath of it and then it will fall out at that very moment.
Just reach in and give it a tug straight down as you lower the oil pan.
Rebuild kits are available for oil pumps if you want to go that route instead of purchasing a new one.
There is a small threaded opening on the right side of the block with a plug in it.
You can remove that plug and use a special threaded insert and bolt that screws in there and will hold the pump in place. Not necessary for removing the oil pump but very handy for installing it. It is a tapered pipe threaded fitting so do not use a bolt in that hole. It will damage things.
Les Andrews Mechanics Volume One Mechanics Hand Book has very good instructions on doing this.

Re: Distributor Seized
 

Any thing in the pan can just lay there. The pump will not pick it up and it cannot go anywhere. Hey just trying to save removing the pan.

Re: Distributor Seized
 

Thanks everyone. I just read Les's book again to get an idea what to expect. It definitely seems like I got lucky so far. If all looks good in the pan (no shredded cam/timing gears) then I'll reassemble and run with it. It's not like here in Jersey I'm going anywhere...

Re: Distributor Seized
 

Did you ever oil the distributor? Have heard some stories of shafts seizing because the owner never oiled it but it seems wierd that it would be all rusty.

Re: Distributor Seized
 

You can buy all the oil pump parts. Your oil pump should be ok. It’s a gear pump and should outlast 3 or 4 model A engines. Maybe put new bushings in if they are worn. CLEAN SCREEN. Sounds like what you need is oil pump drive gear assembly (Brattons PN 9551) or you can just replace the gear and shaft (9530). This shouldn’t be rusty on a running engine. If it is look for blocked oil passages somewhere? Sounds like upper shaft is what seized. This should get oil from oil cup on distributor.

Re: Distributor Seized
 

Also follow the instructions in the owners manual, add oil to the dist oil cup until it will not take more. Allows oil to migrate up into the upper bushing. Speaking from experience when I was a newbie and had an upper shaft bushing go bad because I did not know better. A detail easy to miss if not aware of it.

Re: Distributor Seized
 

You might want to install the modified dist. shaft with the drilled hole so one can oil the upper bushing.

Re: Distributor Seized
 

The replacement dist. from Berts I now have has that. Reason I mentioned it is I had some Mod A club members with the original unmodified shafts who were unaware of filling the cup completely.

Re: Distributor Seized
 

Re: Distributor Seized
 

So I tore into everything and removed the oil pan to be sure I got all of the broken pieces. I turned the engine over by hand and inspected the cam gears. They look ok, so I definitely got lucky. I pulled the front and side timing cover to look at the famous-to-fail cam gear. I looks to have been replaced once, due to the lock nut has chisel marks on it. I ordered a new aluminum cam gear to replace the fiber one since I have everything apart anyway.
Anybody recommend any other major preventative action besides completely rebuilding the whole motor? lol

Re: Distributor Seized
 

No. Except one thing- I'd stick with fiber timing gears. The laminated ones, to be specific.

Re: Distributor Seized
 

When you get it all back together don't skip lubing the distributor and you won't go through this again. I grease the shaft when they are going together after new shaft and bushings.

Re: Distributor Seized
 

Ok. All put together again. Everything seems to be running good. The Aluminum timing gear is definitely more noisy than the original, but seemed to quiet up some as I run it. I assume it has to "wear in" a little, and once the cam thrust is oiled better (greased on assembly) it should get better. I prob should have just bought the matched set from that guy in CA. It wasn't too difficult overall.
I used a puller on the cam gear that made life easy. The oil pump holding tool worked great. But the timing cover is tough because of the asbestos seal and so is the pan. Def fit the gaskets first before gluing them to the block. The do need a little trimming and persuasion to make them perfect.
hopefully this is the last major repair for a while. Thank you all for the help.

Re: Distributor Seized
 

Ya those timing cover rope seals are horrible. I am struggling right now with one. Congratulations on getting it back on the road.

Re: Distributor Seized
 

DS, I am not sure if you did this or not.

Not only should you pull the oil pan you must remove the dip tray and see what if anything is under the tray.

Re: Distributor Seized
 

My experience with a seized distributor is the cam gear "walks" the distributor/oil pump gear "up" compressing the retention spring, lifting the distributor, and possibly shearing the collar retention pins. The spring loaded keeper CAN be a god-send to saving a cam shaft.

I have about eight distributor castings upstairs in the drawer. Three of these have a "score mark" across the mount like they have been "lifted" - so perhaps the failure is more common than we think?

Well, given the old style "non oiled" upper distributor bearing, it seems plausible.

Joe K

Re: Distributor Seized
 

I pulled the pan and cleaned out everything. There were two pieces of sheared gears in there, so it was worth the job.
The old distributor is un-rebuild-able. I removed the old lower plate to see if I could drive out the shaft, etc. It was definitely a terminal injury. The upper bushing / bearing area is mushroomed out and split all the way around. I have an awesome new ashtray now.
So I drove around for a couple of hours today, no issues. I have a bunch of rattles and such to iron out, but hopefully its all easy stuff (yeah right). I noticed the rear end is leaking pretty bad, so tomorrow I will clean everything off and see if I can pinpoint the spot. Do we know if there is vent (pressure building in rear, causing leak) or does it just vent through the torque tube? I'll prob have to rebuild the rear now.....

Re: Distributor Seized
 

No vent. The torque tube and shaft seals are not perfect.

The rear end may have been rebuilt with modern bolts. The original trumpet tube to banjo bolts were a special "fit class" designed for use at that spot - and to not leak - they were that tight.

Modern bolts in the fit class are available, but most restorers either use originals, the repop fit size, or even Big Box Store Bolts - in all cases usually backed up with a layer of Permatex prior to setting the bolts. Best (strongest) is the original fit class, but the aftermarket China bolts are strong enough (roughly equivalent class 5 whether marked thusly or not.)

Joe K