Non fitting / defective aftermarket parts
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mitch//PA in the "What's it worth" thread:

"I lose so much time and labor on non fitting / defective aftermarket parts.....its getting worse and worse"

I've wondered about this issue for some time, but Mitch and Rowdy's exchange in the above thread has finally caused me to ask the following question:
Why do we collectively accept parts that don't fit / work? In any other line of business, defective parts are returned to the supplier, a refund issued, feedback provided to the maker, who improves his game in order to stay in business. It's Business Economics 101!

Why does this model of business not apply to the companies that make the parts we purchase? Are we our own worst enemies when we feebly accept that we must modify a part that should fit/work first time?

I don't get it.

Re: Non fitting / defective aftermarket parts
 

Hoogah,
It takes a lots of time & B.S. to get a change made, just like in Congress. "Maybe" changes will be made, after we DIE!!
Bill W.

Re: Non fitting / defective aftermarket parts
 

I usually stay out of threads like this but felt compelled to respond to defend the fact that we have parts out there.

I think you and all of us should be thankful that we have parts out there for our almost 90 year old cars that are as good as they are and plentiful. Imagine if you couldn't pick up the phone and call Snyders, Brattons, Berts,Mikes, and others. You had to work with the parts you had and search out for better. What would that do to the price of them and ease of restoring and servicing the cars?

No, they all aren't perfect but then neither are we. Life is not unfortunately...
We should be thankful for the vendors and suppliers that have invested, taken the time, energy, and fortitude to supply what we have.. which is way better than they were 20 years ago or more. It may be those haven't been in it long enough to appreciate what we have now. Reproduction bodies, fenders, mechanical parts that almost every car out there wouldn't be on the road without them. If you don't like it, return it.... if it takes a little work to make it right and better than do it if you want.
You have a choice... restore your original or buy the reproduction if need be and desired. It's just that simple.

I for one am thankful for the resources we have and those that have gotten it done. I do think it's good to give constructive feedback to them on the issues and problems, and that hopefully improvements and certainly awareness to the issue be made.

It may be that "business 101" as you said might not deem it feesable to retool or remake parts that may in fact have been produced for many years. If you can do better at them than I would encourage you to do so and then that would be more "Business 101" and let market competition prevail.

Sure I struck a nerve here .. but I for one am thankful instead of critical.
Larry Shepard

Re: Non fitting / defective aftermarket parts
 

It is complicated. I have learned a few things over the years.

First is the maker getting correct feedback.
Two things happen that they have to sort through.

You can get people that are clueless and do not understand how to proper install the part or have other bad parts that may make yours part look bad.

You get little or no feedback. Turns out most of the time people get a part and work with it and never talk to the right people about their experiences.

Then there is making a part.
An example I will use is what you might think is a simple panel. The lower rear cross panel for a 28-29 coupe. The repro is flat across the top and does not have the right sizes or proper doublers.
One person looked into what it would take to have the part made correct. The tooling would cost in excess of like $125,000. The part would also require a special run of steel to be able to make the shape. Your only option is to buy a huge roll from the mill. So to make it worth while he would have to sell a lot at like $200 each. People complain when they have to spend the $40 for the bad repro. There was no way to make the part without losing a lot of money.

Then there even finding companies the will make the part. I talked to one well known parts house and the guy told me some of their problems getting parts made. They take the Ford prints and go out for bids to get parts made. No one submits a bid. At times I think they feel lucky to get some kind of part made.

So it is just not as easy as you think to get parts made right. This coming from someone who has cursed the repro parts as much as everyone else. I am also willing at times to lay out money for NOS parts where needed.

So when you are using a repro part and find an issue, explain what you find here on the Fordbarn and let the dealer know. I believe most of the dealers are watching the boards and learning from what they read. Some even participate regularly, Bert's seems to be a stand out business from that respect.

The dealers are trying to make things better, but it not easy to do.

Re: Non fitting / defective aftermarket parts
 

just to clarify our exchange was regarding the MODERN repo parts market.....

Re: Non fitting / defective aftermarket parts
 

Model A people ARE lucky to have the parts we have. Even some of the NOS stuff didn't really fit right, like they were factory rejects sent on to the dealers to let them make the parts work:eek:

I imagine restoring a '28-'31 Chevy is a bit of a nightmare. Never mind a Graham, Paige, Auburn, what have you.

I guess it comes back to what Brent Terry has said for years---- take your original part and try like heck to restore it and put it back in service. Harder route to go but sometimes the best advice.

Re: Non fitting / defective aftermarket parts
 

Re: Non fitting / defective aftermarket parts
 

I once asked Al Lepore of A&L paarts why he did not make a headlamp socket asssembly, as the repros were really poor. He said it would cost $10,000 to make the tooling, back then. How many would you need to sell to break even?
I am glad we have what is available, even though some is rather poor quality. There are parts that are made by more than one supplier, and the quality varies. I had a customer bring me rumble lid stop brackets from Mac's and they looked like they were made in India in someone's back yard with a hammer. I told him to get better ones, and he ordered from Bratton, and they were correct, and much stronger. It pays to shop around.

Re: Non fitting / defective aftermarket parts
 

Just to throw a little more fuel on the fire...we may live long enough to see restorers using 3-D printers to replicate parts. I just saw an auction with three of the printers for sale, so it's no longer "new" tecnology.

I do understand that the cost of making a steel part with one of these is very expensive. The fellow that made a working 1911 Colt, 45 acp, said it cost well over a hundred thousand for the first one...if memory servces.

But the day will probably come where the garage owner will get all his parts this way....just punch in the numbers and the copier spits out the parts. Who remembers how much carbon paper and typwrites a company used to burn through.

Just saying, we only have to live to be a couple of hundred years old to have easy access to the parts!

Re: Non fitting / defective aftermarket parts
 

I hear what you are saying and the realities you describe make sense, bit some people ask, for example, how a repro hood shelf for the '29s gets made with a mounting hole mis-located. Or how the repro light switch, for example, which as produced, seems not exactly the simplest thing to reproduce and must take some skill and detail , still doesn't get made to be workable.

Re: Non fitting / defective aftermarket parts
 

Not point to any post specifically but let me start by asking "why" do you need a reproduction part? For example, someone mentioned a stop light switch. 'WHY' is a stop light switch needed? In reality, there are many used ones out there that would serve well as a core for restoring. Is the issue that the "new widget" purchaser does not have the ability to restore it, -or is it a case where they do not want to spend the effort (too lazy.)??

My personal perspective on much of this is we have chosen the avenue with the least amount of friction. If the price of the new brake light switch was $100, then we might just choose to find & restore an original one. I think that mindset drives the quality & pricing of many new repro parts. gain, I can prove it scenario after scenario where a better quality item was offered and people balked at the price until the quality item is no longer being produced.

Re: Non fitting / defective aftermarket parts
 

In my Humble OP. For me if you can not make it right, do not make it at all. How long would your engine last if all parts were wrong.
After many years of maching parts it is not that hard to get them right. Ether they do not know how or they do not care. Sheet metal may be another thing. I'm not a sheet metal guy. If I was I would not make parts to sale if I could not make them right.

Re: Non fitting / defective aftermarket parts
 

In relation to giving feedback, I used to buy a lot of stuff from Snyders and on one or two occasions, I gave them feedback which was never acted upon. It was only last week that I tried to contact them again after Mike V in Florida said that he had let them know of the trouble anybody outside the US has contacting them. My message encountered an "Unexpected Error" again. This leads me to comment Snyders won't listen to feedback anyway so why would anybody expect them to take any action. Hopeless!:eek:
I've since started buying elsewhere.

Re: Non fitting / defective aftermarket parts
 

Well, since I brought it up, I will answer the "why". I can only speak for myself but I really don't have the life situation to troll swap meets in distant places in endless pursuit of a desirable unit at an acceptable price.

As to your second thought, I can't dispute a correlation between reproduction cost and restoration cost but I also think availability is a factor.

Re: Non fitting / defective aftermarket parts
 

In the end, everything said above is correct-it always comes down to money and the model A is not a "growing" hobby, so count your blessings on whatever parts you get whether new or old. still easy to find A parts............
Have owned many "orphan" cars and parts are impossible to get wo doing major machine work.

Re: Non fitting / defective aftermarket parts
 

Like others mixed emotions. I have only had a model A a few years and love the fact that almost any part is available and would prefer them to fit right but still glad to see parts.
For years I owned and sold 40's - 50's dodges and plymouths and spare parts do not exist so I always had to have a parts cars around to complete a car well enough to get it back on road.

Other thought I would have are the parts actually from different vendors or do they just sell the same parts from a few major manufactures.

Re: Non fitting / defective aftermarket parts
 

Don't get me wrong, Larry, I'm grateful, but I still don't get how parts suppliers can be proud of a product that doesn't fit without modification, or how parts makers even got to the point where they churn out a whole run of ill-fitting parts! Where was the testing phase?

Surely this must not be happening and we are to blame?

Sorry for the mis-quote Mitch, but it doesn't matter now, I guess. :o

Exactly my point. Why was this testing not done before a whole run of faulty parts was churned out? This is Business 101!

I guess we're all coming from different places in terms of our resources, time and skill set. I'd rather use original parts on my survivor any day, but if it comes down to not driving my car for 2, 6, or.12 months while I find an original versus using a repro part and keep driving, somewhere I'm gonna compromise in order to keep enjoying the other 99.99% of my car!! :D

Business 101 not working at Snyders, but is alive and well at Synchro's house!
If we collectively and gently "pushed back" on this issue, surely things would get better.

Re: Non fitting / defective aftermarket parts
 

Synders, Berts, Brattons and Mike's really make an effort to deliver a good product to the hobby. There are many smaller suppliers out there that do a wonderful job...A&L was mentioned.
Really these folk aren't huge businesses I would guess they don't fly around the world with engineers. They do this 'cause the big boys won't is my take. We have to accept some compromises and to that end we are to some degree part of the issue. You can price yourself out of business, as Pogo said...We have met the enemy and he is us.

Thru' the years I have had many hobbies. One was collecting wind-up phonographs. If not reproductions stuff that was at best so-so the parts suppliers were supplying original stuff. The well is drying up.
Back those suppliers the best you can for w/o them for many it might be eBay, which has a place too.

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I assume that was some years ago and sure, that would be a bite for him alone, but if a price like that were able to be divided up among numerous dealers, suddenly it is not so prohibitive. In the same breath I realize not all retailers would participate and for that or any number of reasons such an endeavor would be complicated, not knowing the total picture of the business.

Re: Non fitting / defective aftermarket parts
 

I once had a dear old friend who told me when i first got into Model A that the objective is to Restore the car and NOT replace it with jipo parts. Jipo is what he called after market parts. Yes he was old school.

Re: Non fitting / defective aftermarket parts
 

Great thread.

Cost (price) is 99% of the problem. I had three guys call me this week wanting Chinese steering wheels (we only sell USA Made ones) because they are $20 cheaper. Who would of thunk that? Happens all the time.

Steve @ Bert's

Re: Non fitting / defective aftermarket parts
 

Steve, do you mind me asking how the quality control system works from your perspective? How are repro parts tested before full scale production? How is feedback used to improve parts that fall short of requirements? How hard is it for you to facilitate improvement within your suppliers, and what are the impediments?

What should we, the customers, be doing?

Re: Non fitting / defective aftermarket parts
 

Worthwhile discussion! My input: Consumers need to respectful in voicing their concerns to the vendors and suppliers. On the other hand, the vendors and suppliers need to be more forthcoming and accurate in their catalogs and ads. They surely know if part X fits well or not. If it is simply too expensive to pay for OEM quality tooling, but a close facsimile is affordable, just say so! Don't brag up the 'sorta fits' part as if it were the real thing. Tell us why it may not fit and how to make it fit. Trust is a two-way street.

Re: Non fitting / defective aftermarket parts
 

I found the fit of parts is not that bad. Modern subaru have less parts available.

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Re: Non fitting / defective aftermarket parts
 

A few years ago a representative from a software company came to my place of work. While we were waiting for other people to arrive at the meeting, she noticed the picture of my Model A on my computer and mentioned that her husband had an antique car but it was a steam car. I asked if it was a White steamer - she was surprised I knew what a White was because most people only know a Stanley steamer. I asked her what her husband did for parts because they don't have Snyders, Brattons, etc for Whites. She said he made most of the parts he needed (and this was before 3D printers). I personally don't have the equipment or the ability to fabricate the parts I need so I appreciate that we have many suppliers from which to purchase parts.

Re: Non fitting / defective aftermarket parts
 

I strayed to some orphan cars for awhile, but after chasing down parts for one car for
eight years I am back to Fords, (Model T and Model A)
Sometimes to get the car by I buy a repo part and if there is a problem with it I modify
if possible while looking for good original restorable pieces.

Re: Non fitting / defective aftermarket parts
 

I find it interesting the defense of the poor parts with the attitude of "at least we have them".

Is a poor fitting, or non fitting part really better then an original part that needs restoring? Are we not using the same techniques on the poor reproduction part then we are on original parts. If reproduction parts are good enough as is then why not an original part and a can of spray paint?

When a circus elephant is born the circus places a large chain on the leg of the baby. pull and pull as it might there is no where to go but the end of the chain. Day after day, month after month the elephant gives up and the then even a weak chain is enough to "hold back" the grown elephant. Have we become so used to poor parts that we are now like the circus elephant?

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I guess that's why I started this thread. So many complaints about poor parts but so much acceptance of this as a fact of life! Surely it costs the same to carefully make a part with the hole in the wrong place or a mis-shaped curve as it does an accurate reproduction. I am grateful for the availability of parts for our cars but I don't get the complacency about shoddy workmanship!

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Wondering why one or both of the national organizations doesn't have a committee to review of rate reproduced parts.

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Over the years I've known guys that were Model A flippers. They would quickly and cheaply assemble a barn find Model A and sell it for a quick big profit. They were never looking for quality just cheap parts.

Re: Non fitting / defective aftermarket parts
 

For those who think it's hard to find good original and nos parts should have been looking 30-40 years ago. Prior to the Internet, it was by letters, phone calls, more letters and you still wound up with the incorrect original part. It's amazing how many mint original and nos parts are out there for the picking, just by sitting at the computer or in your easy chair with your smart phone.

Re: Non fitting / defective aftermarket parts
 

I generally found the repo parts to be very good.
I would be a liar... to say I don't like the cheaper parts.
but I do buy the USA/Europe part over other areas.

For say, tires I bought the 5 $99 Universals, not the $160 Firestone's.
They are made in Vietnam and have worked well for the 1 year I have had them on.
Tires have a limited shelf/use life independent of how much they are used.

say spring shackles, the USA ones are expensive and don't "look" right, but function durable & well... except for the grease fitting popping out.
for stop light switches the

summary:
Parts selection: It's a hard decision tree and lots of competing goals and constraints.

for me, I wanted a car that runs well, and I can drive in the mud or rain, and look original... at 10+ft.

There are plenty of perfection restored machines that are wonderful, for me the fun is driving them to the store after work.

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Re: Non fitting / defective aftermarket parts
 

Two sample rear fenders were sent to China, for reproduction. One suffered a shipping dent!---You guessed it, the R/R's came back, with a "no charge" DENT!
Bill W.

Re: Non fitting / defective aftermarket parts
 

Ummmmm, based on my experiences, this is NOT a factual statement. I can think of many examples where authentically making an item is much more costly. Someone mentioned Spring Hangers (Shackles) above, this a great example. The original item started off as a hot rolled steel rod and was heated and stamped in about 4 separate operations before being machined. Today's units are cast. It would not surprise me if the actual forging & machining costs would be over $40-$50 a set. This would be production costs, not retail price. Like Steve Becker stated above, our experiences counter what most people say, and most hobbyists will not pay $75 for an authentically-made spring hanger when a off-shore set can be purchased for less than half the costs.

I could site many other examples but reality is most Model-A hobbyists verbally speak one thing but purchase another. It is a matter of priorities in my view, the ones that truly want a quality item WILL take the time to find it, --or will do whatever it takes to get their item restored back within factory specs. Others it seems, typically take the easier route.

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Re: Non fitting / defective aftermarket parts
 

Yip, the discussion was about the junk plugging up my shop. Fuel pump, seems third time was a charm. I am not sure what the odds of getting 2 bad fuel pumps in a row, but just did it. Thankfully my pickup is back on the road after being broke since early July. New clutch, fuel pump and some general repairs. New head gaskets in my wifes car and new fuel pump and ignition switch in my daughters car. Not to mention the brake job on my parents Blazer, which I ended up with 1 bad caliper and a defective hose. Had .006 taper on theating surface that would not allow it to seal. All are out of my shop now. Maybe home won't feel like a continuation of work for a while. Rod

Re: Non fitting / defective aftermarket parts
 

After looking at Y-Blockhead's post showing the cowl light arm, I'm going to bet that the manufacturer of that particular part made a casting from another repro part and that the pattern "grew" causing the mismatch. I've seen SBC performance intake manifolds made off shore that weren't even close. But, they were $100 cheaper than an Edlebrock or Offy manifold so the buyer was OK with reworking the bolt holes to make them fit. Accepting crap parts isn't limited to the A hobby. Walmart has become the world's largest retailer because our culture has shifted from being a producer of goods to a provider of services and everybody is looking for the cheapest item. To paraphrase Pogo, "I've met the enemy and it is us".

Re: Non fitting / defective aftermarket parts
 

The "model a times" magazine was supposed to do just that,

"We review reproduction parts to help the restorer seek out the best value for their project. We will high-light various services offered around the country to assist in finding someone to do the job you don't care to tackle."

I used to subscribe to it.