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-   -   One of those annoying questions... (https://www.fordbarn.com/forum/showthread.php?t=280032)

Terranova 04-25-2020 08:33 PM

One of those annoying questions...
 

The short version is “what manual trans should I put behind 8BA in my 36 Fordor?”

The long version is: Discussions today have led to a redirection on my 36 Fordor project. Yesterday, and for quite awhile now, the plan was to put a Ford AOD behind a my 8BA so that my MIL could drive the car, but today it was decided that the MIL probably wouldn’t want or be able to drive the car.
So now we’re at “let’s put a manual in it.”
Ok. If you were going to put a manual behind an 8BA in a ‘36 Fordor, what would you put there? Im aware that 100 people would give me 99 different answers, so let’s give some parameters.
1. Let stay with a torque tube drive train just out of convenience.
2. Minimal interference with the trans tunnel/xmember.
3. Staying with mechanical brakes for now.
4. The rear is currently stock with 4:11(?) gears but I do have a set of 3:78. I’d like to be able to get up to and stay relatively comfortable at 65ish.
Any suggestions?

Thanks barners.

Terranova

ford38v8 04-25-2020 09:21 PM

Re: One of those annoying questions...
 

Without question, a '39 top loader along with the 3.78 rear end.

tubman 04-25-2020 09:40 PM

Re: One of those annoying questions...
 

"V8Coopman" - Where are you?

deuce_roadster 04-25-2020 10:43 PM

Re: One of those annoying questions...
 

Post 2 is says your quickest, easiest and cheapest way to go. All the transmissions before 39 had a synchro that isn't all that great and you should shift them slowly and at the right RPM, and the spur cut low gears in the early transmissions make a distinctive sound. You will definitely need to put the 3.78s in there to run comfortably at 65. Just make sure your brakes can stop you when going that speed.
I have a 33 with 3.54s and it cruises along at 60-65.
Good luck.

Terranova 04-26-2020 07:19 AM

Re: One of those annoying questions...
 

So, ‘39 or ‘40. Anything newer will start to mess with the frame, because it changes after that, correct?

KiWinUS 04-26-2020 07:28 AM

Re: One of those annoying questions...
 

Get some of Flathead Teds floaters for your rod brakes & setup/adjusted correctly you we be good. Easiest & quickest is as post 2 states. Enjoy

JM 35 Sedan 04-26-2020 08:53 AM

Re: One of those annoying questions...
 

I would suggest keeping your original top load '36 transmission case with serial #'s that match the frame and installing the later '39-'48 gears with better syncro's. This is essentially the same as a '39 transmission in my opinion. Also, if changing rear gears to 3.54 or 3.78, I would suggest using the later gears with 29 tooth cluster and 15 tooth input gear. I did this on my '35 fordor (Avatar) last Summer along with 3.54 rear gears, and appsolutly love the results. Coming off the line in first and second works so well, and can cruise in third all day at 60-65 mph if I want to.
I really did not care to modify my car in any way that would be required to use a modern overdrive transmission.

Bored&Stroked 04-26-2020 09:09 AM

Re: One of those annoying questions...
 

You also didn't talk about budget and associated amount of work??? For example, if the body is already off the frame, then you have more options. It also kind of depends whether or not you want to put a lot of highway miles on it at higher speeds. So - the planned usage of the car matters quite a bit.

Even with 3.78 gears, you'll find that if you'd like to go 70 - 75 mph for longer distances, that you're keeping the motor pretty wound up.

So, probably every one of us that does what I mentioned up above (wants to be able to get on the open highways and go long distances) has, wants or ponders "wouldn't it be nice to have an overdrive in this thing". The tried and true 'vintage' option is a Columbia rear-end. This is a "bolt in" deal - if you find one that is setup or modified to correctly fit a 36'. Other aspects to consider about Columbia rears is that they tend to be very expensive (when all set up) and there are not really that many folks who know how to work on them (still around).

The other option is a late overdrive transmission. The most talked about one is obviously the T5 with an S-10 rear case. I think a LOT of us would love to just drop one of those in our cars -- but then starts a whole lot of work. As you noted, you have to do fairly extensive modifications to the center frame area, going with a torque-tube is not an easy task (unless you source some harder to find Jeep parts, have custom parts made, etc). Then you have to shorten the torque-tube and driveshaft. Lots of work and lots of time/money if you have to out-source it to a shop.

Now, you can put "highway gears" in the rear - I just swapped my 4.11s out of my 32 for a set of 3.54's. (This was due to all the issues noted up above). I thought this was my best option (no mods to the frame, can use a nicely built 39 trans, etc). Well, while the car now goes down the highway just fine . . . it surely isn't as fun around town! Crap - I fixed one thing . . . and now I don't like it for what I do the most . . . cruise around our country roads. The low 4.11 gears were a lot more fun than the 3.54's - no comparison for acceleration and just having fun . . . .

So, I'm going to bite the bullet and build a Columbia with a lot of performance upgrades (8620 steel parts, 28" late Ford axles, etc) - with a 4.44 set of gears in it. This will give me the best of both worlds . . . fun around my local roads and the ability to take it on the highway and cruise at 75 and not be revving the crap out of my engine.

Lastly: There is nothing wrong with mechanical brakes - up to a point. And I ran my mechanicals on my 32 (all redone) for 3 years. They were perfectly fine on my local roads. But, when I decided I wanted more highway cruising (with our 1/2 busy local freeways), I decided I needed to upgrade the whole brake package. I replaced everything with modern Bendix/Lincoln style brakes . . . an expensive proposition for sure, but much better brakes (no question about it).

So, think about ALL of this before you make a choice. The 39 style box is by far the easiest and least consequential option (heck, I'm building three of these transmissions right at this moment - so I surely don't have anything against them!).

But, I'd sure like a nice T5 with a set of close-ratio Ford Motorsport T5Z gears in it . . . and a .82 overdrive . . .

John R 04-26-2020 11:17 AM

Re: One of those annoying questions...
 

B&S has written a very informative summary of the options. Especially useful in that i
t is based on real-world, personal experience. Thanks.


A 29 tooth gear set would help a bit in the around town driving, especially in a light car like a 32.

'36 5W 04-26-2020 11:36 AM

Re: One of those annoying questions...
 

Keeping in mind, the KISS principle, another vote here for the '39
trans. and 3.78 gears for a semi-comfortable cruising speed of 60
Max on hwy. (B&S makes a good point re having to shift a lot
more on backroads w/ 3.54s, which are hard to find & more $$.)

(Probably a good thing that your MIL decided against driving the
car; even w/ a '37-40 steering box, the steering would be too "heavy"
for her...)

ford38v8 04-26-2020 12:09 PM

Re: One of those annoying questions...
 

Quote:

Originally Posted by JM 35 Sedan (Post 1879464)
I would suggest keeping your original top load '36 transmission case with serial #'s that match the frame and installing the later '39-'48 gears with better syncro's.

John's suggestion works very well. '39-'48 gears in your '36 gearbox does it all for you. You will need the '39 shift forks with those gears also.

Terranova 04-26-2020 01:47 PM

Re: One of those annoying questions...
 

I’ve read about “wide ratio” transmissions before, how rare are they?

V8COOPMAN 04-26-2020 02:33 PM

Re: One of those annoying questions...
 

Quote:

Originally Posted by tubman (Post 1879333)
"V8Coopman" - Where are you?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Terranova (Post 1879313)
The short version is “what manual trans should I put behind 8BA in my 36 Fordor?”

1. Let stay with a torque tube drive train.
2. Minimal interference with the trans tunnel/xmember.
3. I’d like to be able to get up to and stay relatively comfortable at 65ish.
Any suggestions?
Terranova


OK, I'll play! A little over four years ago, our FordBarn friend Heard Saxon decided he wanted to upgrade to a modern O/D type, sweet-shiftin' manual trans in his '35 Ford pick-up with an 8BA. If you should desire to incorporate a T5 into your '36 Ford torque tube, refer to the project that Heard and I devised for his '35, as well as for his '36 3-window coupe to be upgraded in the near future. What we did applies to any '35-'40 Ford car or pick-up chassis. Click on the T5 W/TORQUE TUBE located toward the BOTTOM, LEFT of this post, or click on the link just ABOVE the picture below. Full descriptive plus many pictures. I will happily answer any questions, but please understand: WE SELL NO KIT or PARTS! Teaser picture below!! So Terranova, go get ya a tall, cool one, kick-back, click the link below and enjoy the text and many pics. DD


And PS: When you realize how hard it is to put a REAL, mechanical fan on that 8BA with that LEAN-BACK radiator, we have a nifty solution for that, too!


https://www.fordbarn.com/forum/showt...T5+TORQUE+TUBE


https://www.fordbarn.com/forum/attac...6&d=1475624855

Ol' Ron 04-26-2020 02:36 PM

Re: One of those annoying questions...
 

I have one of the 80's F-i50 3 speed with OD infront of a 3.73 Dana 44a with posi, The engine is a stock 280ci flathead. I live in Vermont and there are very few Hills?? I can climb in OD. The trans is a full synchronized unit that shifts so smooth. You can have t converted to closed driveshaft.

Terranova 04-26-2020 03:41 PM

Re: One of those annoying questions...
 

V8Coopman I’ve seen your mechanical fan workaround and have the thread bookmarked and pictures saved.


Bored&Stroked, thank you for the well thought out info, I appreciate it. This is exactly the kind of feed back I came here for.

Everyone’s info has been very helpful.

Terranova 04-26-2020 03:44 PM

Re: One of those annoying questions...
 

Coopman, that T5 setup is mouthwaterigly yummy but a bit beyond what I’d like to get involved with, especially with the body being on the car.

JM 35 Sedan 04-26-2020 04:19 PM

Re: One of those annoying questions...
 

Quote:

Originally Posted by '36 5W (Post 1879573)
Keeping in mind, the KISS principle, another vote here for the '39
trans. and 3.78 gears for a semi-comfortable cruising speed of 60 Max on hwy.

"(B&S makes a good point re having to shift a lot more on backroads w/ 3.54s, which are hard to find & more $$.)"

(Probably a good thing that your MIL decided against driving the
car; even w/ a '37-40 steering box, the steering would be too "heavy"
for her...)

I haven't found the above statement, in bold, to be true with the changes I've made as described in my first post on this thread. I've done most every type of driving imaginable, and don't find it any more necessary to shift on back roads. My original 21 stud engine has plenty low end torque to increase speed while still in third gear.
Also, I found the 3.54 gears are readily available with 6 spline pinion gears, and no more expensive than 3.78 gears in either 6 or 10 spline . Now 3.54 gears with 10 spline pinion gear are difficult to find and usually quite expensive if/when you do find them.

Bored&Stroked 04-26-2020 07:18 PM

Re: One of those annoying questions...
 

Just to clarify, my issue with 3.54's on my back roads isn't about shifting, it is about just taking off from a stop-sign, pushing the engine through 1st and 2nd gear and enjoying the acceleration of 4.11 gears in a light hotrod. I really enjoyed this aspect of the car. When I switched over to 3.54, I sort of ruined that part of the deal for me . . . I made it a good highway car, but lost a bit of the fun that I previously enjoyed. Heck, the stock 59AB and 4.11 gears were even pretty dang fun . . . so as usual, I'm going to work some more and "solve" my problem - I like the BEST of BOTH WORLDS! LOL

JM 35 Sedan 04-26-2020 07:51 PM

Re: One of those annoying questions...
 

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bored&Stroked (Post 1879807)
Just to clarify, my issue with 3.54's on my back roads isn't about shifting, it is about just taking off from a stop-sign, pushing the engine through 1st and 2nd gear and enjoying the acceleration of 4.11 gears in a light hotrod. I really enjoyed this aspect of the car. When I switched over to 3.54, I sort of ruined that part of the deal for me . . . I made it a good highway car, but lost a bit of the fun that I previously enjoyed. Heck, the stock 59AB and 4.11 gears were even pretty dang fun . . . so as usual, I'm going to work some more and "solve" my problem - I like the BEST of BOTH WORLDS! LOL

B&S, I'm wondering which year and model car did you put the 3.54 rear gears into?
Also, which year transmission and what gear combination are you using in the transmission that's in this car?

V8COOPMAN 04-26-2020 08:29 PM

Re: One of those annoying questions...
 

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bored&Stroked (Post 1879807)
Just to clarify, my issue with 3.54's on my back roads isn't about shifting, it is about just taking off from a stop-sign, pushing the engine through 1st and 2nd gear and enjoying the acceleration of 4.11 gears in a light hotrod. I really enjoyed this aspect of the car. When I switched over to 3.54, I sort of ruined that part of the deal for me . . . I made it a good highway car, but lost a bit of the fun that I previously enjoyed. Heck, the stock 59AB and 4.11 gears were even pretty dang fun . . . so as usual, I'm going to work some more and "solve" my problem - I like the BEST of BOTH WORLDS! LOL


B&S....You have brought up an aspect of transmission replacement that SO MANY folks fail to consider. JSeery and myself have both preached until we're blue in the face about the rewards of using the "close ratio" (2.95 1st gear) gear sets that are available for the NWC and the WC T5 gearboxes, that when thoughtfully combined with the "right" rear end ratio can make a world of difference between a "slug", a "waste", or a "pure dream"! And the T5, which offers three tightly-grouped ACCELERATING gears (1st, 2nd and 3rd) before shifting to the "STRAIGHT DRIVE" 4th gear (3rd in the old Ford box) gives the ability to really feel that seat-of-the-pants "pull" to an even greater degree. Drive someone's car with a T5 or a Muncie and you'll experience what I'm talking about. Your original set-up that you now miss (4.11/2.82 1st gear) gave you an overall 1st ratio of 11.59:1 ....great for leaving a stop sign. What you have now which gave-up much of that seat-of-the-pants "grunt" (3.54/2.82 1st gear) dropped your overall 1st gear ratio down to 9.98:1 ....as you said, going the wrong way for any exhilarating acceleration, especially with the large drop in RPMs between shifts. The 2.95 1st gear in the T5 (versus that awful 4.03 1st gear that comes in many S-10 T5s) combined with your current 3.54 Ford rear affords you a middle-ground overall 1st gear ratio of 10.44:1 ....PLUS one additional gear to keep the RPMs up. Talk about putting a smirk on your face IF feeling that engine "PULL" is what floats your boat. Not only that, but with the four (+1) forward gears, you can more-precisely select an appropriate RPM range while tooling through some back-country "twisties". You obviously understand, through your experience, the importance of giving serious thought to gear ratios and overall tire diameters when choosing gears and rears. Maybe someday you'll get that T5 in there for the ultimate in back road smiles. DD


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