The Ford Barn

The Ford Barn (https://www.fordbarn.com/forum/index.php)
-   Model A (1928-31) (https://www.fordbarn.com/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=3)
-   -   Water in oil/engine (https://www.fordbarn.com/forum/showthread.php?t=283572)

Bob from Northport 07-04-2020 07:53 AM

Water in oil/engine
 

Is there a way to determine if evidence of water in the oil, on the dip stick is from a cracked head or bad head gasket???
Truck arrived in the shop today. Photos will be included below

john charlton 07-04-2020 08:54 AM

Re: Water in oil/engine
 

One of the first clues is "Brylcreem" or mayo in the oil filler cap .

John in very windy Suffolk County England .

katy 07-04-2020 09:28 AM

Re: Water in oil/engine
 

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bob from Northport (Post 1905845)
Is there a way to determine if evidence of water in the oil, on the dip stick is from a cracked head or bad head gasket???

Remove the head and inspect.

bavArian 07-04-2020 09:29 AM

Re: Water in oil/engine
 

If water is in the oil, there's a high chance that oil is also in the water. Check your radiator.
To be sure you can just drain the oil, check it and then use it again if it is relatively new or just use new oil.
Have you used the car for short trips lately?

Licensed to kill 07-04-2020 09:44 AM

Re: Water in oil/engine
 

Quote:

Originally Posted by bavArian (Post 1905888)
If water is in the oil, there's a high chance that oil is also in the water. Check your radiator.
To be sure you can just drain the oil, check it and then use it again if it is relatively new or just use new oil.
Have you used the car for short trips lately?

I find condensation to be brutal in mine then I make several short trips. Haven't seen water "in the oil" per se but the filler tube gets pretty slimed up real quick.

redmodelt 07-04-2020 11:44 AM

Re: Water in oil/engine
 

Quote:

Originally Posted by Licensed to kill (Post 1905895)
I find condensation to be brutal in mine then I make several short trips. Haven't seen water "in the oil" per se but the filler tube gets pretty slimed up real quick.


Living in Oregon and where my T is stored, I get the same thing. Short drives never gets the engine hot enough to burn off the condensation. Worried me to no end till I pressure checked the block and found no internal cracks so now just live with it.

Bob from Northport 07-04-2020 01:44 PM

Re: Water in oil/engine
 

A short update. The owner of the truck came by and said he found his radiator empty. He put in a gallon of water, and found a short time later the oil pan was full of water and it was running out of the clutch housing. It will be brought into my shop monday or tuesday as soon as it can be towed. I told him to immediately drain the oil pan.

chrs1961815 07-04-2020 01:50 PM

Re: Water in oil/engine
 

I would be concerned about a cracked block or maybe head with that amount of water.

Jack Shaft 07-04-2020 02:36 PM

Re: Water in oil/engine
 

Fabbed up some plates to pressurize 24 Stud V8's,its not hard if your handy and have a drill press.Pressurize to 20 lbs or so,spray with soapy water to find cracks.Imagine the issue with that engine is big...irontite crack pins and tap is worth the investment,pinning isnt difficult,just time consuming.

Jack Shaft 07-04-2020 02:44 PM

Re: Water in oil/engine
 

I believe a crack relieves stress,properly repaired the block is better for it,within reason.

old31 07-04-2020 06:14 PM

Re: Water in oil/engine
 

Quote:

Originally Posted by john charlton (Post 1905875)
One of the first clues is "Brylcreem" or mayo in the oil filler cap .

John in very windy Suffolk County England .

Ah ha, John I never knew where Brylcreem came from. Remember the add, I little dad will do ya, and they had a couple of gorgeous blondes just drooling over the guys hair.:)

Synchro909 07-04-2020 07:02 PM

Re: Water in oil/engine
 

Quote:

Originally Posted by old31 (Post 1906036)
Ah ha, John I never knew where Brylcreem came from. Remember the add, I little dad will do ya, and they had a couple of gorgeous blondes just drooling over the guys hair.:)

I remember the adds but they were back in the days when I had hair!!! BUt back tot he original question. IMO, there are 3 likely places that water could be coming from.
Cracked head
blown head gasket
cracked block.
Has the engine over heated at any stage? If so, I'm leaning towards a crack from # 2 or 3 exhaust valve seat across to the bore and heading south down it.
What do the spark plugs tell you? Photos might help us get a better handle on this.

Ed in Maine 07-05-2020 05:37 AM

Re: Water in oil/engine
 

I just experienced this problem. I removed the cylinder head and dropped the pan. There is a lot of contaminated oil trapped in the lower engine, dipper tray and in the corners of the block. I wiped this all out as best I could and cleaned the pan. Just in case, I got another cylinder head, had it milled true and checked the torque many times during the start up process. The literature states to check torque values cold. So, over several days I drove the car and the next morning I checked the torque values at 55 ft. lbs. until there were no further changes. So far so good.



I think it is good practice when you are going to leave the car for an extended period of time, drain the water just in case there is some slight seepage. Ed

Ed

Big hammer 07-05-2020 09:08 AM

Re: Water in oil/engine
 

Water in oil-----antifreeze in oil
Antifreeze in oil scares me------- in a modern I keep adding antifreeze telling myself you need to look into this, well on my Monday trip for work it died. Antifreeze in oil will wipeout the bearings and crankshaft, camshaft---------very $$$$$$$$

30 Closed Cab PU 07-05-2020 03:20 PM

Re: Water in oil/engine
 

Am curious, would you not have the same issue when ignoring water in the oil?

john in illinois 07-05-2020 04:26 PM

Re: Water in oil/engine
 

Antiifreeze damages bearings as mentioned. Water does not ( over the short term).

John

rotorwrench 07-05-2020 05:16 PM

Re: Water in oil/engine
 

Neither water or ethylene glycol are lubricants so keep that in mind when finding the dip stick reads way over full when it wasn't that way last time it was checked. I always treated a model A like a tractor. Check the fluid levels before operating it and catch little problems before they turn into big ones.

Water or water coolant mix is a lot heavier then the oil so it will separate quickly and go to the bottom of the pan. Water will mix with ethylene glycol but it won't mix with oil.

The OPs vehicle in question may have been run a bit too low on coolant for a bit too long. Cast iron likes to crack if it gets too hot. It's killed many an old Ford block for sure. Freezing is still the most common killer though.

Chuck Sea/Tac 07-06-2020 12:29 AM

Re: Water in oil/engine
 

Quote:

Originally Posted by Licensed to kill (Post 1905895)
I find condensation to be brutal in mine then I make several short trips. Haven't seen water "in the oil" per se but the filler tube gets pretty slimed up real quick.

This problem is easily solved which a thermostat. Your engine runs better as well when itís 160 to 180 degrees.

Bob from Northport 07-07-2020 08:33 PM

Re: Water in oil/engine
 

5 Attachment(s)
The truck arrived in my shop this afternoon. I disassembled the truck, and tore down the top end of the engine.
1. There was evident moisture in the #3 cylinder intake. Also moisture in the #3 cylinder on the walls.
2. The gasket seemed to be sealed along the drivers side of the block, but not so much on the passenger side.
3. The three head bolts that surround the distributor placement hole were not torque tight. The other head bolts took some force to loosen.
4. The water seem to have gone down the distributor shaft hole, indicating the gasket was NOt sealed there.
5. I see no indication of cracks anywhere. Not the head nor the cylinders. Using a flat steel surface I could not get a feeler gauge anywhere under the head. It appears flat.

I need opinions on using the head gaskets with that red line sealer. I have seen problems with them before. Should I use copper instead?? It is a 5.1 compression Snyders Head, on the engine about 2 years. Low mileage driven by owner. NEVER checks his engine prior to driving, hence the water in the oil. There was still 2 gallons of coolant when I drained the block left in the engine.

1crosscut 07-07-2020 08:41 PM

Re: Water in oil/engine
 

Sounds like a case of not checking torque as often as should have been after a new head installation. If the block is flat too then I would clean it up and put on a new standard copper gasket and torque through several heat cycles and then a few times after that as it is driven.

Synchro909 07-08-2020 12:26 AM

Re: Water in oil/engine
 

Those head gaskets with the red line are rubbish if you follow the enclosed instructions. They don't seem so bad if you use a sealer like Hylomar or high temp copper gasket sealer. I use the "BEST" branded graphite ones with sealer.

ryanheacox 07-08-2020 09:01 AM

Re: Water in oil/engine
 

Yup, just like Synchro said, use the BEST brand gasket with the 5.5 head. They come in copper or graphite, 509C or G. Either should work very well.

asapguy 07-08-2020 11:11 AM

Re: Water in oil/engine
 

A couple things I didn't see mentioned. The 1st one could be related to the lose head nuts that were mentioned but if the distributer was removed & the head nut that holds the clamp for the dist, cable left off for any length of time water can run into the oil. Don't ask me how I know this!! 2nd thing is I no longer use the so called "modern gaskets". These gaskets have a steel reinforcement ring around the cyl. & can rust. On one of my cars with a B motor which has steam vent holes that an A motor doesn't have one of these gasket rusted from a steam vent hole to the cyl. allowing water into the oil. I tapped those steam vent holes with a metric allen screw & installed a copper gasket & never had a problem since.

Bob from Northport 07-09-2020 01:38 PM

Re: Water in oil/engine
 

2 Attachment(s)
To answer asapguy question. The cooling system was completely drained as well as the oil before any disassembly took place. No water could have come from any loose nuts. We found the three nuts that surround the distributor not as tight/torqued as they should have been.
These are photos of the inside of the valve cover assembly, and for some strange reason a great deal of rust spray under the drivers side of the engine pan and side of the oil pan.
That area was clean and black when it left the shop several years back.

Benson 07-10-2020 02:45 PM

Re: Water in oil/engine-Anti freeze use is good
 

MY SEWAG on this!!

Looking at photo one.

1. I would look for freeze damage and cracks in the roof of valve chamber.

2. Also ALL of the water needs to be removed from main bearing feed tubes and camshaft bearing feed holes in floor of valve chamber!

Water in the oil feed tubes will prevent oil getting to bearings and will damage them.


3. Post 19 photo #2:

Reason number 657 for not using water and for using antifreeze. Looks like maybe the water leaked around the several studs and collected near the nuts at top of studs.

This water rusts the threads on top of studs.

Then when re torque is done the nut jams on the rusted stud and clamping force value is way short of what it should be. Result is leaking gasket.

If anti freeze had been used then if there are leaks it does not rust everything.





Quote:

Originally Posted by Bob from Northport (Post 1907552)
To answer asapguy question. The cooling system was completely drained as well as the oil before any disassembly took place. No water could have come from any loose nuts. We found the three nuts that surround the distributor not as tight/torqued as they should have been.
These are photos of the inside of the valve cover assembly, and for some strange reason a great deal of rust spray under the drivers side of the engine pan and side of the oil pan.
That area was clean and black when it left the shop several years back.


Benson 07-10-2020 03:05 PM

Re: Water in oil/engine
 

Delete double posting

john in illinois 07-10-2020 04:21 PM

Re: Water in oil/engine
 

I’m with Benson. If it was mine I would tear it down and clean and lube it.
Also people in my club do not use silicone head gaskets.
John

Bob from Northport 07-10-2020 04:43 PM

Re: Water in oil/engine
 

2 Attachment(s)
This is what the oil pan looked like inside when we pulled out out today.
All passages and rods have been cleaned. Pan and inner pan cleaned .
Pan back on the engine

Jack Shaft 07-11-2020 08:21 AM

Re: Water in oil/engine
 

damn you guys are tough,doing it inframe..I'm lazy,I like standing up,working on the engine stand.

Bob from Northport 07-11-2020 08:46 AM

Re: Water in oil/engine
 

The customer that owns this truck does not want to spend any money. That is why it is in the shape it is. I would have preferred to remove the engine. But we've done this before. Well see how it comes out.

Jack Shaft 07-11-2020 11:58 AM

Re: Water in oil/engine
 

Sent the guy who sold me a burnt chassis a picture of the completed car about 3 years later.He writes back and congratulates me,says he want to see it when he's in town.I extended the invitation,to which he replies his brakes and steering needs work but he's getting too old to do it.I responded i still have the service truck,and would gladly work for cash and or barter for parts...his response? crickets..gotta love model a types,I call them CAMO's...cheap ass model a owners..of which I am one btw..


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 11:18 PM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, vBulletin Solutions Inc.