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-   -   Success with improvements for touring (https://www.fordbarn.com/forum/showthread.php?t=113090)

Jordan 07-29-2013 04:02 PM

Re: Success with improvements for touring
 

I will say I want my next car to be either a 30 tudor or 30 cabriolet. I want to keep my next one closer to stock, so that I can have the best of both worlds.

Mike V. Florida 07-29-2013 04:09 PM

Re: Success with improvements for touring
 

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jordan (Post 696854)
I too have an overdrive, FSI Distributor and Ken's modern shocks (along with some other goodies). I have been very satisfied with this set up.

That is a prefect statement!

BRENT in 10-uh-C 07-29-2013 04:39 PM

Re: Success with improvements for touring
 

Quote:

Originally Posted by quickchange (Post 696881)
So where do we find these 3.27 original ring & pinnion sets from ? I have had 56 Model A,s & non had 3.27 rears . Are these a MODERN UP GRADE like the tele shocks etc or did some A,s come out factory with them ?? IF not then this must be a modification too.


This thread has been "twisted" WAY off-topic but going to back to the first comment, I believe the point was we should consider putting on tube shocks, an electronic ignition, and an overdrive because it is easier on the car & driver if we plan to tour with our Model-As.


To play Devil's Advocate with your question, can you walk up to any Model-A and at a glance tell what rear end gear ratio it has installed?

Tom Wesenberg 07-29-2013 05:10 PM

Re: Success with improvements for touring
 

If I lived in a hot southern state I'd like A/C in my Model A. I don't care about driving faster than 45, but even at 45 I think the engine should be running slower, so I'd like a 3.27 ring and pinion or an overdrive. The overdrive gives more ratios, but in the interest of keeping the car more stock looking, and to save money, I'd probably go with the 3.27 ring and pinion. BTW, Bert's sells them.

I'll keep an open mind, but I'm still trying to figure out how an electronic ignition can make the engine run like it has a counterweighted crankshaft.:confused: Counterweights should help a little with making the engine smoother, but the main thing they do is help keep the crankshaft from wanting to bend away from the centerline, and this will greatly add to the babbit life, or bearings, if you have the inserts. But how does what triggers the coil have any effect on the crankshaft?:confused: In fact, if the points and plugs are good, I don't see how the electronic ignition is of any benefit to improve performance.:confused:

Jim/GA 07-29-2013 05:26 PM

Re: Success with improvements for touring
 

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tom Wesenberg (Post 696943)

<snip>

I'll keep an open mind, but I'm still trying to figure out how an electronic ignition can make the engine run like it has a counterweighted crankshaft.:confused: Counterweights should help a little with making the engine smoother, but the main thing they do is help keep the crankshaft from wanting to bend away from the centerline, and this will greatly add to the babbit life, or bearings, if you have the inserts. But how does what triggers the coil have any effect on the crankshaft?:confused: In fact, if the points and plugs are good, I don't see how the electronic ignition is of any benefit to improve performance.:confused:

I am pretty sure the FSI distributor being discussed has a centrifugal advance in it, like a B engine dist. You do not manually advance the timing, as in a stock A. It is that, more than the electronic trigger, that can make an engine run smoother. The advance is a function of RPM, like the B. Smoother may be because it is not advanced quite as much at any given RPM as you were doing manually. YMMV.

The next generation out of Detroit combined vacuum advance with centrifugal, so that when under load (vacuum drops) the advance falls back (less knock under load). Then it advances under light load (high vacuum).

Personally, I like to have the advance on the column on my A because I can retard a bit under heavy load and advance all I want under light load. I like the control that gives me. But, yes, it does result in me fiddling with the advance a bit in the mountains (not in flat as a pancake SE Texas). That's OK; it's part of the Model A driving experience.

We all restore and drive our Model A's for different reasons.

Viva la difference!

:D

Karl 07-29-2013 06:42 PM

Re: Success with improvements for touring
 

Personally I find it interesting to see what people have done and how they find it works. On my car I've tired to keep it as original looking as possible but over the years have had Modern points , Leakless pumps , Thermostats , Brake Floaters , Indicators, Quail Thermometers, Modern Raduis ball attachments, Inertia Starter drives and Teflon inserts in the drag linkages . Over time for me personally I have discovered that these upgrades all have their own issues and are generally not any superior to original parts that are in good condition . The only thing that I now run with are indicators and brake floaters (as a nod to the apalling standard of drivers I share the road with) every thing else is pretty much standard -Karl

Mitch//pa 07-29-2013 06:44 PM

Re: Success with improvements for touring
 

Quote:

Originally Posted by tbirdtbird (Post 696979)
if you could have absolutely no wobble or play in the dizzy shaft...if you could have the cam lobes absolutely the same exact distance apart and all absolutely the same exact height...
e-ignition changes all this...the spark is in the exact right place at the exact right time each and every time, for each and every cyl. and yes it has centrif. advance...and if i didn't see/drive/hear it myself i never would have believed it. Now I can see why these are used extensively in the Great Race. The engine vibration is nearly non-existent and the nasty harmonic is gone. This has to be intuitively better for the bearings, and if you can't believe the bearings will be happier please don't waste valuable bandwidth by complaining about it.

do you run a stock coil with a FSI dist?

pat in Santa Cruz 07-29-2013 06:45 PM

Re: Success with improvements for touring
 

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tom Wesenberg (Post 696943)
I'll keep an open mind, but I'm still trying to figure out how an electronic ignition can make the engine run like it has a counterweighted crankshaft.:confused:

the comparison probably resulted from the original distributor having a worn top plate center hole, which allows the point gap to change as the plate shifts off center. An engine with this wear runs really unevenly. I've seen some with a movement of .020, which means that at one extreme the points do not even open or at the other they open to .040, depending on where the plate was when they were gapped..

BILL WILLIAMSON 07-29-2013 06:55 PM

Re: Success with improvements for touring
 

I think we should do what we WANT to do, who wants their car to be EGGZACTLY like Joe Blow's car?? And, if JIM/TX, would sound his "CANNON" we could be on to new things & quit "wasting" hard drive space! LOL (Or did that only apply in school when you wasted scratch paper???)LOL
Bill W.

SeaSlugs 07-29-2013 07:16 PM

Re: Success with improvements for touring
 

Quote:

Originally Posted by quickchange (Post 696881)
So where do we find these 3.27 original ring & pinnion sets from ? I have had 56 Model A,s & non had 3.27 rears . Are these a MODERN UP GRADE like the tele shocks etc or did some A,s come out factory with them ?? IF not then this must be a modification too.

just get a low speed AA worm drive, 6.6:1!!! haha no mountian too tall or tree too high:D

Ron W 07-29-2013 07:28 PM

Re: Success with improvements for touring
 

Brent can't help stirring the pot. Henry Ford improved his cars. I did too. Ron W

Mitch//pa 07-29-2013 07:37 PM

Re: Success with improvements for touring
 

Not sure if this is comparable or not, i have done many conversions on point dist early 70's gm's to HEI and it makes a huge difference in performance , idle quality etc. . Of course its a much hotter spark but you also get the exact trigger of the dist pickup.

BRENT in 10-uh-C 07-29-2013 09:44 PM

Re: Success with improvements for touring
 

Quote:

Originally Posted by tbirdtbird (Post 696948)
Tom, that is just what I said about e-ignition until I tried it. I'd give you the explanation of where the smoothness is coming from but I am sure somebody will beat me up if I do, so I will keep quiet, since my initial post was taken as a mandate for the entire world by someone who happens to hate Texas and Texans after being here in '08. http://model-a-ford.com/LOL.gif http://model-a-ford.com/LOL.gif http://model-a-ford.com/LOL.gif

Again, your perception. :rolleyes: ....but not a factual statement! ;)



Quote:

Originally Posted by Ron W (Post 697016)
Brent can't help stirring the pot. Henry Ford improved his cars. I did too. Ron W

That is probably a very true statement! :o



With regard to the FS Ignition system, I have actually been a dealer for them for quite a few years now so I am very 'versed' on how they work. I initially installed them on my banger-powered race cars. I also used to (4 to 5+ years ago) install them on quite a few customer's cars. I did that for a couple of reasons. The main reason was back then, reproduction distributor cams were being manufactured off-shore and the points did not break at true 90 apart creating timing issues.

The second reason why I quit was I was experiencing quite a bit of module failures with units I had installed and with folks who had installed their own units. JD & Mel was very helpful with working with me on warrantying them and troubleshooting but the 'pain was not worth the gain' when my customers were having failures while on tour or out driving. Paying a tow bill to get back home and the stress' involved with the downtime slowly created customers asking why are we doing this.

Then along comes a US manufactured dist. cam. that is CNC machined with exacting tolerances while simultaneously designed to increase the coil saturation time to increase the coil's spark output. Adding to that was my ability to hone housing bushings instead of reaming them and the quality of shaft fit came up where the distributer could produce a timed spark very near what a 'Hall-effect' triggered system could produce.

Later in time we concluded that it was a voltage spike and/or an intermittent ground issue that was the likely culprit of the FS failures. Again, running extra wires to circumvent this, or carrying extra distributors/modules as back-ups for the minute gain just did not seem practical. So for me it begs the question just how hot of a spark is necessary to have a good running engine? My view is for a low-compression engine such as a Model-A (under 7:1 CR), "lighting off" the fuel mixture is not that hard to do with a stock ignition system, especially with the combustion chamber design and slow RPMs. Maybe I am still "gun-shy", ...or maybe I'm just lazy, but if a set of points will create nearly the same result with less cost and greater reliability, why take the chance?

So I guess I will back-up and offer my apologies for stirring the pot. It is your car, and you are the one that it must please. Best wishes to you and I bid you many happy and safe touring miles ahead.

(signed; from a former Texan himself)

.

BILL WILLIAMSON 07-30-2013 12:49 AM

Re: Success with improvements for touring
 

See, Model A'ing & discussions about it, CAN be great fun, without anyone gettin' their undies twisted or foamin' at the mouth. Even with my house A.C. on the fritz, it's been a good day! Bill W.

TerryH 07-30-2013 01:28 AM

Re: Success with improvements for touring
 

I have been on lots of tours here in S. California, and it sure is funny that almost no one with a stock Model A will venture anywhere except on surface streets. Most of these cars are not totally restored, mechanically perfect and never will be, and for some reason, many Model A owners will never achieve that. The cars that do tour do not have all of those mods, but many do have OD, HC head, and cast iron brake drums...which I guess you really don't need either, as long as you can still track down NOS steel drums. Most also have added the second tail light and turn signals, along with seat belts.....again, not real Model A, and those seat belts sure do look unoriginal too, and really aren't necessary if you just drive carefully....
Let's face it, as someone else has already said, you are never going to get these two camps together; both are right in that they can make valid points in each of their viewpoints.....there is no right or wrong, just folks enjoying their cars as they deem best. I think presenting both viewpoints is great and folks can decide for themselves, as most touring folks that I have seen do............

mhsprecher 07-30-2013 12:18 PM

Re: Success with improvements for touring
 

I like to hear the experiences, as well. It's a little like religion. As in many things, I straddle both camps. I want to keep my car as stock as possible, but I also want it to be reliable and safe as it can be. I want bright lights and as good a windshield wiper as I can get. I also want to stop as well as I can given stock or nearly stock parts. I will install an aluminum fan. I have a NuEx voltage cutout that I will install. I like the idea of putting in a thermostat, but I won't do anything that I really don't need to do.

I put in halogen and LED bulbs for safety's sake. I want to tour and drive my car regularly, but I don't want to keep up with people on interstates. I have actually driven a short distance on one, but will do so only when I have to. I am a tall guy and I wish the seat went back a little further as the driving experience would be better.

Best of all worlds would be to have a pretty bone stock one and another that was tweaked here and there for better performance and safety. I don't have the funds or storage for that. On seat belts, driving carefully will not help you if some knucklehead runs into you, so those are an absolute must for me.

This is a great, great forum. I welcome all suggestions, ideas, comments and opinions on topic. This is a wonderful community. Participating is as much fun as owning the car.

Mike V. Florida 07-30-2013 01:17 PM

Re: Success with improvements for touring
 

I received some messages so I want to make something clear here. I believe the changes he made worked. I believe his car runs smoother. I beleive he has better pick up.

I wanted to make a point along with Brent's statements that while these expensive things worked, they might not have been necessary as compared to properly restored stock or use of different parts available during the day.

As for those that like to say then why did they change it in later cars I ask you what other cars had individual coils with multiple firing of the plugs like today?

Purdy Swoft 07-30-2013 03:00 PM

Re: Success with improvements for touring
 

Model T's had multiple coils. Looks like the newer cars are going the other way with the coils on the valve covers for each cylinder.

Mitch//pa 07-30-2013 03:08 PM

Re: Success with improvements for touring
 

Quote:

Originally Posted by Purdy Swoft (Post 697460)
Model T's had multiple coils. Looks like the newer cars are going the other way with the coils on the valve covers for each cylinder.

its called COP (coil on plug)

Bill in Al 07-30-2013 03:12 PM

Re: Success with improvements for touring
 

I'm not telling what I've got but I sure do like it better now.I do wish I had two A's.That would make me even happier.


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