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-   -   Time lapse Model A engine build (https://www.fordbarn.com/forum/showthread.php?t=288860)

holdover 10-18-2020 06:49 PM

Time lapse Model A engine build
 

Saw this on Youtube be nice if it would go this fast... enjoy



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GGn-5VoS-m8

Chris in WNC 10-18-2020 07:26 PM

Re: Time lapse Model A engine build
 

Great fun to watch.
Liked their heating coil they used to loosen head & manifold studs.

It would have been really easy to paint the oil pan black.
Same for green on the intake manifold & flywheel housing.
My OCD is showing a little......

Mountain Dew 10-18-2020 07:31 PM

Re: Time lapse Model A engine build
 

Worthless

holdover 10-18-2020 09:03 PM

Re: Time lapse Model A engine build
 

That heat coil is amazing. The local garage that I often help out has one. It works well especially on manifold bolts. Pricey, but once you have one you'll wonder how you lived without it. The next best thing to owning one yourself , is to know someone that does.

shew01 10-19-2020 04:15 AM

Re: Time lapse Model A engine build
 

Quote:

Originally Posted by holdover (Post 1942895)
Saw this on Youtube be nice if it would go this fast... enjoy



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GGn-5VoS-m8


I enjoyed the video. Thanks for posting.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

30 Closed Cab PU 10-19-2020 08:13 AM

Re: Time lapse Model A engine build
 

Fun to watch, went so fast but I did not notice any assembly lube on the crank and cam, perhaps I missed it.



Wonder why they tow strap started it, shouldn't it start via the starter? Am asking since I have never seen a fresh rebuild start.

Licensed to kill 10-19-2020 08:25 AM

Re: Time lapse Model A engine build
 

Quote:

Originally Posted by 30 Closed Cab PU (Post 1943033)


Wonder why they tow strap started it, shouldn't it start via the starter? Am asking since I have never seen a fresh rebuild start.

The engine was too tight for the starter to turn over. There is another video about the assembly and he mentions it.

alexiskai 10-19-2020 08:49 AM

Re: Time lapse Model A engine build
 

Quote:

Originally Posted by 30 Closed Cab PU (Post 1943033)
Fun to watch, went so fast but I did not notice any assembly lube on the crank and cam, perhaps I missed it.



Wonder why they tow strap started it, shouldn't it start via the starter? Am asking since I have never seen a fresh rebuild start.

If you search for "Hagerty" on previous forum posts you'll find a multi-page argument about the bearing clearance choices made by the engine rebuilder they hired to do the babbitt. Tight bearings is the reason for the tow start.

BRENT in 10-uh-C 10-19-2020 09:26 AM

Re: Time lapse Model A engine build
 

Quote:

Originally Posted by alexiskai (Post 1943051)
If you search for "Hagerty" on previous forum posts you'll find a multi-page argument about the bearing clearance choices made by the engine rebuilder they hired to do the babbitt. Tight bearings is the reason for the tow start.

I have participated on Fordbarn for better than 20 years or so, and this has always been a topic of discussion. Originally when Ford authorized shops did the rebuild, they used a large burnishing machine to 'fluidize' the cast bearing material so it would conform to the journal pins. Fast forwarding to modern-era rebuilders, most must compete on a price-point which does not allow the extra time for them to burnish bearings. The alternatives at that point are to set them bearing clearance up looser so the starter can rotate the engine, -or set the clearances tighter requiring mechanical assisted starting until the engine has self-burnished the bearing. Part of the issue is if the bearing clearances are left loose enough to rotate freely, as the engine breaks-in the clearances becomes excessive creating noises the car owner complains about. Since most do not wish to adjust (tighten) the clearances themselves, it is easier for the engine rebuilder to set-up the engine tighter to alleviate the need for adjustment within 500-1000 miles.

700rpm 10-19-2020 09:50 AM

Re: Time lapse Model A engine build
 

“Go slowly for a more harmonious outcome.” ~Old Sioux saying.

alexiskai 10-19-2020 10:27 AM

Re: Time lapse Model A engine build
 

Quote:

Originally Posted by BRENT in 10-uh-C (Post 1943066)
Originally when Ford authorized shops did the rebuild, they used a large burnishing machine to 'fluidize' the cast bearing material so it would conform to the journal pins. Fast forwarding to modern-era rebuilders, most must compete on a price-point which does not allow the extra time for them to burnish bearings. The alternatives at that point are to set them bearing clearance up looser so the starter can rotate the engine, or set the clearances tighter requiring mechanical assisted starting until the engine has self-burnished the bearing.

Is the crankshaft hard enough to serve as an adequate substitute for the OEM roller burnishing?

BRENT in 10-uh-C 10-19-2020 12:55 PM

Re: Time lapse Model A engine build
 

Quote:

Originally Posted by alexiskai (Post 1943086)
Is the crankshaft hard enough to serve as an adequate substitute for the OEM roller burnishing?

Yes. The crankshaft was the original burnisher. Even on a rebuild where the crankshaft has been resized, it is an advantage to use the crankshaft to burnish.

Licensed to kill 10-19-2020 05:32 PM

Re: Time lapse Model A engine build
 

Quote:

Originally Posted by BRENT in 10-uh-C (Post 1943066)
I have participated on Fordbarn for better than 20 years or so, and this has always been a topic of discussion. Originally when Ford authorized shops did the rebuild, they used a large burnishing machine to 'fluidize' the cast bearing material so it would conform to the journal pins. Fast forwarding to modern-era rebuilders, most must compete on a price-point which does not allow the extra time for them to burnish bearings. The alternatives at that point are to set them bearing clearance up looser so the starter can rotate the engine, -or set the clearances tighter requiring mechanical assisted starting until the engine has self-burnished the bearing. Part of the issue is if the bearing clearances are left loose enough to rotate freely, as the engine breaks-in the clearances becomes excessive creating noises the car owner complains about. Since most do not wish to adjust (tighten) the clearances themselves, it is easier for the engine rebuilder to set-up the engine tighter to alleviate the need for adjustment within 500-1000 miles.

Are you saying that the assembly of the engine in question was done correctly being assembled as tight as it was (in the other video of the assembly)?. I ask because, as i remember there was a LOT of dissension among the ranks regarding the tight tolerances used on the bearings which surprised me as i would have thought that they guys from Hagerty would know the proper procedure prior to assembling the engine.

duke36 10-19-2020 09:58 PM

Re: Time lapse Model A engine build
 

How about the red coating (some builders use this) which looks like Glyptal from past decades, that's inside the block ? Can that come off and / or does it block passages in any way?

Chris in WNC 10-20-2020 07:00 AM

Re: Time lapse Model A engine build
 

I have disassembled several engines that were being run regularly, and a few that have sat up for years, including a flathead Dodge I rescued from an overgrown fence row.
Never saw any meaningful amount of rust inside either crankcase or valve chamber.
For that reason I would not bother with the red paint inside a new engine....
j.m.h.o.

BRENT in 10-uh-C 10-20-2020 08:23 AM

Re: Time lapse Model A engine build
 

Quote:

Originally Posted by Licensed to kill (Post 1943234)
Are you saying that the assembly of the engine in question was done correctly being assembled as tight as it was (in the other video of the assembly)?. I ask because, as i remember there was a LOT of dissension among the ranks regarding the tight tolerances used on the bearings which surprised me as i would have thought that they guys from Hagerty would know the proper procedure prior to assembling the engine.

Often times in specialty topics such as this, jealousy and personal agendas tend to overshadow facts. Dissention is often the results.

While I have not reviewed the video in awhile, as I recall, they towed the 'tight' engine for 20 feet or so and the engine started. I don't recall any sliding the drive wheels because the engine was so tight, or jumping up & down on the hand crank because the engine would not turn. As I stated earlier, the Ford-approved procedure was to burnish the cast bearings. I doubt there are a handful of us engine rebuilders that do this operation today. For the ones that choose not to burnish as part of the rebuilding procedure, then setting clearances up a little tighter and allowing the cast bearing to fluidize during the initial starting is likely the next best way.



Quote:

Originally Posted by duke36 (Post 1943308)
How about the red coating (some builders use this) which looks like Glyptal from past decades, that's inside the block ? Can that come off and / or does it block passages in any way?

This topic has also been discussed at length here. "Can that come off and block passages..."? Yes it can, ...however it usually does that when the insulating varnish was applied poorly. Some rebuilders never have this become an issue on engines they rebuild.

This controversy (IMHO) stems from the facts that not all engine rebuilders have a good way to clean parts. And, ...not all engine rebuilders take the time to thoroughly clean all the parts. The cleaning process when done correctly takes time and requires a large financial investment to have the proper equipment. I personally have a 3 step process in 3 separate machines that takes it from greasy to clean. It really should not matter whether the cleaning process is done thermally or by chemicals as long as the oils are completely removed from the pores of the cast iron. Residual oils in pores, crevasses, or obscure corners are what causes the varnish not to adhere properly. Get them clean where the varnish can grip into those pores, and you will find it is very difficult to remove it during the next rebuild.

Just so we are clear, the main reason for using varnish (-such as Glyptol which is still available) is for insulation and oil control. Rust prevention is secondary or even thirdly. Windage inside of a Model-A engine is pretty rampant which affects the engine oil location and temperature. Having a smooth surface where the oil does not cling to that surface is ideal. This ultimately places the oil back in the pan where it can be cooled. Varnishing also seals the metal pores where any suspended debris cannot attach itself to. This debris can be anything from the cast iron being scraped off of the cylinder walls due to friction, to piston rings being abraded away, to metal wearing off of a camshaft lobe or tappet, -or just general carbon & coked oil. As far as insulating properties, consider what is being transferred into the valve chamber are through the roof and backside of the chamber -and why. While some argue the effectiveness of the insulation, I feel it really boils down to whether it is a value to you, and what level of quality you are seeking for you engine. Are you wanting the best you can have, -or is mediocre acceptable for your engine?

.
.

rotorwrench 10-20-2020 10:09 AM

Re: Time lapse Model A engine build
 

Ford turned their engines with large electric motors to bed them in. The motor circuit had a large amp meter that employees on the run in line would monitor to make sure that the current dropped to a specific range of amps that indicated that the engine was indeed ready for service and could be sent on to the different assembly lines there and around the country. This also gave them a chance to check for coolant system leaks and lubrication system function & leakage. If an engine took too many amps to turn or not enough then it was set aside for further repair evaluation.

I don't know how tight they were to start or what was considered acceptable but they undoubtedly had limitations to go by.

Most rebuilders set them up to where they can be started and run on a test stand to insure a unit will work for the customer. I'd say it was set up tighter than what most rebuilders would consider as normal if the starter wouldn't turn it over. Lubricant has to have a clearance to do it's job. The clearance should not have to be "opened up" by turning a crank in a too tight no clearance situation. The clearance can be kept to a minimum if proper machining practices are followed. Bedding in processes should smooth out minute high spots in a bearing surface rather than actually opening up a clearance that was not there to begin with.

I've seen so many reality TV productions that just have to add drama that I tend to avoid them like the plague whether they are about cars, motorcycles, or just life in general.

BRENT in 10-uh-C 10-20-2020 11:24 AM

Re: Time lapse Model A engine build
 

Quote:

Originally Posted by rotorwrench (Post 1943401)
Ford turned their engines with large electric motors to bed them in. The motor circuit had a large amp meter that employees on the run in line would monitor to make sure that the current dropped to a specific range of amps that indicated that the engine was indeed ready for service and could be sent on to the different assembly lines there and around the country. This also gave them a chance to check for coolant system leaks and lubrication system function & leakage. If an engine took too many amps to turn or not enough then it was set aside for further repair evaluation.

I don't know how tight they were to start or what was considered acceptable but they undoubtedly had limitations to go by.

Most rebuilders set them up to where they can be started and run on a test stand to insure a unit will work for the customer. I'd say it was set up tighter than what most rebuilders would consider as normal if the starter wouldn't turn it over. Lubricant has to have a clearance to do it's job. The clearance should not have to be "opened up" by turning a crank in a too tight no clearance situation. The clearance can be kept to a minimum if proper machining practices are followed. Bedding in processes should smooth out minute high spots in a bearing surface rather than actually opening up a clearance that was not there to begin with.

I've seen so many reality TV productions that just have to add drama that I tend to avoid them like the plague whether they are about cars, motorcycles, or just life in general.

I am going to add something that many do not understand about this process. When most crankshaft grinders resize a crankshaft, we are using a process call plunge grinding. Unlike a cylindrical grinder, we engage the grinder stone to the journal pin coming in 90 perpendicular, and once we have achieved the target size, we move the carriage over to the adjacent area of the pin and grind that to size. Although the quality of tooling has been improved over the years, the ability to make both cuts on the same journal equal the same number is beyond difficult at best. For my personal machine, if I can replicate a grind to a quarter-thousandth (0.00025"), then I am happy. Even if you hit the differential at a half-thousandth, your eye will see a faint line difference however your fingernail will likely never detect it. This differential is usually camouflaged by using a cork belt to blend the differences in sizing. So when the cast bearing is heated due to friction, it tends to become fluid in the tight areas and flows towards the looser clearanced areas. It really is not over-tightened as the clearances are probably around 0.00075" to 0.001" in certain areas. There is still oil clearance in the adjacent areas around the journal pin.

Bud 10-21-2020 03:24 PM

Re: Time lapse Model A engine build
 

Some things I think the video skipped include pressure testing the block for cracks and the process for dialing in the alignment of the flywheel housing. Sealing up the oil pan and the gasket at the front is a process that is, in my opinion, glossed over. What else was not shown that should have?

1930artdeco 10-22-2020 10:53 AM

Re: Time lapse Model A engine build
 

Just for my own edumication since I am not well versed in machining an engine. I just want to be clear that 'fluidizing' the bearings means setting the bearing clearance to basically zero and (via the electric motor) 'melting' or 'wearing' the bearings to the correct size using the crank? This way they don't have to cut the bearings to size? Maybe it is just the term that is throwing me off.



I also am assuming that this is the best way to set the bearings (if you can) so that each bearing matches its individual journal/rod?


Thanks


Mike


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