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-   -   Right era, wrong type of transportation (https://www.fordbarn.com/forum/showthread.php?t=240444)

Fibber Mcgee 03-08-2018 09:43 AM
Right era, wrong type of transportation
 

2 Attachment(s)
I finally flew in a B-24, I really enjoyed it but I still think the 17 was better.

sidevalve8ba 03-08-2018 10:04 AM
Re: Right era, wrong type of transportation
 

Fibber, I would have to agree with you. I have done the same and I enjoyed the B-17 more.

TonyM 03-08-2018 11:11 AM
Re: Right era, wrong type of transportation
 

I did the Collings Foundation B-17 and the B-25.


And have gotten rides or have crewed several other warbirds over the years.


Was in CAF for many years.


Will do the Collings B-24 this year.

Bob C 03-08-2018 11:31 AM
Re: Right era, wrong type of transportation
 

1 Attachment(s)
I went on the B-24 as that's what my dad flew.

Bob

51 MERC-CT 03-08-2018 12:26 PM
Re: Right era, wrong type of transportation
 

Used to walk the hallowed halls where a high number of the 72,752+ P&WA engines were built.

rotorwrench 03-08-2018 12:33 PM
Re: Right era, wrong type of transportation
 

Pop would see the groups of B-24s on their way home while they were still in route. The B-24 was faster. It didn't quite absorb as much battle damage as the B-17 but it could get through a flack barrage faster for sure.

sidevalve8ba 03-08-2018 01:37 PM
Re: Right era, wrong type of transportation
 

If Collings is in the area again this year I would like to try the B-25. If I was feeling real brave and real rich I'd try the P-51! :D

petehoovie 03-08-2018 01:43 PM
Re: Right era, wrong type of transportation
 

INSTRUCTIONS FOR PILOTS

 -- Every takeoff is optional. Every landing is mandatory.
-- If you push the stick forward, the houses get bigger. If you pull the stick back, they get smaller. That is, unless you keep pulling the stick all the way back, then they get bigger again.
-- Flying isn't dangerous. Crashing is what's dangerous.
-- It's always better to be down here wishing you were up there than up there wishing you were down here.
-- The ONLY time you have too much fuel is when you're on fire.
-- The propeller is just a big fan in front of the plane used to keep the pilot cool. When it stops, you can actually watch the pilot start sweating.
-- When in doubt, hold on to your altitude. No one has ever collided with the sky.
-- A 'good' landing is one from which you can walk away. A 'great' landing is one after which they can use the plane again.
-- Learn from the mistakes of others. You won't live long enough to make all of them yourself.
-- You know you've landed with the wheels up if it takes full power to taxi to the ramp.
-- The probability of survival is inversely proportional to
the angle of arrival. Large angle of arrival, small probability of survival and vice versa.
-- Never let an aircraft take you somewhere your brain didn't get to five minutes earlier.
-- Stay out of clouds. The silver lining everyone keeps talking about might be another airplane going in the opposite direction. Reliable sources also report that mountains have been known to hide out in clouds.
-- Always try to keep the number of landings you make equal to the number of take offs you've made.
-- There are three simple rules for making a smooth landing. Unfortunately no one knows what they are.
-- You start with a bag full of luck and an empty bag of
experience. The trick is to fill the bag of experience before
you empty the bag of luck.
-- Helicopters can't fly; they're just so ugly that the earth repels them.
-- If all you can see out of the window is ground that's going round and round, and all you can hear is commotion coming from the passenger compartment, things are not at all as they should be.
-- In the ongoing battle between objects made of aluminum going hundreds of miles per hour and the ground
going zero miles per hour, the ground has yet to lose.
-- Good judgment comes from experience. Unfortunately, the experience usually comes from bad judgment.
-- It's always a good idea to keep the pointy end going
forward as much as possible.
-- Keep looking around. There's always something you've
missed.
-- Remember, gravity is not just a good idea. It's the law.
And it's not subject to repeal.
-- The three most useless things to a pilot are the altitude above you, runway behind you, and a tenth of a second ago.

TonyM 03-08-2018 03:29 PM
Re: Right era, wrong type of transportation
 

1 Attachment(s)
Flying over the Steel Mills in the B-25 last August.

Karl 03-08-2018 03:47 PM
Re: Right era, wrong type of transportation
 

I feel the B24 certainly lacks the looks of the 17 but was by far the more versatile of the two which is why they made more B24s than any other bomber during the war. The B17 bomb load was also considerably less than the B24's. However the B17 was certainly a fortress knocking down 23 fighters per 1000 sorties way ahead of any thing else including escort fighters ! -Karl

swedishsteel 03-08-2018 04:42 PM
Re: Right era, wrong type of transportation
 

My dad flew 26 missions February through July, 1945 from England over Europe as pilot in a B17. Ran out of gas on first mission, had to leave formation and land in Belgium. Got some holes in his plane, came home several times on less than four engines, but none of his crew got hurt and he flew them home, landing Bradley Field, Conn, July 4, 1945. My brother and I got to fly in the Collings B17 a couple years ago--as we started to roll for taxi, I tried to imagine what was going through the minds of those men that did it for "real". We honor them by telling and retelling what they did.

Henry Floored 03-08-2018 05:07 PM
Re: Right era, wrong type of transportation
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by petehoovie (Post 1602518)
INSTRUCTIONS FOR PILOTS

 -- Every takeoff is optional. Every landing is mandatory.
-- If you push the stick forward, the houses get bigger. If you pull the stick back, they get smaller. That is, unless you keep pulling the stick all the way back, then they get bigger again.
-- Flying isn't dangerous. Crashing is what's dangerous.
-- It's always better to be down here wishing you were up there than up there wishing you were down here.
-- The ONLY time you have too much fuel is when you're on fire.
-- The propeller is just a big fan in front of the plane used to keep the pilot cool. When it stops, you can actually watch the pilot start sweating.
-- When in doubt, hold on to your altitude. No one has ever collided with the sky.
-- A 'good' landing is one from which you can walk away. A 'great' landing is one after which they can use the plane again.
-- Learn from the mistakes of others. You won't live long enough to make all of them yourself.
-- You know you've landed with the wheels up if it takes full power to taxi to the ramp.
-- The probability of survival is inversely proportional to
the angle of arrival. Large angle of arrival, small probability of survival and vice versa.
-- Never let an aircraft take you somewhere your brain didn't get to five minutes earlier.
-- Stay out of clouds. The silver lining everyone keeps talking about might be another airplane going in the opposite direction. Reliable sources also report that mountains have been known to hide out in clouds.
-- Always try to keep the number of landings you make equal to the number of take offs you've made.
-- There are three simple rules for making a smooth landing. Unfortunately no one knows what they are.
-- You start with a bag full of luck and an empty bag of
experience. The trick is to fill the bag of experience before
you empty the bag of luck.
-- Helicopters can't fly; they're just so ugly that the earth repels them.
-- If all you can see out of the window is ground that's going round and round, and all you can hear is commotion coming from the passenger compartment, things are not at all as they should be.
-- In the ongoing battle between objects made of aluminum going hundreds of miles per hour and the ground
going zero miles per hour, the ground has yet to lose.
-- Good judgment comes from experience. Unfortunately, the experience usually comes from bad judgment.
-- It's always a good idea to keep the pointy end going
forward as much as possible.
-- Keep looking around. There's always something you've
missed.
-- Remember, gravity is not just a good idea. It's the law.
And it's not subject to repeal.
-- The three most useless things to a pilot are the altitude above you, runway behind you, and a tenth of a second ago.
This is great! Thanks for sharing.

Fibber Mcgee 03-08-2018 05:39 PM
Re: Right era, wrong type of transportation
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by sidevalve8ba (Post 1602517)
If Collings is in the area again this year I would like to try the B-25. If I was feeling real brave and real rich I'd try the P-51! :D
The 25 was supposed to be there but didn't make it (engine trouble) hopefully it is at your stop.

Hoop 03-08-2018 05:41 PM
Re: Right era, wrong type of transportation
 

Karl, I have the greatest respect for the bomber crews of WW2 ... and have to admit that would have been my last choice of assignments.

The subject of scoring air victories is one that remains a huge debate. "Overcrediting" is responsible for much of the misinformation about actual losses.

"However the B17 was certainly a fortress knocking down 23 fighters per 1000 sorties way ahead of any thing else including escort fighters !"

Army Air Forces Statistical Digest. WWII shows victories, in the ETO, 6,098 by heavy bombers, 7,422 by fighters, and 103 by medium bombers. And, I wouldn't bet on any of that. As far as facts, yours are as good as any.

Here's an example you might appreciate:

"? April 1944***United States Army Air Forces vs RAF***An unusual incident involving friendly fire occurred during the Burma campaign when the crew of a US B-25 fired at two approaching aircraft and later claimed to have shot down two Japanese fighters. The fighters were RAF Spitfires, one of which was piloted by New Zealand ace Alan Peart who was recorded by a ground radio unit saying, "Keep clear. The bastards are shooting at us." Both Spitfires returned safely to base, without damage.[35]"

Usually the estimates of claimed victories vs actual start at 2:1 and 3:1 ... to extremes beyond that.

It's the "fog of war." BUT, no doubt about the bravery, skill, etc., etc., of the men who flew them. Very special guys.

(Incidentally, few people are aware that the Spitfire had the landing gear handle on the right side of the cockpit. Who in the hell would do that to an otherwise near perfect airplane?)

rotorwrench 03-08-2018 07:12 PM
Re: Right era, wrong type of transportation
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Karl (Post 1602561)
I feel the B24 certainly lacks the looks of the 17 but was by far the more versatile of the two which is why they made more B24s than any other bomber during the war. The B17 bomb load was also considerably less than the B24's. However the B17 was certainly a fortress knocking down 23 fighters per 1000 sorties way ahead of any thing else including escort fighters ! -Karl
Thanks to Ford Motor Co and others, there were a lot of B-24s built and a fair amount of Privateers for the Navy. It's true that the B-24 had a lot more room to carry bombs with two bays but a person has to remember that they were going long distances so more often they had to sacrifice payload for fuel. Bomb loads were not that much more on average unless the target was closer. The P&W R1830 engines were about the same HP (1200) but the B-24 was a more modern wing design. It also had tricycle gear so it could take off at a faster speed and it had a good 40 to 50 MPH more overall cruise speed than the older B-17 design depending on the configuration. Both ships normally had a 10-man crew. If 10 ships got shot down, the cost was 100 men out of action or dead. Certainly a rough way to make a living.

barnstuf 03-08-2018 07:41 PM
Re: Right era, wrong type of transportation
 

A great thread on World War !! aircraft. My sons have a Dad who served in the US Army Air Corps in WWII. Yes, that is me. Any other WWII veterans on Fordbarn?

My Air Corps service 963rd Air Engineering Sqdn, 9th Air Force, Europe., Jan 1945 to Dec 1945, ETO. Prior to Air Corps was in US Army, 29th Division, ETO

For you non veterans ETO is European Theater of Operations.

cmbrucew 03-08-2018 09:23 PM
Re: Right era, wrong type of transportation
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by petehoovie (Post 1602518)
INSTRUCTIONS FOR PILOTS

 -- Every takeoff is optional. Every landing is mandatory.
-- If you push the stick forward, the houses get bigger. If you pull the stick back, they get smaller. That is, unless you keep pulling the stick all the way back, then they get bigger again.
-- Flying isn't dangerous. Crashing is what's dangerous.
-- It's always better to be down here wishing you were up there than up there wishing you were down here.
-- The ONLY time you have too much fuel is when you're on fire.
-- The propeller is just a big fan in front of the plane used to keep the pilot cool. When it stops, you can actually watch the pilot start sweating.
-- When in doubt, hold on to your altitude. No one has ever collided with the sky.
-- A 'good' landing is one from which you can walk away. A 'great' landing is one after which they can use the plane again.
-- Learn from the mistakes of others. You won't live long enough to make all of them yourself.
-- You know you've landed with the wheels up if it takes full power to taxi to the ramp.
-- The probability of survival is inversely proportional to
the angle of arrival. Large angle of arrival, small probability of survival and vice versa.
-- Never let an aircraft take you somewhere your brain didn't get to five minutes earlier.
-- Stay out of clouds. The silver lining everyone keeps talking about might be another airplane going in the opposite direction. Reliable sources also report that mountains have been known to hide out in clouds.
-- Always try to keep the number of landings you make equal to the number of take offs you've made.
-- There are three simple rules for making a smooth landing. Unfortunately no one knows what they are.
-- You start with a bag full of luck and an empty bag of
experience. The trick is to fill the bag of experience before
you empty the bag of luck.
-- Helicopters can't fly; they're just so ugly that the earth repels them.
-- If all you can see out of the window is ground that's going round and round, and all you can hear is commotion coming from the passenger compartment, things are not at all as they should be.
-- In the ongoing battle between objects made of aluminum going hundreds of miles per hour and the ground
going zero miles per hour, the ground has yet to lose.
-- Good judgment comes from experience. Unfortunately, the experience usually comes from bad judgment.
-- It's always a good idea to keep the pointy end going
forward as much as possible.
-- Keep looking around. There's always something you've
missed.
-- Remember, gravity is not just a good idea. It's the law.
And it's not subject to repeal.
-- The three most useless things to a pilot are the altitude above you, runway behind you, and a tenth of a second ago.
I remember Snake Taylor saying " A landing is just a controlled crash".

Bruce

Vintage Copper 47 03-08-2018 09:26 PM
Re: Right era, wrong type of transportation
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by rotorwrench (Post 1602488)
Pop would see the groups of B-24s on their way home while they were still in route. The B-24 was faster. It didn't quite absorb as much battle damage as the B-17 but it could get through a flack barrage faster for sure.
True Rotorwrench... The 24 was faster and carried a heavier bomb load.. but the Flying Fortress was just so....

SEXY! :eek:

petehoovie 03-08-2018 10:00 PM
Re: Right era, wrong type of transportation
 

Two and a half minutes to get your juices flowing > https://player.vimeo.com/video/93587997

38bill 03-08-2018 10:08 PM
Re: Right era, wrong type of transportation
 

My late Father-In-Law got me into flying. He was an Air Corps instructor at Luke Field during the war. Of course most of his flying was in the AT6 while instructing but he flew many other types. Sometime after he got out the Mpls Reserves upgraded from AT6's to P51's so he got to fly them when ever he wanted. I can only imagine how fun that would have been.


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