Engine Swap
 

I have a 35 ford with the original engine, which is still running well, but showing low oil pressure and excessive wear in the oil analysis. I have an opportunity to buy another engine. I need your help regarding the identity and specifics of the replacement engine and the suitability of this engine swap.


The seller says it is a 59AB type engine that is a 239ci, 24 stud Mercury engine that has been overhauled by a now deceased, well respected flathead mechanic. There is a Ford authorized reconditioned engine plate from Washington, DC riveted to the block that has B3228 stamped in it. The now deceased mechanic would have overhauled the engine after it was reconditioned by Ford. It has been sitting for a number of years in a garage and not run since overhaul. The seller is selling due to his own declining health. The seller is knowledgeable about early V8’s and says this will bolt to my present transmission and motor mounts and that I can use my present starter, generator, distributor and carburetor. I removed the intake manifold, and the valley is clean with no sludge or dirt, has pools of clean oil, and has adjustable lifters. I removed a couple of spark plugs and from what I can see (not much) the valves and combustion chambers looks clean and dry. The engine rotates as it should with a socket and ratchet. I asked the seller if he had a list of installed parts, knew if it had been bored, or knew if the crank had been turned undersize, and he did not know. On top of the bell housing where I expected to see 59, instead, there is 25, K307, 81-A. On the front of the engine below the distributor mount and above the lower pulley is cast 6049B. Above the distributor mount, upside down, is cast P12H.


I have attached photos and will appreciate any and all comments. I would also welcome your estimates of what a fair price would be.

Re: Engine Swap
 

Sure looks like a 221 ci 81A 38/39. Could have been bored. Has the right pulley on the crank to work with your gen, You may have to get a set of Merc spacers cause the 35 mounts if I remember correct are narrower than the later mounting and also sit lower on the block. Other things such as your exh manifolds will work. You can take a set of 37-39 radiator hoses, cut them into rotate one end and use a pipe to splice them and that will make your top radiator connection.

Re: Engine Swap
 

It is not a 59AB engine, it is an early 24 stud 81A engine - from a 221 cubic inch 38 or 39 Ford. It is also not a Mercury engine.

There is really no way to know the condition - other than to take it completely apart or taking a gamble and putting it in the car and firing it up.

You mentioned that it has not been run since overhaul - seems strange that it would have pools of oil in the intake valley if this were true?

If you can get it for a decent price, with a guarantee that once you put it in that it will have good compression, good oil pressure and not burn oil, then it could work out just fine. I would not pay high-dollars for it - especially without any guarantee that it will run well and not have any issues.

Best of luck!

Re: Engine Swap
 

https://www.fordbarn.com/forum/attac...1&d=1689796691

https://www.fordbarn.com/forum/attac...2&d=1689796691

https://www.fordbarn.com/forum/attac...5&d=1689796691

https://www.fordbarn.com/forum/attac...7&d=1689796691

Re: Engine Swap
 

Some early production manual transmission 51 Mercs also had the same oil pan as the 49 and 50 Mercs..

Re: Engine Swap
 

Humble Opinion:

If your original engine will pull at least 70 lb of compression across all cylinders, and starts and runs fine, it will probably go as many miles as you are likely to put on an 88 year old car. When it starts knocking and blowing smoke, then start looking for a rebuild or replacement.

Re: Engine Swap
 

If your '35 is all original I would want to keep the 21-stud engine. Your block is probably good since you're not having any heating issues so rather than buy this engine use the money towards rebuilding yours. If this 24-stud engine is cheap enough buy it and stash it away. It looks like a quality rebuilt engine judging by the outside, and I don't think it has been run. How do I know it's never been run, none of the head studs are leaking yet.

Re: Engine Swap
 

No need for spacers as mentioned in post #2. I installed the exact same engine in a '35 tudor a few yrs ago.

Re: Engine Swap
 

From what has been said, it sounds like the same engine that is installed in my '35 Fordor.

Re: Engine Swap
 

Thanks to all that replied. Always valuable information here! My plan would be to buy this one at a good price and keep it as a spare for when needed. I will run the original engine for as long as it runs well. The existing engine has 90 PSI compression and 40 PSI oil pressure when cold, but when warm (170) with 15W40 drops to 14 psi at 45 MPH and when you come to a stop, goes to 0 with modern direct reading gauge. No knocks yet. I had the oil analyzed by Blackstone Labs and here are the results with the Blackstone norm being for babbit bearing Ford flatheads:

Tin My Engine 16, Blackstone Norm 2
Copper My Engine 49, Blackstone Norm 20
Lead My Engine 196, Blackstone Norm 59
Chromium My Engine 5, Blackstone Norm 2
Iron My Engine 84, Blackstone Norm 41

Blackstone comments:
Lead is the main metal that shows wear at bearing babbit. In older engines like this one, though, lead tends to read high from leaded fuel blow-by. Even if only unleaded has been used recently, it could be residual from days gone by. Copper and tin are other metals that can show bearing wear, and they're also higher than we tend to see from Ford flathead V-8 engines—compare to universal averages. Chrome (rings) and iron (steel parts) are also elevated.

I considered rebuilding the original, but it requires pouring new babbit mains, line boring and finding costly replacements for the “floater” rod bearings. I believe I can purchase the new engine for well less than ½ of what the overhaul of the original one would cost and the replacement has inserts for mains and rods.

Re: Engine Swap
 

This is a tricky one. If you can get it for a good price, I would think it would be smart to have a spare. However, many of us here can attest, there are a lot of "rebuilt" flatheads lying on garage floors. Whether this one is or isn't, it's so hard to tell without paperwork.

Plus, what passes as rebuilt for you may not be for others. The paint work indicates someone cared enough to take their time which is usually a good sign.

If you can get it cheap, that I'd say get it. If it's creeping up into the thousands, hard pass. Without the heads and intake off, you are really buying a pig and a poke unless the seller has documentation of what was done.

Re: Engine Swap
 

Re: Engine Swap
 

The easiest thing to do is pull one head, that will answer many questions, It may be a 221 bored to 239, done this many times, not a problem. You can't rebuild one of these like this for less tham two grand these days. Maybe more. They aint getting any cheaper.
Gramps

Re: Engine Swap
 

This new engine does "look like somebody who knew what they were doing rebuilt it" - as it is painted well, they didn't paint over a bunch of things that shouldn't be painted, etc.. You can't know for sure (always a gamble) - but you can make a more informed decision if the seller is willing to let you pull a head. If not, then maybe a guarantee or a negotiated price depending on what you find upon closer inspection.

Here is one plan: You get the new engine, check it out, if it looks good, then you might consider putting it in the car now. Then, have the original engine rebuilt as it should be (taking your time - spreading the costs out), then swap it back in.

Having a running/driving car gives you time to rebuild the original and you can space out the expenses over time (doesn't have to be rebuilt immediately as your car will be on the road with the new engine).

I realize that you're spending money twice, but you'll still have a good spare engine and you'll have the car back to how it should be (original engine) and be enjoying the car the whole time.

There yah have it! LOL

B&S

Re: Engine Swap
 

Another option to consider is pulling the pan on your original engine, cleaning it out, checking the crank and bearing clearances, etc. You'd have a much better idea as to the condition of the lower end after doing this.

Then, maybe put a new oil-pump in it. If you put a later pump (like a 49-53), you'll pickup both volume and pressure. It may require some work on the later pickup to fit the pan, but not really hard stuff to do. Worth at least pondering for a bit . . .

Re: Engine Swap
 

Looking at the pics and with your examination of the valley area with intake removed, I'd sure take a chance on this engine. If it were me, I'd offer $1500 to start negotiations and see what the man says. You can always offer more...:).



Terry

Re: Engine Swap
 

Further to what Bored and Stroked suggested, this is an old post of mine from last fall about low oil pressure on the poured bearing motor in my '36 pickup:

https://www.fordbarn.com/forum/showthread.php?t=317742

I put in high volume Melling M-15 pump from Speedway, USA made, with the late type oil pickup-a small modification needed to the oil pan to fit that pickup. I've run the truck about 1000 miles since then. Pressure remains 45psi at cold startup,40 psi running on the freeway in 75 degree ambient temp, and 10-15 psi at idle after a long freeway drive (with Valvoline VR-1 20/50) . I had concern about increased oil leakage at the rear main since there is no true oil seal there (just a labyrinth "seal") but none is evident. The motor runs nice and strong, as it always has. I realize this is considered a "Band-Aid" solution for increased bearing wear , but it certainly is cost effective and so far, so good-heck, for all I know, at age 76 this motor could outlast me. You might consider trying this as a relatively inexpensive step, along with purchasing the later motor in question. The oil pump swap is really pretty straightforward, and you can Plastigauge the mains and see where you're at in terms of wear.

Adam

Re: Engine Swap
 

i thought mercurys were 255

Re: Engine Swap
 

They were from 1949 - 1953. The earlier Mercury engine, including the 59A, were 239.

Re: Engine Swap
 

I would be very suspect of an engine that has doubtful parentage, with the claim that it has been 'overhauled', overhauled and rebuilt are two different things. Many people call an engine that has been repainted, overhauled, ie; overhauled with a rattle can.
If the price is cheap enough, in the two hundred or less rang it could be worth the investment, then have it torn down and closely inspected before you go through all of the trouble and expense to install it in your car.
The fact that the engine has been claimed to be a 59 239 CID, wherein it is a 221 CID,
gives an indication of possible other issues.