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-   -   Is There An Electrician In The House? (https://www.fordbarn.com/forum/showthread.php?t=81997)

joeypoconos 09-07-2012 08:28 AM

Re: Is There An Electrician In The House?
 

Tom - the squealing sound that just cropped up appears to be internal to the generator. I oiled the generator some 100+ miles ago so the sound is a mystery to me.

Tom Wesenberg 09-07-2012 10:08 AM

Re: Is There An Electrician In The House?
 

Quote:

Originally Posted by joeypoconos (Post 494393)
Tom - the squealing sound that just cropped up appears to be internal to the generator. I oiled the generator some 100+ miles ago so the sound is a mystery to me.

Sometimes the brushes can make a light sqeal, but a bad bearing should be noticable louder. I'd slip the fan belt off and spin the pulley with your hand to check for any play or rough bearings. While the belt is off you can jump a wire across the two cutout terminals to make the generator spin like a slow electric motor and see if you still get the squeal. I see a lot of front bearings that are shot from lack of lubrication. I install a sealed bearing so the owner won't have to worry about it in the future. The rear bushing only needs a drop or two of oil every year or 2,000 miles.

Remember, generator belts DON'T need to be real tight.

How far do you live from Kurt or Kevin in NJ? Or are you close to any other Model A owners good with electricity?

Jerry Parr WI 09-07-2012 02:50 PM

Re: Is There An Electrician In The House?
 

Quote:

Originally Posted by joeypoconos (Post 494393)
Tom - the squealing sound that just cropped up appears to be internal to the generator. I oiled the generator some 100+ miles ago so the sound is a mystery to me.

I have a generator that recently started squealing after being oiled. Turned out to be the rear bushing in the generator. Not sure why oiling it made the squeal start. Only did it at idle and you can feel the armature vibrating in the bushing. Still works ok.

Bruce Adams 09-07-2012 03:49 PM

Re: Is There An Electrician In The House?
 

Tom,
Kevin lives near Atlantic City, which I guess is 75 miles from Freehold, NJ where Joey appears to be from.

joeypoconos 09-07-2012 04:47 PM

Re: Is There An Electrician In The House?
 

Tom - I don't know Kevin or Kurt.

Tom Wesenberg 09-07-2012 05:13 PM

Re: Is There An Electrician In The House?
 

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jerry Parr WI (Post 494617)
I have a generator that recently started squealing after being oiled. Turned out to be the rear bushing in the generator. Not sure why oiling it made the squeal start. Only did it at idle and you can feel the armature vibrating in the bushing. Still works ok.

Replace the bushing ASAP or you may have to replace some much more expensive parts. A worn bearing or bushing can allow the armature to rub on the pole shoes and that's what can kill the armature and/or field windings.

joeypoconos 09-08-2012 03:02 PM

Re: Is There An Electrician In The House?
 

Latest update.

Close visual inspection uncovered the following:
- Terminal box body is cracked.
- Terminal box grommet jury rigged. Found rubber (resembles inner tube rubber) wrapped around the ignition cable as it exits the firewall. The grommet was cut in half, one half was placed over the ignition cable and the junction box cover put in place.
- One of the fuse holder terminal rivets loose. Bypassed the holder by attaching wire directly to starter. With car off, voltage reads 6.5 at all points. Started car, at low and high idle voltage now above 9.5.
- Battery cables appear to have some age. Time for new ones.

For the heck of it, replaced cut out with an original NOS unit. Voltage still 9.5.

Okay, this one is a bit scary. Added another cable to ground. Secured one end to the bolt holding the ‘primary’ ground strap to the cross member. I had previously sanded, scraped, wire brushed the frame several days ago, repeated the process before affixing cables to cross member. Removed transmission bolt, scraped/sanded/wire brushed and bolted on cable. Started car, at low idle checked voltage at the starter. Multi-meter was set for 10 volts, when I probed the starter connection, the meter went off the hook. Shot right past the max for the 10 volt setting. I did not reset the meter to a higher voltage and try again for fear something might be damaged. Instead, I shut her down, went into the house and reached for a cold one, counted to 1000, several times.
Went through Snyder’s catalogue, will send in an order Monday for replacement parts.
The saga will continue upon receipt of parts. All input greatly appreciated.

Tom Wesenberg 09-09-2012 04:40 AM

Re: Is There An Electrician In The House?
 

What replacement parts were ordered?

What is the setting on the generator adjustable brush?

You shouldn't be reading 9.5 volts and I'm wondering if the generator charge rate is just set too high. Read the voltage at the battery posts with the engine running at fast idle and post your findings.

Terry, NJ 09-09-2012 04:41 AM

Re: Is There An Electrician In The House?
 

Joey P lives about 8 miles from me in Jackson, so fri. I went over and tried to help him out. What I found was a nice 29 Sport Coupe and the wiring all seemed to be in great shape. Nothing was loose or frayed. We tried the alternate ground with a jumper cable. I attached the cable to a head nut and the + side of the battery. No change! We swapped cutouts, he had spares. No Change. We bypassed the fuse on the starter, again, Nothing, It still read from 8 1/2 to 10 volts. Then we tested the meter on my truck battery, it was 12v on the nose. The problem is the generator is producing extra voltage. How or why this can happen is beyond my meager knowledge. The only joker in this pack is the third brush. I understand that output can be varied by the position of this brush. Exactly how and why this is possible, is beyond me.
Terry

joeypoconos 09-09-2012 08:39 AM

Re: Is There An Electrician In The House?
 

Checked battery with multi-meter pole to pole before starting engine - 6.2 volts

Engine running, amp gauge reading 10 amps, 8.5-8.8 volts
Engine running, amp gauge reading 4 amps, 8.5-8.8 volts
Engine running, amp gauge reading 0 amps, 8 volts.


Tom - Parts order on Monday
Junction box (existing one cracked with broken pieces)
Fuse Holder (existing one has loose terminal)
A few more light bulbs (just in case)
Firewall junction box grommet (existing one shot. also found inner tube rubber wrapped around ignition cable to prevent shorting at the firewall. Not sure how effective this will be in the long run)

Tom Wesenberg 09-09-2012 09:27 AM

Re: Is There An Electrician In The House?
 

If the generator is charging the battery at a high enough rate to bring the post voltage from 6.2 to 8.0 then the amp guage should be showing a fairly high charge rate. Make sure the new terminal box studs don't short out against the firewall. I've heard complaints of the screw heads not being recessed enough. Also, you might want to just solder the fuse holer terminals if they are loose.

Bob C 09-09-2012 12:06 PM

Re: Is There An Electrician In The House?
 

I didn't go back and read all your posts but have you removed the generator and removed all the
paint and rust from the generator mounting brackets and the timing gear cover where the generator
mounts so the generator has a good ground?

Bob

joeypoconos 09-10-2012 01:47 PM

Re: Is There An Electrician In The House?
 

Bob C - I'll give that a try.

Tom - As you suggested in an earlier post, connected volt meter to generator case and ground, negative battery post to starter case, junction box wing nut to wing nut with no movement of meter.

Borrowed a circuit/spark plug tester from a buddy. Probed system end to end, everything checked out normal.

Have a buddy that runs a repair business in town. He suggested running a voltage drop test, same as Tom recommended many posts ago. My bad, never ran the test but I will when my better half gets home (needs two people).

My buddy gave me the number of a retired fellow who owned/operated a generator repair business. I called and explained the problem. From my description, he does not think the generator is the culprit but can't be sure. He suggested running a jumper cable from the generator housing to the battery ground post to eliminate a generator grounding problem. I did, nothings changed. He also feels there could be an internal problem with the battery. I'm going to have it tested.

I've been googling the web in search of a similar problem. Came across this link. Although the problem described (almost identical to mine) is with a Harley Davidson, the HD's electrical system appears to be very similar to the Model A's.


http://www.antiquemotorcycle.org/bbo...hp/t-9440.html

joeypoconos 09-25-2012 12:42 PM

Re: Is There An Electrician In The House?
 

I’ve been busy with family business so had to put a temporary hold on “A” trouble shooting. Back in the garage so here’s an update.

Parts arrived from Snyder’s. Terminal box and grommet, bulbs, safety fuse mount set, positive and negative battery cable & strap and two blade aluminum fan (has nothing to do with electrical issues).

1. Had battery tested – no problems found
2. Headlights have repro sockets. As per Les Andrews book, soldered ground wires to bulb sockets and grounded them to headlight buckets.
3. Installed safety fuse mount set.
4. Removed hood, drained cooling system, loosened hoses, pulled radiator out of way
5. With belt disconnected ran a “motor” test on the generator. Generator ‘motors’ as it should. Installed fan blade, buttoned everything up, and adjusted fan belt for ˝ inch play. At this point, cooling system remains drained.
6. Removed old damaged terminal box from firewall. The darned thing fell apart in the process.
7. Removed cylinder head bolt holding ignition cable to head, removed distributor from engine, unscrewed distributor from ignition cable. Slid new terminal box, grommet and ignition cable hold down clamp onto ignition cable.
8. Closely inspected all wiring to/from terminal box. Visually, wiring appears to be good, however, at this stage of the game it can’t hurt to replace with new wiring. Order has been placed. In the interim, re-installed existing wiring to new terminal box. Insured metal conduit, holding the cut-out to terminal box wires, was clear of terminal box post. Re-installed all parts.
9. Filled cooling system.
10. Installed new battery cables and fired her up. Started on 2nd turn of the engine.


Checked voltage readings as follows:
With car off 6.2 volts at all points in system except armature side of cut-out which reads 0 (normal). Amp gauge reads 0.

With car at idle: 6.3 volts at all points except the + side of coil (red wire) which reads 5 volts. Amp gauge reads +1 with lights off -10 with lights on.

With car at high idle:
8 volts at starter
8.2 volts at fuse
8.2 volts other side of fuse
8.8 at cutout battery side
9.5 at cutout armature side
9 at both terminal box posts
9 at coil negative side (black wire)
7 at coil positive side (red wire)
Amp gauge reads +4 with lights off -10 with lights on.


With idle adjusted higher:
8.8 at starter and fuse (both sides)
9 at cutout battery side
9.8 at cutout armature side
9 both terminal box posts
9 coil negative side
7 coil positive side
Amp gauge reads +4 with lights off -10 with lights on.

With car back to normal idle:
6.2 volts everywhere except 4.2 volts at coil positive side,
Amp gauge reads +4 with lights off -10 with lights on.


Turned on the lights, backed her out of the garage and went for a long drive. Amp gauge at -10, turned off lights amp gauge went to +4. Turned high beams on for remainder of journey (switching between high, low and cowl lights while applying brakes etc). No fluctuations of amp gauge. No burnt out bulbs. Car ran great.
Don’t know how to interpret the low voltage reading at the plus side of the coil other than to assume 1) it's normal, or, 2)there’s a problem with the wiring at the terminal box post or 3)???? Also, still have no idea what's causing the voltage to fluctuate.

Bob C 09-25-2012 02:00 PM

Re: Is There An Electrician In The House?
 

The + side of the coil would be the ground from the points through the ignition switch if you have a
positive ground system. The voltage you are reading is probably feeding through the primary winding in
the coil from the hot wire on the negative terminal.

Bob

Tom Wesenberg 09-25-2012 03:56 PM

Re: Is There An Electrician In The House?
 

The + side of the coil goes to the points and is the ground side. If the points are open, then the + side of the coil should read the same as the - side, with the key off or on, and engine stopped. With the engine running the points will be switching the coil off and on, so the + side should read less than the - side, but more than 0.

The bulk of the voltage readings seem to be high, unless the battery is low or weak, or has a poor connection. What is the voltage reading at the battery posts in the center? Also what is the voltage readings on the battery cable ends? Just searching for a voltage drop to indicate a bad connection.

joeypoconos 09-25-2012 07:46 PM

Re: Is There An Electrician In The House?
 

Tom -

Center post to center post 6.2 volts

Cable to cable 6.2 volts

Negative post to positive cable connection on cross member 6.2 volts

Negative cable to positive cable connection on cross member 6.2 volts

Tom Wesenberg 09-25-2012 09:05 PM

Re: Is There An Electrician In The House?
 

8.8 volts at the starter with a high idle and 4 amps showing on the meter, but only 6.2 volts at the battery. I can't see loosing 2.6 volts through battery cables. :confused:

Bob C 09-25-2012 09:42 PM

Re: Is There An Electrician In The House?
 

Also losing over 3/4 volt through cut out.

Napa Skip 09-25-2012 10:17 PM

Re: Is There An Electrician In The House?
 

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tom Wesenberg (Post 505761)
8.8 volts at the starter with a high idle and 4 amps showing on the meter, but only 6.2 volts at the battery. I can't see loosing 2.6 volts through battery cables. :confused:

12-volt (smaller wire gage) cables (believe 0-Gage is recommended for 6-volt systems) or corrosion inside cable terminals?


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