Mechanical Brakes
 

In the question I posted about Electrics I warned you that I also have a question about Mechanical Brakes. This is it …

I read an article (I think it was in the Model A Times about a kit for mechanical brakes by a fellow in New Zealand named Ted Spain aka "Flathead Ted". The article was a report of a work-in-progress. The magazine had acquired a kit, uncovered it's secrets and were installing it on a car.

As I remember the secrets were impressive (the kit indeed made the braked fully floating and self-actuating) and the report was very positive (they expected stopping results on par with hydraulic conversions).

The article warned that the kit was "pricey" and included a web address for Ted which I tried and the web address didn't work.

I am asking anyone who has additional or later information about Mr. Spain and his magic brakes to please post it of send it to me directly.

Thanks

Re: Mechanical Brakes
 

"Magic Brakes" ..... do you really believe there is such a thing as magic, --or sleight of hand?

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Re: Mechanical Brakes
 

Try this link. www.flatheadted.com I just tried it and it works. A number of cars in our local club have his mods installed and the owners are pleased with the results. I personally had a kit and elected to not install it. It is my feeling that the kit does reduce pedal pressure but I see no other advantage. Gar Williams

Re: Mechanical Brakes
 

Re: Mechanical Brakes
 

I have them installed in my 4dr. numerous people in and out of our club comment on them. I do know it is IMPERATIVE they be installed to the letter. consequently, I hear either a very positive response, or the very opposite and they remove them. the floaters can not and will not make up for any deficiencies in your brake system.

Re: Mechanical Brakes
 

ive used them for several yrs now . i think they are a great improvment over stock . as stated , your brakes have to be in good cond. first . i rebuilt mine , new shoes & any worn parts replaced , rods & arms adjusted correctly . the floater design works as advertised . the kit is like $125 or so , but in MHO , it is well spent . wouldnt go back to stock ! ................ steve

Re: Mechanical Brakes
 

the earlier kits had hard to follow instructions and used a reversed roller pin that could be troublesome if not installed with the cotter pin exactly as designed. But the instructions made it difficult in determining what exactly that was. Consequently, many were installed incorrectly and were not working right. Add to that the general tendency of many guys not to read instructions at all and to "improve" on them, and there were many failures to perform as advertised. If installed correctly, they work very well on a good brake system, reducing the pedal pressure enough to make the brakes very responsive. Now the kit has been improved with the addition of a roller integrated pin to eliminate the cotter pin trouble and much better instructions. The kit will not, however, compensate for worn pins, rod eyes, sloppy pedal bushings, worn cam shaft bushings, un arced shoes , shoes not properly centered, thin or warped drums. I have the original Ford brake system on my station wagon, which has the shoes set up and centered by Bob Rentz, and they work remarkably well. The only difference in stopping power is the pedal pressure and even at that its a very small, but noticeable, difference. But some people want every advantage they can get and with brakes, a good argument can be made for getting that advantage.

Re: Mechanical Brakes
 

With Ted's floater kit, I can "lock-up" and skid all four wheels at 20 mph.

Re: Mechanical Brakes
 

Without Ted's floater kit on stock brakes, I can "lock-up" and skid all four wheels at 20 mph.

Re: Mechanical Brakes
 

+1:)

Re: Mechanical Brakes
 

Mike,
DITTO !!

Re: Mechanical Brakes
 

All the time here too..............

FWIW; if you want less pedal pressure, disconnect one of the shoe springs just like Ted instructs you to do with his kit.

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Re: Mechanical Brakes
 

I never knew I could "lock-up and skid all four wheels at 20 mph", until I replaced all worn brake components and adjusted the rods to spec.

Same ol' original setup. Nothin' fancy.

Re: Mechanical Brakes
 

Hi,
I installed Ted's kit on my 29 Coupe using new cast iron drums and original type lining material. The brakes on my car work very well driving the busy streets of Houston, Texas. They stop as well as my late model Dodge truck even without having a power booster. Maybe needing a bit more pedal pressure. The trick with the setup is to adjust with the fronts to stop before the rears, balanced the way todays cars are set. Ford's original balance was with the with the rears stopping first. This has been illustrated with cars having disc rotors in the front and drums at the rear. This has worked for me.
John Wing,
Houston, Texas

Re: Mechanical Brakes
 

Why would anybody want to lock up all four wheels? Isn't this the reason for anti lock brakes on modern cars and aircraft? IMO your not really stopping if your skidding. There is nothing wrong with the stock set up if you set them up the way you're supposed to. Sounds like a poor excuse not to fix your brakes the right way.

Re: Mechanical Brakes
 

IMO, being able to lock up a set of brakes is the first step to be able to stop because it proves you have capability to excerpt enough pressure on the linings and still have pedal travel available. I will concur that being able to lock the brakes does nothing to allow for brake pedal fade as components become warm after repeated braking however having a Flathead Ted kit does nothing to compensate in that area either.

I guess the biggest thing that FT braking kits have done is caused Model A owners to examine their braking system and learn how the system works. With this added awareness and understanding has brought along the ability for hobbyist to have better brakes whether they use the kit, or just learned how to rebuild what they had. I still remember the night back when I was a kid some 40+ years ago when someone showed the Varco brake bands at a Model A club meeting. I remember the "old men" passing them around the room during the meeting causing a commotion, dropping them on the floor during the meeting making a loud ringing sound, ...and the men being skeptical and/or confused. What a difference they made as these guys started using them. :cool: It did put me out of a "job" though, as it was my job prior while we were driving to always keep my hand on the emergency brake and pull it back quickly in case my Dad needed a little more stopping ability. :eek:

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Re: Mechanical Brakes
 

Brent wrote:"I guess the biggest thing that FT braking kits have done is caused Model A owners to examine their braking system and learn how the system works. With this added awareness and understanding has brought along the ability for hobbyist to have better brakes whether they use the kit, or just learned how to rebuild what they had."

I think you are on to something. For years during the 60's and 70's all I heard about Model A brakes was how bad they were. Well, given the terrible shape they were in after years of neglect, sure they were. But as people correct and set them up as originally designed, many are finding they work pretty darn well. Frankly, after driving my Model A's for thousands of miles with good mechanical brakes, I now get rather nervous when I am in an old car with single master cylinder hydraulics.

Re: Mechanical Brakes
 

If I remember the lessons from a long time mechanic who is no longer with us:

ABS is the best thing for braking in history, except on gravel where you want to skid the tires to dig down through the loose material to firmer material underneath. Much of America was unpaved in the time the Ford system was designed.

The rears grab first, so when they skid, you can threshold brake the pedal to keep the fronts from locking, hence the ability to steer in a panic stop.

Without the magic of modern electronics, your best bet to panic stop in 1930 was a skid. Also, Ted's system mimics much of what is stock in the rear brakes of the car. The rear's float, and Ted's system improves on this float, and brings 1937 Bendix full floating technology to the front brakes.

BTW, I installed Ted's system 2 years ago. Along with a leakless water pump they are the best money I've spent on my car.

Ted was very helpful (I had the old, unimproved, directions) and answered my emails overnight. The story in MODEL A TIMES is also very useful in considering this addition to your car.

Remember, the brakes stop the wheel, the tire tread stops the car.

Re: Mechanical Brakes
 

How do your mechanical brakes work after the 3rd or 4th stop light at 40-45mph? I have had my car for 4 years now. In the past I was happy with the brakes if I used my head But this year I have a little more power and a lighted flywheel and my brakes suck not bad on the flat stops but a big down hill with that bumb ass stop light at the bottom they suck big time. I hate to change the look of my car but I am thinking of going with juice brakes

Re: Mechanical Brakes
 

I recently converted my old steel drum brakes to the cast iron drums with new/old type linings on the shoes. Boy, what a difference! The old, steel drums would start to fade on a hot day and after a number of brake applications. So far, no fading with the cast iron drums. I'm a lot more confident stopping with the cast iron drums.
Rog

Re: Mechanical Brakes
 

Ummm, without the use of the Flathead Ted floaters, I can do ten 45 mph - 0 mph panic stops in a row and then still have enough pedal left to slide the wheels if I so choose on each of the cars we rebuild the brakes on. Many others share this same phenominon. THAT may not be good enough for you, --and if so, hydraulics may be what you need to convert to.


BTW, would you feel confident with your converted hydraulics if you went a year or two without checking the master cylinder fluid level?

Re: Mechanical Brakes
 

Who would go even one year without checking the master cylinder level? Even on my new car I check once a month.

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WOW, ...I guess since this is NOT something I would need to do on a Model A equipped with mechanical brakes, I guess I forgot how this 'inconvenience' is such a necessity for you guys!! :D

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Re: Mechanical Brakes
 

I would never put juice brakes on a model A unless it had a V-8 power plant. I have 100 HP model B engine in my Tudor sedan and it stops on a dime even on the HWY cruseing at 60 and stoping they don't fade. I can run right in town with heavy traffic and feel very comfortable only problem is rain and the skinny tires not a lot of surface on the pavement. If you put cast iron drums on (that is a must) and replace all the worn out bushings, levers and pins and install the soft linings you will be amazed how well the original Ford brakes will be. You can even let go of the steering wheel it stops so straight.
Bill

Re: Mechanical Brakes
 

Stick brakes are fine on my motorbike,but my A has hyd and i like them

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Why do you like the hydraulics on your Model A? What is their advantage over the "Stick brakes" in your opinion?

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Re: Mechanical Brakes
 

I had mechanical brakes with all new parts,cast iron drums and floaters. They would stop great. The only trouble is, they were erratic. They would work fine for 2-3 months and then one day at the worst moment grab and shudder in the front.

After 3 years I gave up and put on Bendix hydraulics. Couldn't be happier.

Re: Mechanical Brakes
 

I think that people converting to hydraulic brakes feel more comfortable with their understanding of their adj and operation. Not having done anything with my brakes yet but have red thru Les Andrews on how to it seems intimidating, rollers, cams, weld up and grind, etc. I've had 32's w/ hyd brake conversion and 40's and easy to understand how they work and how to adj the eccentrics, etc. JMO
Paul in CT

Re: Mechanical Brakes
 

Drum brakes=FADE on repeated use. Many wrecked (Mustangs, 442's, 409's) cars got that way when all of the money went into the the engine and none into the brakes.

Drop a 2 HP motor on your 10 Speed, and your caliper brakes won't last very long.

Ted's might help if the shoes/drums are in excellent condition. I can hold my car with the brakes at higher engine speed than I could before conversion.

That doesn't mean you won't have fading, but you can put more force into the brake rods/cranks/pins and hence the shoes with less leg force.

Re: Mechanical Brakes
 

Having had to repair the brakes on a 39 Ford and a 65 Mustang many times I wondered how others faired in my area. The basic problem is usually one or both rear wheel cylinders with get partially or fully stuck from muck.

The problem is simple. In our area we get wide temp swings during the colder months. The temp differentials can cause the fluid to push through the seals and then suck back in with the moisture. The same process that gives you a good whiskey.

So at car shows I started asking people with juice brakes. I asked all years and makes. It was scary the number of people that have been driving their cars with moderate to significant pull when they brake. They had no intention of fixing the brakes because they only drove the car a little.

The only fix for the brake problem is either climate control or driving often. A local guy, one of the Millers that owns Carlisle, has his cars in a climate controlled room. He has never had a brake problem.

I would also like to point out that with juice brakes you still have to make sure the shoes are arched to fit the drums. It could take years to get full brake surface contact if you do not fit the shoes to the drums. You need to find someone with a brake shoe grinder.

So as much as people do not want to listen. The juice brakes are at best equal in braking and more likely to have failures that reduce the total braking. Mechanical brakes take just as much work to set up properly and are unlikely to fail if you select good original parts and certain reproduction parts.
Seems like a no brainer to stick with mechanical brakes.

FWIW we sold the 39 as it was a pain to keep on the road. My 65 convertible Mustang is driven much more often just so I do not have to do more brake work.

Re: Mechanical Brakes
 

Hi BCCHOPIT,
Instead of going to juice brakes, consider CAST IRON brake drums with your mechanical brakes, which are three times thicker than your present steel drums and made from material which expands less than steel drums, thus pretty much eliminating brake fade.
I live in a very hilly area and I am thrilled how I still have plenty of brake power at the stop signs at the bottoms of the steep hills which I did not have before going to the cast iron drums.
Good luck !

Re: Mechanical Brakes
 

Group,

The Ford Service Bulletins detail a method to set the brakes. However, I have not seen in the bulletins a method to hold the brake at the precise lengths.

Andrews book shows a tool to make...What did the Ford Techs use ?

Marc

Re: Mechanical Brakes
 

Thanks for the input guys... I just have to decide if I wont to spend 600 bucks on parts and hope I like them or less then 200 bucks to get the the 48 juice brakes on and know I will be happy. I know all about brake fade in big 1970 cars my buddy in high school almost killed me 3 or 4 time but today my friends AV8 has over 250 hp and he drives like a jack ass and never gets brake fade the car is too light
thanks Bill

UP DATE!!!!

I put 35 brakes up front and 32 brakes out back.
Used Teds kits on all 4 corners and the car stops
On a dime I could not be happier. I don't even think
about my brakes they just work. I can drive hard and
Have 0 problems for 3 years now.