Snyder's Head Problem
 

Just purchased a new 5,5 to 1 head and just found out that when I installed it found out it is thicker than the original by about a 1/16". I called Tom at Snyder's and he told me they had a batch that the tickness was off and would be corrected with the new batch. The top of the studs are about 3 threads shy of being flush with the top of the nut. The goseneck is worse only 1/2 of the nut catches the stud and this is with a new Snyder's outlet! This is totally unacceptable for paying this amount of money for a new part that is supposed to fit perfect. They tried telling me to back off te studs a few turns but come on really? I'm no dummy when it comes to mechanial problems as I've restored a dozen cars over the years and never had the problems of repro parts as I've had with A and T parts. I'm going to mill down the tops of the bosses to brind the dimension equal to an original head so I'll have the 1 thread exposed.
Hate to vent but tis is the 3rd head in the last year that has this problem, so much for the new batch, huh?

Re: Snyder's Head Problem
 

With the problems that Snyder's has been having with the heads 6 to 1 and the 5.5 to 1, makes me wish that, Larry Brumfield was still making his heads.

Re: Snyder's Head Problem
 

Thanks for posting this problem here for others to see.

That's how things get straightened out.

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Yes, I never had any problems with Larry's heads and I must have used a good half a dozen.
Where are ya Larry we need you making those great heads again!

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Head Problem ?? Just back off the studs like Don told you . I have installed three 5.5 and one 6.1 , No problems except one had the wrong gasket with it . Must use a B gasket . I installed a stock 28 head with the FORD script and had to back off some on the studs. Be careful cutting down the bosses as they might be a little thin on the water jacket at that point . What are the problems with the 6.1 head? Bubby Sharp in KY

Re: Snyder's Head Problem
 

Why not use the 3 &3/4 inch length ignition studs they may stick up only slightly more above the nut than stock. This would really be better than backing out the 3&1/2 inch stock length stud. The water neck studs would still be a problem. If you milled 1/16 off the bottom of the head it would raise the compression to 5.9 and solve the stud length problem. There was a discussion about using grade five studs here not too long ago. I know that the grade 5 studs and 55 ft.lb. torque will work good with 5.9 compression heads. I've been running a brumfield 5.9 on my speedster for 13 years with grade 5 studs. The same on my daughters coupe for 15 years. You just end up having to retorque the grade five studs more before they will hold the torque. I used the grade 8 studs on my roadster and torqued them to 65 ft.lb. I haven't had a problem but I just feel now that 65 FT.LBS is way more strain on the 81 year old threads in the block.

Re: Snyder's Head Problem
 

Purdy, yes you can use the longer ignition stud but what about the outlet? There are no offerings for a longer stud.
Again, I don't mind a thicker casting but if that is the case offer longer bolts to compensate. The regular customer might not care about how many threads show but for judging guys it must be correct.
Milling the bottom casues problems with pistons hitting the head as there is minimal clearance there already. I ran Brumfield heads with grade 8 suds at 60 lbs and never had any problems with a stock Fel-Pro 7013-C
Gasket. The studs can take more but not the 70+ year old blocks.

Re: Snyder's Head Problem
 

Purdy , Do the math and buying the longer studs $ 33 plus the nuts $ 3.45 plus the water neck studs $ 2.95 would total $39.40 . Compared to $ 15.75 for grade 5 set . I considered doing what you suggested but didn't due to cost and delay .

Re: Snyder's Head Problem
 

You must be a glutton for punishment. I have bought 25 of these heads in the past 4 months and have not had any problems like this. I simply add .060 to the recommended height of the stud. This is probably 1/2 of one thread. BTW, I do engines for judging and have never lost a point for thread length.

Re: Snyder's Head Problem
 

Bubba, I'm looking in the Snyders catalog. My catalog is a 2011. I haven't got the 2012 yet. The 3&3/4 inch studs that I am refering to are grade 5 . These studs are listed at $1.75 each times 12 equals $21.00 plus $2.50 for the pair of outlet studs equals $23.50 plus $3.45 for the grade 5 head nut set equals $26.95 That is only $11.00 more than the standard length grade 5 stud and nut set that is 1/16 inch too short or $13.00 less than the $39.95 chrome moly stud and nut set that is also too short. It just seems that only $11.00 is not too much to pay for studs that would have full benefit of all of the block threads and still protrude through the nut. There will still be a problem with the too short water neck studs. I haven't installed one of the new Snyder heads and I'm not saying that the other methods won't work. I would just rather use the longer studs.

Re: Snyder's Head Problem
 

With all due respect, the problem has not been with Snyders, ...it has been with finding US foundaries that can consistantly pour cast iron. Don and I have had several conversation regarding this topic. Based on what he has been receiving, it appears he can get an equal to, -or better product by having them cast off-shore however he is trying to make the Made in the US thing work. The problem is most US foundaries now do not have much experience with cast iron as most of them only do alloy now because that is what most manufacturing has gone to. As far as the 6:1, again there aren't any issues with the heads, ...it is the tooling has gone back to be totally redone so the machining process can be automated in the future.

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Shame the head is not to size. Try calling ARP 805-339-2200. Their studs are better than grade 8 and are quality products. Tell them the dimensions and length of threads you need. They have then in 1/4 inch increments. They have matching nuts and washers.

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The guy I talked to at ARP had no clue as to what a Model A Ford is. If you have a part number going in and don't mention "Model A" then you should be OK.

Re: Snyder's Head Problem
 

Going over grade 8 the next weak link is the block. If you torque the studs to stretch
correctly you will start pulling up the block and cause sealing problems.
They were designed for grade 5 at 50-55lbs. you can get away with grade 8 at
60-65lbs. but still take a chance on pulling up the deck.
I know some have done it and gotten away with it but it won't work for everyone.

Re: Snyder's Head Problem
 

The studs are one aspect of the thicker head. What about the distributor drive shaft? With a thicker head is it right to assume that the drive shaft is not fully seated?

Re: Snyder's Head Problem
 

There was a discussion on this same problem a couple of years ago. The link below will take you to the thread here on Fordbarn.

https://fordbarn.com/forum/showthread...t=snyders+head

Re: Snyder's Head Problem
 

I had the same problem with my Snyder 6.1 head and got the same response fron Snyders. Backing off threads on a high compression head is NOT a good solution and for me was not an option. I bought an End Mill Bit and chucked it in my drill press and with LOTS of measurements dressed the bosses down to original specs.Problem solves.

Brent is right. Any time someone has something, especially a new product, manufactured he and his new customers can expect some degree of trial and error as the bugs are worked out. Ideally the bugs are worked out at the factory, BUT......

I am sure Snyders will correct the problem on the next batch of heads and I still will buy fron Snyders. Ain't nobody mad.

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How do you all install block studs? It's always been my thought and M O to simply seal them and run em in finger tight. That being the case, what's the issue with 1 turn up? Isn't the idea of a stud to turn in the base as the nut torques? Maybe I'm too anal about that detail, but it works in race motors up to 15:1. Also, if the block is that bad it might be time for some threaded inserts. Not heli-coil, bad idea in some blocks...just sayin?

Re: Snyder's Head Problem
 

I have purchased and installed a 6:1 head. I did have to back the studs out a little to get the proper stud length above the nut. I don't really have a problem with that. The only issue I had with the heads was the surface finish on the cast. It was really rough with some really ugly areas. I ground some of those areas down but that too changes the appearance also. It seems that the issue is with the head suppliers as was mentioned before. Has anyone else observed this?
Cal

Re: Snyder's Head Problem
 

[QUOTE=theHIGHLANDER;402095]How do you all install block studs? It's always been my thought and M O to simply seal them and run em in finger tight. That being the case, what's the issue with 1 turn up?

That may work in Newer engine blocks but not something that has been heat cycled for 80 plus years.

The studs have to be tight in the block to attain the torque they're meant for. Now even more that we're upping the compression ratio albeit 1.5 points say but still compression is going to put more load on the studs and block threads.

We were told the same as everyone else it seems to back off the threads. Well for us doing the work that isn't an option for us as we want the engine to be right when it leaves our shop.

I just did a head it took me about 20 minutes from setup to finish and removed .050" on all of the stud holes plus the water neck pad.

Someone mentioned that it wasn't Snyder's fault ? but who sells the heads?
Harry Truman was famous for saying "The Buck stops here".

Not a big deal for anyone to do the modification as long as you have a milling machine.
Just the idea that we have to modify a new part to fit.

You can see in the picture that the amount removed doesn't alter the head cosmetically.

Re: Snyder's Head Problem
 

Anytime you use a stud in anything, the stud is, and should always be wrench tight!

If you don't, you will be pulling on the threads, rather then the block, and you have created a weak link.


Herm.

Re: Snyder's Head Problem
 

Good Grief, There are lots of companies that pour engine cast. finding a U.S. Co. to pour is easy, its the mold that has to be made right, as far as venting to make them fill out in all corners, and the right amount of shrinkage that is needed. So if the mold isn't right, the pours will be bad. The final say on where it will be cast at, ALWAYS COMES DOWN TO MONEY! But it is the Responsibility of who ever had a product made, to make sure the item is made right, before ther put out for sale, not just to recoup your losses on the flawed batch. What would you say, these are made with flaws, but they are good enough for you, you can always wait for the next batch, and buy a good one at the same price. I wonder who would except a flawed bearing from me! Should I say, better luck next time!

Re: Snyder's Head Problem
 

Amen to that! Can't have a dime of my money for flawed product. Geeze , we have enough of that already in this 'hobby'..where 'you have to buy it to see if it fits the application' and if it doesn't then make it fit :mad:.

While I'm not an engineer, it doesn't make any sense for FORD to engineer a block with X number of threads ANYWHERE in that block....and not have them used for the purpose intended. And, my understanding relating to torque and head studs and nuts is that....studs screwed in all the way provide sufficient holding strength to hold without breaking , under the intended torque; while the function of the head nuts is to provide the clamping force (TORQUE) to fords specs. Now, someone explain to me how this works when done in a NEW block vs 80 some year old block threads...and the torque that ford engineered and even the HIGHER torque that we use today....with less thread useage:confused:

Re: Snyder's Head Problem
 

J&M,
It's nice to know that YOU do the good work that you state and state logic that matches your good work. Wish your business was on the left coast!
I posted below before seeing you post, or I wouldn't have posted my thots, as you did a better job saying , in essence, same same.
One question: did you take down the dist mounting surface same amount , for dist shaft to fit accurately...or wasn't that necessary?

Re: Snyder's Head Problem
 

I have been sourcing parts overseas since the 70's and you are right it always comes down to money. Profit margins always interfere with quality. I can build an exact replica of any golf club manufactured today with the same components. I can also build and exact replica with sub standard materials with the same look. Higher profit margins less quality.

I don't discount the complications in building this product but to ask your customer to fix what you should have already done is a sham. Who wouldn't spend a little more on a part "Guaranteed To Fit".

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We've haven't machined the boss for the distributor as we've found that it's ok where it's at.

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I'm not familiar with the process used to complete the manufacture of the head, but if the stud bosses are machine in the first place (as obviously the surface that mates against the block is), then why not machine to the original/correct dimesions?

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It would cost them more money to fix the bad batch of heads. They don't want to go to the trouble of offering a set of special studs that would solve the problem, even though that would give them another product to sell.

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Just to muddy up the waters here, ...if the stud is a 7/16 -14 threads, doesn't that mean that 14 complete turns of the stud equal's one inch? I know that Larry said the head was 1/4" thicker over stock but I also read above that meskhov's experiences were that it was 1/16th" too thick. If the 1/16th' measurement is indeed true, wouldn't that only be one complete revolution of the stud necessary to equal the length needed to make up the difference? Folks, why are we being so picky when most everything on the vehicle we are OK with it being out of tolerances by more than "one thread", ...right??

Re: Snyder's Head Problem
 

J & M John said, they took of .050 thousandths off the top of the bolt holes to utilize the head bolt, and I would not question that measurement at all, and that made the nuts level with the top of the stud, like they should be.

Now that was the head that J & M had. What makes any body think the all the heads are the same out .050 thousandths, could it be that they very, you wouldn't know unless you checked!

PICKY, we have seen on here many times "WHAT NOT BEING PICKY DOES" to an engine! I guess you wouldn't have to be picky, if it isn't your engine!

Tight stud bolts in anything is Basic Knowledge, and no, that is not even being picky, just what has to be done! Makes a Guy wonder, what other Information would be considered menial!

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Not knowing exactly what I am talking about, but this seems to me like a way to go.

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I only have one question if it is not correct why is it not being returned to the vendor ? It is not a custom item so why is anyone bothering to fix a venders errors ?

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I am trying to understand a couple of things.

The A engine seems to be built like a tank, and 5.5 or 6:1 compression is low-compression in almost every other sense than the A engine. Why worry about 1 less thread into the block? Has anyone actually busted a head by not having the studs all teh way in?

Why should studs be tight in the block? As far as I know, when a stud or bolt goes into a threaded hole, the entire force of the connection is contained in 3 or 4 threads. Is the theory that making teh stud tight moves those 3 or 4 theads deeper into teh bolck?

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What does it matter, the studs are incorrect also. The only way to simulate Ford's original specs is to use NOS studs and mill the head to factory specs. Pouring the cast iron is not the problem, the machining is.

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In this case, many people want an original appearing head with a higher than original compression. The Snyder heads are the only heads of this type available.

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Is this a recent problem with the 5.5 Snyder head as I bought one a year ago and have not installed it yet. Does any one know this info ? Thanks in advance.

Re: Snyder's Head Problem
 

Studs should always be tight,Common sense will tell you why. Some manufacturers have a torque for their studs.
If your building a less than quality engine then I guess less than quality work is okay.
Bill

Re: Snyder's Head Problem
 

I wonder if a guy would ask the two Boys that are pouring the two new Model A blocks about which was harder to do, getting a good pour for a block, or the machining of said blocks!! What would the answer would be???

If building workable patterns was easy, anybody could do it!

Re: Snyder's Head Problem
 

I can't believe that ANYONE WOULD NOT SEAT THE STUDS TIGHTLY!! That's how they were intended to be installed!!
When they're loose, they wobbble, if the stud turns while torqueing, then you're tightening with the coarse threads which equals LESS TORQUE. This way violates all the rules of common sense, proper assembly.
If any stud hole has water below it, it'll leak like a sieve up around the stud & nut.
I always use Locite to seal the threads & tighten them to 10 Ft Lbs.
Ya'll do what you want, but mine don't leak!! Bill W.

Re: Snyder's Head Problem
 

Herm,
This past week, I rec'd the latest email regarding the 'progress' of the attempts to make the new Model A block. I think that the email alluded to the TENTH block pour attempt. Apparently, you are correct in you belief regarding pouring cast/pattern creations vs machining.