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King Pin differences I have some play in the king pins on my 31 coupe will need to be replaced soon. I was checking prices I see model A vendors have them around $70-80 but Napa has them for $154 big difference. Having done some work on 50's vehicles I know there is a difference in materials used. Just wondering if any one knows if any difference in the model A kits ?
2nd question does anyone sell the reamer at a better price then $150 +/- that the venders get or them which is a lot for a reamer that does not even include a driver for the bushing. |
Re: King Pin differences Just used a set from Bratton's on someone's car and they were of excellent quality, even the bushings. As far as I now there is only one manufacturer currently. I highly recommend that you have the spindle bearings pin honed by a machinist rather than use a reamer, it is relatively cheap and you won't wonder why your reamed bushings have noticeable clearance after a few thousand miles.
Show the machinist the parts in proper assembly orientation, including where the bearing goes, so the proper area of the spindle bolt can be measured for the honing. |
Re: King Pin differences You should never ream the bushings.
The reamer leaves wavy surface that feels tight. When put in the car and used the high spots wear quickly giving you a slight amount of play. Properly honed the bushings will be very round and in line. They should be snug such that the pin needs to be twisted through the bushings some. If the pin drops though then they are too loose. Keep in mind the shop should not charge as much as it would cost you to buy the reamer. |
Re: King Pin differences I restored most of my cars back in the 70s & 80s. I'm pretty sure they were all done with a reamer and have never been a problem.
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Re: King Pin differences Just had mine done at a local machine shop that specializes in old cars.They installed my bushing and honed with a Sunnen hone for $40.
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Re: King Pin differences I don't think reaming the bushings will cause any problems at all. It has been done thousands of times over the years. Our model A club has a tool loan program that has lots of model A tools that can be borrowed for free including a nice kingpin reamer. If you have a local club, maybe the club has a tool loan program or possibly a member has a reamer that you can borrow.
Rusty Nelson |
Re: King Pin differences Again,
Reaming works, but not as good as you really want it to work. Been done thousands of times, but honing is the much preferred over the reamer. Reaming fits tight at first, but will rapidly gain a few thou of play that will last a long time. So you go through all the trouble of putting a bunch of new parts in for a tight steering and then end up with some play. Not much, but play. When you hone the bushings will stay tight for a much longer time. So it is your choice. Tight for a long time or tight at first and then a little bit loose for a long time. Personally I like to have my steering as tight as possible so I have honed bushings. PS, not trying to offend, just trying to educate. |
Re: King Pin differences I agree with Kevin. Would you expect your engine builder to ream the wrist pin bushings in your new engine? I don't think so. If you did the engine would be clattering in short order and you would be very unhappy when he told you that is just the way it is.
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Re: King Pin differences I've done both and prefer the feel after they have been honed. I won't go back to reamers.
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Re: King Pin differences We also hone them since we have the machine to do so as honing is far superior over reaming.You are getting an exact and lasting fit. Furthermore I would caution people that the Kingpins supplied recently aren't the same size as a customer brought in a set and I proved to him that there is a difference.
We go one step further and magnaflux the spindles since there's always the chance of having a crack in one of them. They weren't supposed to last this long. |
Re: King Pin differences The problem with a reamer on the A kingpin bushings has to do with the groove in the bearing, if the reamer has a spiral at almost the same angle as the spiral groove in the bushing it will create a 'chatter" as each blade of the reamer passes over the groove, if the spiral of the reamer goes opposite the spiral of the groove then you can get ok results.
Just as you can get a bad reaming job you can also get a bad hone job if the mandrel is damaged or the operator isn't paying attention there is another method that isn't mentioned, there is a machine that bores the bushing, it is a dedicated kingpin boring machine, not very common now, but it can give results as good or better than honing ---if the tooling is in good condition and the operator knows how to use it. On my A I used the reamer/driver, it chattered, the kingpins were very tight to start--too tight, by 10,000 miles they were too loose, I have 1/2"+ movement at the tread, and although it doesn't seem to cause any drivability problems with my car it is on my list of projects for the 25 year service (it has been 25 years since I have done anything more than minor repairs) |
Re: King Pin differences I understand honing by method is more accurate than reaming but can you really tell the difference? How much extra movement does reaming leave versus honing??
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Re: King Pin differences Thanks received a lot of good info here, considering the cost of the reamer I will have to consider getting it done by a shop but usually like to do things my self. Brakes look pretty good so may put off the king pins until fall and kick this around in my head a bit. Do plan on some front end work (tire rods and related) before it goes on the road some more questions to follow:).
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Re: King Pin differences Cost: Reamer expensive, going to use it once (twice= 2 kingpins) in your lifetime.
Honing: pay the man, probably less than half as much as reamer, done. Paul in CT |
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Re: King Pin differences I’m not here to gainsay anything that was previously said, and I have yet to do my own kingpins, but I have worked in precision machine shops for 15 years, and there are several ways that reamers can be configured that will give various results or finishes. A straight flute is the type where the cutting edges or flutes are straight up and down on the shank of the reamer. This will tend to give a series of high’s and low’s or ridges that can wear and loosen up over time. This can be countered by adding an odd number of flutes, say from 6 to 7 so that no two opposite flutes are riding up and down on the high’s and low’s at the same time, propagating the “chatter” condition. Another way to counter this is to have the spiral flutes. This takes the linear frequency out of the equation and along with an odd # of flutes should give a very satisfactory finish if used with the appropriate cutting fluid for the material it’s being used on. Now I’m not saying it’s better than Honing. But if you are going to do it yourself, get the best tool that you can and use good cutting oil. Some of the better oils I’ve seen are actually made from Emu’s oil. Don’t laugh! It works great with early type steels and iron.
If I give my 2 cents worth and you give a penny for my thought, then someone is making money on that deal! lol :D |
Re: King Pin differences A few years back,I bought an old Sunnen pin hone at a swap meet.I took it all apart,cleaned & painted it It was missing the coolant tub & pump but i fixed that with a plastic tote & an aquarium pump.It works well & has paid for itself a few times over.
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Re: King Pin differences Back in the day crankshafts were reconditioned by scraping with a machine in the car using the starter for rotation. This was accepted practice and done regularly. Crankshaft grinders became more popular because they produced a better and more acceptable, longer lasting finish on the journals. This is the same with reamers and kingpins. Reamers do an acceptable job for the short run and to get the car out of the shop or to get it on the road but will not last. Honing leaves a much more polished finish that won't wear in the short term. If you want a lasting job that performs like it should, have them honed to fit. This is also the same theory that is used for the wrist pins and bushings.
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Why do the manufacturers ream bushings? Do you think they were honed originally in 1928? Reaming or honing either one will produce an acceptable finish depending on the skill of the person operating the tool. Wristpin and kingpin bushings have been reamed at the factories for years with excellent results. Continental aircraft engine wristpin bushings are still reamed and they don't clatter and last the full time between overhauls Their is a lot of difference between a precision reamer and a straight bladed adjustable reamer same as their is a difference between a precision hone and a handheld hone. The results of either are only as good as the operator. Bill |
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Kevin, You say you should never ream the bushings,Thats how these cars were built at the factories and they lasted a long time when lubricated properly and the factory manuals specify reaming when replacing bushings. Are the engineers that built these cars wrong? Bill |
Re: King Pin differences There is a difference between reaming slowly, via hand power, and reaming with a motor driven reamer. The manufacturers used a powered reamer for efficiency and the quality of the job. With the right reamer, at the right RPM, the proper coolant and the spindle in a fixtured set-up in a drill press I'm sure I could do a great job, but we do not have that luxury with the hand ream. I'll be sticking with the honed fit.
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I'm not saying that a precision hone won't do an excellent job but, With a precision hand reamer and the understanding of how to use it you can do an excellent job yourself and have the satisfaction of doing your own work as opposed to hiring it done. A kingpin reamer is a lot cheaper than a precision hone. Also I'm sure you know that a"kingpin reamer" is long enough to engage both bushings at the same time for alignment purposes so a fixture is not needed. I'm not looking for an argument but I've done both for quite a few years and each has its place Bill |
Re: King Pin differences I have found that the NAPA stores and other national parts dealers are not competitive with specialty stores like Berts and Snyders. A fuel pump for an old Chevy 216 was over $100 at a local chain store. The same pump at Speedway was less than $50. The local parts store wanted over a $100 for a six volt coil and they are cheaper Berts. The local non chain supply stores have see through gas filters for less than two dollars and the Napa store wants about $4.
The auto parts stores have different price lists and usually charge me full retail prices plus. They charge local repair shops less than full retail. O Rielly Stores seem to be more competitive than other national parts stores. The parts stores wait for 30 days or more for payment from repair shops and I pay cash. A person would think that a cash customer would get a better price. I think a reamer from Enco would be less expensive than one from a Model "A" store. I would try to buy one from a machine tool supplier but I do not know the size and the Ford catalogs do not tell you the size of their reamers. I was told that all of the king pins are the same size for all Ford cars that have straight axles. A friend had an adjustable reamer that we used on my kingpins. I think we honed them after the reamer operation was completed. They turned out great. I belong to the Black Hills Model "T" club. I really enjoy the club. There are about seven machinist that belong to the club. They talk in thousands and 10 thousand of an inch and I always ask how many sixteenths that would be. There are three members that pour babbit bearings. They are kind of laid back and everybody helps everybody else. There is a lot of talent that will be gone someday. |
Re: King Pin differences Seems to me like it's half of one and six dozen of another. I reamed my kingpins 6 years and 14000 miles ago. They're still just as tight as when I first did it. You just have to have a good reamer and use it properly and you won't have any problem. Adjustable reamers are iffy at best. Worn reamers are better but still leave a lot to be desired. Odd number fluted reamers can leave an odd number of highs and lows as can a reamer with an even number of flutes. Reamers are not designed to cut highs and lows. However when used improperly it can happen and does. A lot. If you want to do it your self learn how to do it right. If your going to do it in a machine, make sure the spindle bearings are good. Dial what your going to ream in to avoid trying to force the reamer and causing it to cut oversize or out of round. Use clean cutting oil. If you can find a spiral fluted reamer use it. If you have any doubts take it to a shop and get it honed. A loose front end flopping and wandering down the road is no fun at all (as you probably all ready know if your kingpins are worn). A reamer is designed to cut one size. The tolerance is built into the tool for the cutter grinder and if he does his job everything should work in your favor. Hones can be somewhat variable depending on the operator and his ability to hold tolerance. And I've seen them cut highs and lows too. Especially with a sunnen hone. They usually have a three "fluted" out of round condition that almost looks like an airplane propellor when checked on an air table with electronic indicator and graphing software. And the weird thing is this propellor effect can't be found with normal gaging such as bore or air gages. So to check for out of round you need an air table with the electronic indicator and that won't give size it only gives roundness. So then you still need to use a bore or air gage. (Thank God for computers) So the bottom line is "You make the choice". You can't go wrong unless you really don't have any idea what your doing and if that's the case you better take it to a shop and let them decide what the best way is. Good luck.
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Re: King Pin differences How would I check to condition of my king pins? Thanks
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Joe,,, |
Re: King Pin differences Thanks VW - I'll try that tonight after I get home. You must be up early getting your 10 mile run in....
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Re: King Pin differences Yes bbrocksr I do know of the pilot on the k/p bushing reamer, but that wasn't why I mentioned a fixture. In a manufacturing situation most assuredly an operator loaded a fixture and the reamer sized both holes, using a reamer with no pilot. The fixture would be used to insure the alignment, making a pilot unnecessary and the reamer would be long enough to do the bushings together. Having worked for GM BITD I know that everything was "time studied" and to the General even fractions of a second counted. My point is that a proper reamed hole done under power will be superior to anything one can do on the bench. And pin honing, done by a competent operator, will be even better in my estimation.
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Re: King Pin differences right now i have my king pins out on my '31 coupe. needed bushings. play in them. i took mine to my local machine shop. $35.00 a spindle. press out old install new bushings, and hone with long hone top and bottom together. got the kit from Snyders. also got the tie-rod kit. i thought if one is bad so's the other or it will be soon. JAN.:):):)
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Re: King Pin differences The bushings are about two bucks each. They are cheap and if you make a mistake you would not be out of a lot of money. I think I would do my own and order a couple of extra in case something went wrong. We never had trouble in high school with replacing the bushings using hand tools. The biggest thing was remembering lining up the grease hole. I think that you are making a simple job really hard.
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Re: King Pin differences I think this string is getting a little of silly. I still don't think there is a big difference between honing and reaming. I know I will get a lot of flack from the honing crew, but you know we are working on one of the cheapest cars made in the day. I suspect none but the most finicky person could ever tell the difference once the work is done, between honing and reaming (and maybe not even them). Like my grandmother used to say, "To each his own as the old lady kissed the cow".
Rusty Nelson |
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I am not saying they did not use the reamer in the factory. Early manuals would have you use a reamer because the Sunnen hone type device was not very common. As mentioned a reamer can do the job. The factory is likely to have used a reamer on a fancy machine that reamed and burnished to size. Every thing was held tight and the reamer was not allowed to move so it could not chatter. As pointed out the right type of reamer would do a very good job, but they are more expensive. The factory could have also had a precision cutter and a jig and then burnished them. I do not know what they have done so if someone has the factory info please tell me where I can read about it too. SO comparing what the factory did to what we can do in our shops is not a very good comparison. We can get down to some very special distinctions in the various reamers. Number of flutes, shape of flutes, how much the various shapes will be affected by the grease groove and such. We would get way off the track. For this discussion we need to focus on what would be accessible to the general population. Certain realities. The average guy has two choices. A reamer or machinist with a (hopefully) precision tool. The reamers come in all sorts of designs. If you get a used one from a flea market who know what you are really getting. Straight flutes and enough lead to hopefully get the pair of bushings lined up. I have several of those laying around. Brattton's sells a spiral fluted unit for only $139 for 2012. It is custom made in Canada. I have not heard how good it works. Now you can also spend about $40 to pay an experienced guy to hone the bushings to size. I do not know about costs my brother has two Sunnen hones so I just hand them to him. They should be round and inline when done. Can he screw them up, sure. The reamer in in-experinced hands can mess up a lot too. So for the average guy the best value is paying someone with a hone. Those with access to a reamer go ahead and use it. In either case, check your work. Short of knowing for sure the type of reamer and the experience of the guy doing the reaming, I would always have to push someone to have their bushings honed. |
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