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New to the hobby, first Engine Hi everyone,
I'm just starting my first car / engine project with my dad. he has restored a few old fords and is helping me work on an 8BA flathead that he bought a while ago. He said that this was a great community to get information from so i thought id introduce myself. I'm 22 and this is the first engine i've ever worked on, so i hope you can bare with me as i learn. Ive been doing a lot of reading and research but for every term or concept i learn, i hear another new one. Anyway, after taking the engine apart today i've got a few questions: 1) I measured the bore to be 3.25, but there seems to be a very slight lip at the top of the cylinders (the top cylinder edge slightly overhangs the rest of the cylinder) it doesnt seem very drastic but i can feel it when i run my finger in and out of the cylinder. Is this normal? will it cause wear on the pistons? 2) I know the engine is an 8BA but is there any serial number or any way of identifying which year the engine was built in? just out of curiosity. 3) i've read a few flathead rebuild books but im having trouble discerning what areas of the engine i should be focusing on. I dont have the money or skills to do any major rebuilding, machining, or anything of that sort, so i'd like to focus on simpler and cheaper methods of improving general engine performance and reliability. im not looking to build a racing engine, just something relatively reliable with respectable performance. sorry for the long post and thanks in advance for any answers or advice, john. |
Re: New to the hobby, first Engine The lip you feel is from the top ring, it is normal to have it, what is done depends on how much there is, and what your expectations are.
Clean off the top of the pistons, look for some #s --something like .060, that can tell you the oversize of the pistons the first engine i did all by myself was a flathead in a 46, it had a "ridge"--the lip you talk about, I used a tool called a "ridge reamer" to remove it, my block was bored .060, I just put rings in it, i didn't have anything to measure the bearings, but they didn't look bad to me, I reused them, i did do a valve job, I was in high school, but not auto shop, and the auto shop teacher didn't like me --the metal shop teacher did like me, he snuck the seat grinder box out and i cut the seats in metal shop --during teachers lunch-the valve grinder was broken, i made my own out of a knife sharpener that was part of a can opener and a valve guide, I did buy adjustable lifters. When it was done it ran great, but didn't have much hot idle oil pressure (gauge would read 0)---i drove it for years that way, barely used any oil, and survived much abuse. If you post a lot of pictures you can get help every step of the way here. |
Re: New to the hobby, first Engine About the "ridge" at the tops of the cylinders: The way I understand it, it's kind of harmless on its own, BUT, if you rev the engine much over the RPM it's usually run, the rods will stretch a little and that will allow the top ring to hit the ridge, causing the ring to break, causing major problems. You might be able to rent a ridge reamer at reasonable cost. Good Luck!!
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Re: New to the hobby, first Engine Your local auto parts store may rent you a ridge reamer at a reasonable price. Got a buddy who has one? a neighbor? Where there's a will, there's a way. Hang in there and ask lots of questions.
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Re: New to the hobby, first Engine The ridge developed with the rings and pistons that are in there now. They have "worn together", if you will. A new top ring will not have the wear on it and might slap the ridge, break the ring, scour the cylinder, i.e., lots of bad things.
If you post your location with your name on here, you might get info and tools from those near you to help you with your project. |
Re: New to the hobby, first Engine hay, welcome to the world of the flathead, this is a good place to hang out!
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Re: New to the hobby, first Engine thanks for the replies.
the pistons do have .060 stamped on the top of them. i'm going to try to track down a ridge reamer in my area. how do i know if i should be replacing piston rings and/or bearings? i haven't been able to take a look at the crankshaft, rods, or pistons yet but what should i be looking for when i do? |
Re: New to the hobby, first Engine Welcome aboard
You should ridge ream to remove the ridge. Chances are you won't get the pistons out very easily without it,there is a chance of breaking a ring land I can't say without seeing the ridge.It is fairly basic job to do but you should have some help from someone who knows the correct way to set up the ridge reamer before starting,as you can create some irreparable damage from a botched up job. Some of your buddies or their dads will be able to help if not ask here before you plunge in to the world of fixing old engines and repairing. The reward of having done a fair amount of work yourself and having gained some knowledge is fun thing. "Once again Welcome" Ronnie :D |
Re: New to the hobby, first Engine JohnReb, I am kind of doing the same sort of thing right now that you are. Take a look at http://www.fordbarn.com/forum/showthread.php?t=5331 where I am trying to figure out the extent of rebuild (spell that m-o-n-e-y) that I need on a flathead I just bought. Here is what I have come up with for a plan. (1) I bought a flathead pressure testing kit from Speedway because I have some other blocks I want to check and I will help my friends with flatheads if they need it. If I lived near you, I would test your block asking for only a $40 donation to help pay for the kit or some beer or both.:D
(2) Let me clarify here, the engine currently is a short block. If it passes the pressure test, then I am going to get some plastigage and test the rods and crank bearings with a visual check during this process. (3) If the bearings look good and are within limits, then I am going to replace the one burnt valve I see and lap in the rest. (4) If I am satisfied with all of the tests and works at this stage, I will probably slap heads on it and button up the top of the cylinders without removing the ridge and replacing the rings. It will be labor intensive, but I am thinking that I might try a compression test at this point as the final assurance that I can get a few miles out of this thing. If I am not satisfied with the compression test, then I will have to decide on a complete rebuild or just ridge removal and with new rings. (5) The most controversial thing that I am going to try is pressure washing the shortblock. I have a lot of sludge left from the non-detergent oil. I plan on spraying the lifter valley and bottom end with lots of penetrating oil to try to cut the sludge. Then, I am going to pressure wash everything. I'll blow dry it and then spray on more light oil to protect the exposed bare metal areas. (6) Not really a test, but something necessary is to do is clean out the water passages. I built an engine stand that I call my "flathead rotisserie". I use long screw drivers and anything else handy to get into the water passages and dislodge the crud. Then, I rotate the block onto its nose to let the junk fall out. I am thinking about using the pressure tester to seal the block and pour in muriatic acid or vinegar and let it stand. Anyone know the effect of these chemicals on rubber or neoprene? Best words of advice that I have seen on here are that even if you only get 30,000 miles out of a used engine, that probably is a lifetime given the reduced amount of driving most of us do with these old cars. Sorry to be so long, but maybe there are some things you can consider. Do you have an Early Ford V-8 Club chapter near you? You might find some resources there. |
Re: New to the hobby, first Engine I suggest you find an old motors manual. Try to get one in the mid 50's this will cover all the 24 stud engines. In the front of these manuals, there is a great deal of information on rebuilding all aspects of engines, transmissions , brakes, gauges, wiring etc. Including Packard's, and Hudson's, etc. Welcome Ol' Ron
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Re: New to the hobby, first Engine thanks for the info, tbird, having a plan laid out like that is exactly what i was looking for. and i got a lot of insight from that other thread.
i don't have any means of pressure testing the block, so i might try that magnaflux stuff, or just give it a close visual. honestly i'll probably follow the plan you laid out step by step. the only thing im a little hesitant about is the pressure washing of the block. theres a lot of crap in the cylinders that id like to get out, but i obviously dont want any rust. any thoughts on alternatives or the pros and cons of this? ron, i have a copy of "the complete ford owners handbook of repair and maintenance" it covers 32-55. theres flathead info in there but it also covers brakes, electrical, etc. is there a better / easier to use version out there? thanks again. |
Re: New to the hobby, first Engine You have to make a decision as to how far you dissemble this engine as a few things can't be done unless the block i stripped down.Any ideas as to how far you want to go? Let us know .
Ronnie |
Re: New to the hobby, first Engine i don't have any means of pressure testing the block, so i might try that magnaflux stuff, or just give it a close visual.
Buying a pressure tester from Speedway is cheaper than sending an engine out to be magnafluxed. My advice would be to spend a bit of time reading every post you can, here and on the Hamb, about flatheads. Really aquaint yourself before lifting a finger. Then, dive in. The ultimate learning tool is practical experience. Remember, the only dumb questions are the ones left unasked. |
Re: New to the hobby, first Engine When you clean the water passages I highly recommend using phosphoric acid instead of muriatic. Phosphoric does not attack parent metal near as much as it attacks corrosion.
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Re: New to the hobby, first Engine Great advice from all to address the year if it has narrow belts should be 51 this is the first year of rotatable valves , one more sign its a 51
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Re: New to the hobby, first Engine If you have an Autozone near by, they will "rent" you a ridge reamer for absolutely free. You leave a deposit, take it home, wear out the stones and then return it for full refund of your deposit.
It makes no sense why they would rent that tool or accept the tool back with the stones worn down, but they do! |
Re: New to the hobby, first Engine Sorry boy's there are no stones on a real ridge reamer.
Get your info straight. That is how myths get going. Ronnie :) |
Re: New to the hobby, first Engine Hey 38 Coupe, how long do you let the phosphoric acid sit? Then, what about neutralizing, a water and baking soda mix? Thanks for the tip.
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Re: New to the hobby, first Engine Go to VanPelts Flatheadv8.com website. There is a lot of good flathead information. For the year built numbers try Flathead Jacks website.
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Re: New to the hobby, first Engine Let the phosphoric sit until there is no observable reaction. This may take a couple days to a week. The easy way to do this is to tip your motor up onto the bell housing with the water pumps off and the heads on (cap off the water outlets in the heads). Yes, after the bubbling and fizzing has all stopped drain and refill with water and baking soda and repeat. Again probably at least a couple days. Then flush with a lot of water.
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Re: New to the hobby, first Engine On crap in block: I have been dealing with this for years with my early motor. There were mouse nests in it when I got it, seeds insulation and wood shavings. Constant flushing, used brass screen in radiator hoses, hooked pool filter to it to flush backwards. Never know when the temp would go nuts, somedays no problem at all, 180-190. Finally water in tailpipe & milky pudding on dipstick so I took it out to swap the fresh one in last week, problem with one of my heads so no-go yet.
I pulled the bad head off, gasket was eroded at one of the top holes, still crusty inside so I started poking. Despite all the chemicals, did the vinegar thing too for a week (talk about stink!) there was almost 2" red mud in the bottom center hole! NO wonder, and I had these heads off at initial aquisition and for a valve and seat refinish job, coulda saved a lot of misery! Used garden hose in every hole in conjunction with long screwdriver numerous times, bunch of mud, seeds and scale, it is clean now. Yes I did get water in everything, and spent a long time wiping and sopping and oil canning. Plan on using plain old 10-30 to flush and initial warm up before changing to usual rotella oil. I think it better to wet it and dry it and oil it than to tear completely apart. Also hate to waste a $50 set of gaskets but the chance of cracking due to unhealthy heat distribution worse risk. Also, maybe the late motor may flush better than a '37. I do know I was lucky to get the reliability I did from such a malfunction. |
Re: New to the hobby, first Engine Thanks, 38. Do you think the phosphoric acid will affect head gaskets? I'm thinking that I could do this after all of the other checks I proposed and put the heads on for good. Therefore, after I clean the water passages, I could button up everything, timing cover, pan and intake and install the engine. Or, maybe I'll just use some old head gaskets for the cleaning. Trying to save a step here, what do you think?
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Re: New to the hobby, first Engine I used advice from an old dirt tracker that had his heads off all the time, and painted the fiber gaskets with aluminum paint. They don't stick so bad and tear up, used them over. this last time I am confident enough to use the NOS copper and probably real asbestos I have been saving for permanent. For head bolts high temp silicone is often used at the top of the threads to insure water doesn't weep around the threads and leak out the top. This leak will quit on it's own in time but looks bad where it streaks the fresh painted motor
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Re: New to the hobby, first Engine Quote:
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Re: New to the hobby, first Engine No way will a lead washer be able to hold any torque value.
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Re: New to the hobby, first Engine This product will help lots in sealing head bolts. You could do one at a time re torque and move on to the next one. Napa will have it .
http://www.shanghailoctite.com/templ...s/AVIGS-EN.PDF Ronnie |
Re: New to the hobby, first Engine 60 over is at the max. Have you considered having a pro do your engine?
I just had an engine done and picked up one for a friend too. Here’s what was done. Block boiled and magafluxed. Crankshaft turned. All new bearings, new rods, new pistons, new rings, new cam, new cam gear, new valves, new valve guides, new valve springs, new keepers and sleeved. The rebuild was done by a pro that has been building flatheads for 50 plus years. Do the math for the parts. Then consider that if you made a mistake in the rebuild then you are left with nothing. (remember every valve must be fitted and ground perfectly even at 90 degrees - for that you new a special machine) I bet you will find that any engine done like mine for under $3000.00 is a good deal. At least it was for me. Just my 2 cents |
Re: New to the hobby, first Engine I cut an 8BA apart and the cylinder wall measured .320 on one side and .230 on the other. You can see the amount of core shift, but even so I would be comfortable boring beyond .060. On the thin side the wall would still be .200. A lot depends also on how much rusting has occured in the water jackets.
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Re: New to the hobby, first Engine maybe a dab of silicone....don't remember a lead washer hint...hmmm...could be my fading brain...lol...Mike
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Re: New to the hobby, first Engine Egge machine go as big as .187 over that is 3 times .060" of course you can bore more than .060" over. Not a true statement that .060" is where you should stop. If everything checks out OK bore to the first size that will clean up at, if that is what you want.Your machinist will know how to measure. The valve angle is 45 deg. not 90 deg. Ask old Ron how many flat motors he has done over .060" there are hundreds out there still running.
Ronnie :D |
Re: New to the hobby, first Engine 90 degree at the bottom of the stem. I have seen many use a wheel grinder and not get the cut perfect. Unless of course you use after market adjustable lifters. Maybe I should have made my self clear.
In any event, I was just putting the idea out there trying to help and let him know that there are pit falls in rebuilding your own engine. Trade in your old block that is 60 over get a total rebuild back to orginal specs and sleaved or, bore out your 60 over? No question what I would do. But that's just me. |
Re: New to the hobby, first Engine Why did you sleeve the engine it would be cheaper to throw out the block and start again. It was bored more than .060 to install sleeves.. I understand the valve tips @ 90 deg. My thoughts .
Ronnie |
Re: New to the hobby, first Engine I've only built a few engines at .060" over. Most of my engines are .125" over, with a few .187", this and a 4 1/8 crank give 296ci. I feel 60 ove is a wast of time and money. I also believe in having the block bake cleaned and Maged for cracks. This is an investment in reliability. Increasing displacement , increases compression and both of these increase torque. In this day and age building an engine, any engine can be expensive, But why build a beautiful house on a bad foundation?
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Re: New to the hobby, first Engine Quote:
I traded the block as a core. |
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