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THINKING ABOUT 6v. ALTERNATOR INSTALL If I were to install a 60 amp 6v pos. Grd ALT. are there any other things I would need to do to make it right or better. Also do I want to stay pos. Grd. I would like to have better lights,signals, horn when running, Thanks for your replys.
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Re: THINKING ABOUT 6v. ALTERNATOR INSTALL no need to reverse ground. An alternator is not needed unless you are going to do a lot of night driving or load up your A with modern electrical assessories. You can have problems with the fan belt being to tight and ruining your water pump bearing. You also are more prone to fan belt squealing. A good stock electrical system works very well unless you overload it with electrical stuff. Most important with a stock system is good grounds! Much written on that subject.
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Re: THINKING ABOUT 6v. ALTERNATOR INSTALL I have a 30 or 35 amp alternator on my coupe with directionals and find that quite adequate. No need for a 60 amp unless you have a lot of power demand such as AC etc. Mine has been a simple, trouble free unit.
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Re: THINKING ABOUT 6v. ALTERNATOR INSTALL The alt is being pushed as the fix all for a part that has done fine for the last 80 years. You need to first look at your electrical systems. Why spend $100 or more when you do not know if it will fix your problems???
Do you know how to troubleshoot with a voltmeter? If you do not then ask someone who does help you. First start with cleaning all your connections and inspecting the connectors for frayed wires, poor crimps, and good solder. Go through and make sure the ground paths are actual paths. In our attempts to restore we do a great job of painting everything. The ground path in the A is battery to frame then through a bunch of paths to other places. The headlights go through the fender brackets, the headlamp bar and through the ball and socket. The engine goes through the springs, shackles, axles and or the engine pans. Make sure your generator is properly set up. Where is your third brush? Do you understand what the third brush does? Good reflectors and good connections will also improve your light. If you drive a lot at night I would switch over to the halogen bulbs that are direct replacements for the original bulbs. They will give you bright light with your generator. They use all the original sockets. Incidentally, do you have original or repro sockets and reflectors in your lamps? The originals work much better and the repro reflector is just not focused properly to work. The horn needs to be properly rebuilt. The horn could need a good taking apart and proper cleaning and lube. What about the horn contact too? Dirt on the switch contacts could reduce the amount of current to make the horn work. Have you played with the horn screw adjustment? You might have to change the settings between parade and driving as you do not have as much current in a parade. The switch to the gen is not without it problems. You have to remember the days when you had a V belt pulley on the alt. If it was the least bit loose you did not get a full rate. Usually the belt would squeal as it slipped if the belt was not so tight the pulley would not move when you pushed it with a finger. I think you will be lucky to find an alt on an A that is not so loose it could be spun with one finger. I have seem them loose enough the alt will spin a couple of revolutions with a flip of your finger. The alt may be able to put out 60 amps, but only if they belt is so tight it can not slip. In reality you are only getting some fraction of that top amperage because you should not tighten the belt tight enough. So if you are going to properly install the alt you best also make sure your water pump is up to the job too. Then there is the other reality. Does the A need more than the 20 amps the generator will output? The answer is NO. Even with the halogen headlight bulbs from Australia you are fine with the regular generator. You would have to put on some major current hog accessories to require an alternator and even then the alt may not be able to really output enough current cause the belt is never tight enough. Then there is the whole reliability myth. There is a lot of people having problems with their alternators. There does not seem to be a month going by where someone is having some kind of troubles. Hope this gives you a better perspective. |
Re: THINKING ABOUT 6v. ALTERNATOR INSTALL I'm with Kevin. A well set up generator with good clean connections to all of the electrical accessories (and the battery!) works superbly. I've been using a totally stock electrical system in my 30 Tudor since 1975; never had a problem on the road (including cross country trips), never overcharged/undercharged a battery, and my batteries typically last about 5 years. If I'm planning a long drive at night (e.g. more than an hour) I might bump up the charge rate with the third brush, but I'm not even sure that I need to do that. Every time I've considered something like a regulator, for example, I keep returning to the "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" mantra. The bone stock Model A is one heckuva piece of engineering.
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Re: THINKING ABOUT 6v. ALTERNATOR INSTALL i changed to an alternator mostly because no maintanance . had trouble with generators lasting on long runs . had one catch fire . generators are just fine , alternators are just evolution ............. steve
6v pos grd 60 amp |
Re: THINKING ABOUT 6v. ALTERNATOR INSTALL Kevin in NJ:
Excellent feedback! Your detailed response is what makes this site so valuable to those of us that are new to the hobby and have a lot to learn. Thanks! |
Re: THINKING ABOUT 6v. ALTERNATOR INSTALL I agree with Steve! The cutout is the biggest problem with a generator. There is no regulation of the charging rate and can over charge and boil the water out of a battery.
An alternator charges at the rate necessary to maintain the battery. While a generator will work adequately on a stock system, you will be marginal when adding turn signals etc. I changed to a 6v. pos. ground alternator and am very happy with the performance. If generators and cutouts are so great why are they not in use today? |
Re: THINKING ABOUT 6v. ALTERNATOR INSTALL Well put Kevin. For a long time juice brakes were highly promoted as a solution for poor brakes. Poor being defined as no maintenance in 75 years. We seem to have reached the point where most understand properly restored mechanical brakes work just fine. We have now moved to an era where the alternator is seen as the solution to all electrical problems. Rather than repair/restore the electrical system just change to an alternator.
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Re: THINKING ABOUT 6v. ALTERNATOR INSTALL an ohm meter is an easy way to check connections and voltage / ground paths for resistance. example put one lead at the battery positive post not the cable clamp and the other to the frame and meter should read 0 ohms.
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Re: THINKING ABOUT 6v. ALTERNATOR INSTALL I would say that if you are visually going to change your generator to an alternator, you should absolutely go with 12V
A 6V ALTERNATOR still won't run a radio, or a CB, or any other accessories. With 12V you can get a jump start from almost anyone, You can find batteries and bulbs all over the place. You can recharge your cellphone. A 6V alternator looks like a 12V alternator, but by staying 6V all your saving is not having to change your 7 light bulbs and put a resister on the coil. It's just my opinion, but I say you should go 12V if you are going to put an alternator on a restored Model A. Things needed for 12V Alternator - New light bulbs - Chrysler ballast resister on the coil - resister hidden in grill shell for the horn. |
Re: THINKING ABOUT 6v. ALTERNATOR INSTALL Quote:
The electrical system doesn't care if it gets the 12 amps @ 6 volts from a generator or an ugly alternator. Good reflectors make good light and a horn that's been cleaned and oiled blows like it should. If you add turn signals, that's no problem with it's minor temporary load. |
Re: THINKING ABOUT 6v. ALTERNATOR INSTALL speaking of jump starting an A. Is there any DC-DC supply on the market that conveniently allows jump starting a 6 volt car off of a 12 volt one?
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Re: THINKING ABOUT 6v. ALTERNATOR INSTALL Do I remember correctly that "Model A Times" reviewed a Voltage Regulator added to the Generator as a better set up than an Alternator?
Mine came with a 60 NuRex, so I run halogen lights and Cat Eye amber driving lamps. These help because most of my summer driving is done at night when it is not 97 degrees and 95% humidity! |
Re: THINKING ABOUT 6v. ALTERNATOR INSTALL Quote:
Also, I plan to remove my alternator and rebuild the original generator. I'll be selling the alternator when I'm done, but that's not happening for a while. I'm thinking of going with one of the regulator in the cutout: http://www.funprojects.com/products/10505r.cfm Anyone have any experience with these? Seems like it would eliminate many of the issues with having a generator. Steve |
Re: THINKING ABOUT 6v. ALTERNATOR INSTALL Quote:
i had it rebuilt, had to take it back for more work the next mo. about a mo. later had to replace the cut-out, with the newer cut-out, it lasted a few week's then i would have to get out and tap on the new cut-out to get it charging agin. maybe my gen. had been rebuilt to many times over the years??. my alt. charge's better, the horn work's all the time, the light's are brighter. after starting the eng. in the morn. the amp. guage show's aprox, +6-8 amps for apox. 30 sec's then back to 0 and stay's there. maybe my gen. was just worn beyound repair, but i would never go back to a gen. JMHO. |
Re: THINKING ABOUT 6v. ALTERNATOR INSTALL This is a very interesting thread! I'm running 6V alternators on 3 of my A's with no problems. Two of the A's have sealed beam headlights and it's nice to be able to honk your horn and have the lights on at the same time. (That problem - thanks to this thread - may be due to lousy ground paths.) I would recommend that for a driving car you have an alternator. Just my two cents worth...
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Re: THINKING ABOUT 6v. ALTERNATOR INSTALL Quote:
You need to jump off of another 6 volt vehicle. Or push it. I find pushing it much easier. Easy to find a couple of volunteers to push on the back bumper and get you moving. Pop the clutch in 2nd gear and you're off. If the only problem you have is a battery that is too weak to crank (or a faulty starter -- which jumping won't help), it will start right up. |
Re: THINKING ABOUT 6v. ALTERNATOR INSTALL The analogy between 6 volt cutout controlled generators and mechanical brakes is solid: If a hundred other niggly little things are all just perfect, both work just fine. The list of potential problem sources is much shorter with 12V alternator and hydraulics; there are good reasons why the whole world switched.
If you do go the alternator route, my advice would be to also go 12V-negative ground. The authenticity and appearance wars have been lost. Might as well get the advantages of easy availability of replacement lights, chargers, batteries, jumps, and accessories, and decreased concern about small voltage drops here and there. You might not think of yourself as someone who loads up his car with goodies, but it's really nice to have the options 12V neg. ground brings if just run a wire and mount an add-on cigarette type electrical plug-in adapter on your firewall or in a kick panel. For example, electric tire/air pump, GPS, hand held spotlight, cell phone charger. You can also get a dealie that plugs in and puts out enough 110 V AC to run a laptop computer or other stuff. You'll need to get a 12V coil and all new bulbs. I had 12 volt field coils installed in my starter, but many folks insist that's not necessary--you will be amazed to have snappy rather than grunter starting. If you've got the common worn out 6V horn, it may work just fine on 12V; I put a load resistor in the line to mine and it works great. Steve |
Re: THINKING ABOUT 6v. ALTERNATOR INSTALL My opinion is you have 2 options. If you want your A to be as close to original as possible "as we do" you keep the 6 volt generator.
If you want to drive your A as a semi modern vehicle, with bright lights, CB's, radios, you use a 12 volt alternator. Then again, i'm someone who feels a 125A 12volt alternator isn't enough in my cars :) An alternator is flat out superior to a DC generator in many ways, from current output, brush wear, voltage regulation and the ONLY reason they used DC generators until the 1960s is they had no way to conveniently rectify high current low voltage AC which an alternator produces. If they had quality silicon diodes in the 1920s and 30's you can bet your life the model A would've had an alternator. All that being said, we're keeping a 6V generator on the A because its one of the things that make it what it is, just like the manual timing advance. |
Re: THINKING ABOUT 6v. ALTERNATOR INSTALL I have a 6v alternator installed in my car. Although my generator was in excellent shape, the alternator made a definite improvement in terms of the brightness of the lights and the horn. Obviously an alternator is not a fix to wiring and other electrical problems.
A good article on altenators versus generators can be found at http://www.rowand.net/shop/tech/alternatorgeneratortheory.htm My main hang-up with the generator was the need to fiddle with the charging rate and the potential long term effect on the battery life. I much prefer the look of the generator and am considering re-installing it with an electronic voltage regulator (I hope Tom Wesenberg still supplies these?) or alternatively going with the fun projects EVR/cutout http://www.funprojects.com/products/10505r.cfm. Perhaps Tom W can pitch in with the benefits of having an EVR and how the EVR setup would compare with the power output and reliability of an alternator. On the alternator question, it’s an easy install. I have the one terminal 6V Nurex positive ground model. The only issue is that to get it to kick in initially you have to rev up the engine or switch on the lights. This is because the one terminal alternator "self-excites". This is not a big problem but it isn’t a perfect setup. There is a way to add an additional wire to one of the alternator terminals (terminal 1) from your ignition switch using a diode to solve this issue or purchasing an ignition switch with an accessory terminal and using that terminal to go to terminal 1 on the alternator. On the old fordbarn “Steve S” had posted an excellent review of how to deal with this. I’m kind of at a loss as to why people are so negative about adding improvements to their cars to improve safety and system reliability. Although the Model A was state-of-the art technology 70 years ago, we all have to admit there have been significant improvements made to automibiles since. I’ve done a number of modifications to my car which haven’t reallyu changed the look (other than the alternator) but I believe make a huge difference in safety and drivability. These include the high compression head, LED tail lights, modern points, centre brake light, Mitchell overdrive, seat belts (only an idiot would not install these IMHO), shortened pitman arm, radiator overflow tank, cast iron brake drums. I’m also currently in the process of installing brake floaters. Speaking from experience, I have jump started a 6V car off of a 12volt battery. Just make sure the polarity is correct and don’t leave the wires hooked up for a prolonged period – just touch the cable ends to the starter terminal when you turn it over. |
Re: THINKING ABOUT 6v. ALTERNATOR INSTALL The alternator puts out more current at lower engine speed because it spins faster due to the smaller pulley. I restored my powerhouse 5 years ago and added the EVR I make and haven't had the cover off since. I don't think I will have the cover off again in my lifetime, unless it's to show someone what they look like inside or to show how easy the EVR is to install. Driving home from S.D. in the dark was no problem with my stock lights with GOOD REFLECTORS and generator. My generator and 6 or more years old junk yard battery carries the lights fine at idle.
While I was at the Bradley celebration in S.D. someone left the door open on their van and the dome light killed the battery enough to not start the van. They immediately came to me assuming I have an old car and must have jumper cables. I only carry jumper cables in the newer cars. |
Re: THINKING ABOUT 6v. ALTERNATOR INSTALL I do a lot of driving at night and my lights, with the alternator, are as strong as my modern Car's headlights, and I can ahooga at the same tiem and am quite pleased with the alternator.
EXCEPT HOW IT LOOKS when people look at the engine pretty much daily. Soooooooooooo I plan to purchase one of Tom W's CVR's and see if its as good as an alternator when I re-install the original generator. |
Re: THINKING ABOUT 6v. ALTERNATOR INSTALL "Although the Model A was state-of-the art technology 70 years ago, we all have to admit there have been significant improvements made to automibiles since. "
The model A was far from state of the art 70 years ago. If you want to see state of the art for the 1920s and 30's you need to look at a Duesenberg. a 1932 supercharged duesy produced 320HP with 4 valves per cylinder and dual overhead cams. a Model A was an affordable, durable, cheap and easy to fix car that most people could afford but there was absolutely nothing high tech about it. |
Re: THINKING ABOUT 6v. ALTERNATOR INSTALL "and I can ahooga at the same tiem and am quite pleased with the alternator."
You know Bruce you have a point. Being able to ahooga at night is a good benefit especially with brighter lights. My point was if your going to upgrade to an alternator, you should upgrade to 12V as well. !2V automatically gives you the huge benefit of literally twice the power. I don't agree with going to a 6 volt alternator at all, seems like a waste. Now you have an alternator on your engine which can be physically seen, while your still running 6 volt bulbs. 12 volt bulbs and 12 volt alternators look the same as the 6 volt counterparts. with a 12volt alt you'd have a 12 volt system, plenty of power, and can jump it from any car going by and your engine compartment still looks the same as if you put a 6 volt alt in. |
Re: THINKING ABOUT 6v. ALTERNATOR INSTALL I have a generator, I can ahoogas at night, I can drive all night,with the halogen lights on ---actually i use then in the day for my charging rate controller.
With the generator I can start the car with a dead battery by push starting, if the battery was to ever get weak there is the hand crank. Battery life---motorcraft battery-9years, delco battery 7 years, ford script repro 3 years, used interstate -6 years, optima 14 years and still going. I have never used a batteryb maintainer, the only modification from stock is a diode in the cutout. As for generator reliability---in the first 5 miles of driving (1972) the repro new cutout failed causing the generator to throw the solder ---i was told that I could resolder it, but that it would just be a tempoary fix, the generator has not been touched except for oiling since then, i put the original cutout (that came with the car) back on, several years later it stuck ---at about the same time I was replacing the diodes on a plymouth, i took a good one and drilled a hole in the cutout relay frame and pressed it in ---it is still there. ---no worries about a loose belt because the generator doesn't need a very tight belt to charge. I don't see how an alternator can improve my reliability or battery life. |
Re: THINKING ABOUT 6v. ALTERNATOR INSTALL I installed a 6V positive grnd 60 amp alternator on our 31 coupe over 15 years ago and it hasn't had any problems. There was no changes to the wiring. Mine is a one wire hook up. I used a 30 amp ammeter, but the guy that I got it from said the 20 amp ammeter would work. I also installed a safety 30 amp fuse on the starter switch. You will probabaly need to use the modern front bearing and sleeve in the front of the water pump I get mine from Bratton pn 12700 cost 13.70 The alternator will put more strain on this bearing and the original style will not hold up under the strain of the alternator and tighter belt adjustment.
On the brighter side you can use the more powerful quartz halogen bulbs and that is the reason that I changed to the alternator. You have to rev the engine to exite the alternator to start to charge. I let the engine idle a bit to get the oil circulating before I blip the throttle. The needle on the ammeter will then jump over to charge for a few seconds and then settle back to about 3 or 4 amps untill more charge is needed. |
Re: THINKING ABOUT 6v. ALTERNATOR INSTALL Picture a beautiful 20 year old women. Now picture her with 8 pierced earings in each ear, one in her nose one in her tongue, pink hair and a large tatoo. Now you know how I feel about the way an alternator looks on a Model A.
Charlie Stephens |
Re: THINKING ABOUT 6v. ALTERNATOR INSTALL You might consider if you go 12 volts, it is more difficult to go back to the generator if you choose to do so.
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Re: THINKING ABOUT 6v. ALTERNATOR INSTALL I'd assume the only thing you change is the starter, bulbs,horn and add a resistor to the coil when switching to 12 volts? Do they make a 12 volt authentic sounding Arooooga for the A?
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Re: THINKING ABOUT 6v. ALTERNATOR INSTALL Quote:
Easier and better looking, if you still care about such, to buy a 12V coil, which will have the resistor built in and look fairly authentic. Repro 12V horns are available. Your call whether they're good enough. It's pretty easy to put a load resistor in the line and make your 6V horn sing without overdoing it. I grabbed one out of my junk box and got lucky first time--works great. I tucked it up out of sight between radiator and shell, near horn conduit hole. Steve |
Re: THINKING ABOUT 6v. ALTERNATOR INSTALL Well I put an alternator in the 30 coupe and I will put one in the 30 tudor when I finish it this coming winter.
The A generator just doesnt put out proper voltage for today's driving in my opinion. Also night driving is a pain with the generator as it will then have to be adjusted for day driving or you overcharge the battery. I run dual tail lights, LED lights, directionals, and a 6 volt AM radio and I dont have all that generator noise on the radio and the Alternator costs only $65 at IOLA and installs in 5 minutes. I am saving the generators for any subsequent owners that want to change back from the alternators. All of this is my own opinion...some of the guys here on the site LOVE generators. I think they and the Cut out are just a pain. Dennis L Oberer Green Bay WI |
Re: THINKING ABOUT 6v. ALTERNATOR INSTALL Well, everyone.; please forgive the rant.. I went through a three year stretch in grad school when I had to push start my Tudor (dead battery... and too cheap/poor to buy another) every time I came home.
I run a 100% stock charging system (oops... with a 20 amp fuse). I have a spot-on ampmeter (yep, I checked). I regulate my charging rate by turning on/off my cowl lights (after-market... separate switch), parking lamps, headlamps, and/or dash lamp. I have LED directionals and third brake light (WOW Does THAT ever get their attention!) (negligible draw). For music, I run my ipod (15 hours of music from 1920 - 1940) through D battery powered speakers. (You should SEE the looks I get at stoplights... and at the bank drive-in!) For communication, I use a mobile phone with its own battery; c'mon, everyone, are any of you really still running CB radios off your "A" circuits? I have never been unable to drive at night, and my cheapo Sears battery is five years old. To me, fiddling with the generator draw is akin to fiddling with the GAV... just part of the joy of driving the "A" "as Henry (Edsel?) built it." Forgive me, everyone. End of rant. We had a great drive today, and we hope to do the same tomorrow. Hope you all fare as well. |
Re: THINKING ABOUT 6v. ALTERNATOR INSTALL To me, fiddling with the generator draw is akin to fiddling with the GAV... just part of the joy of driving the "A" "as Henry (Edsel?) built it."
As a newbe to the hobby, can you please explain what you mean by "fiddling with the generator draw"? thanks |
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