Problems Fuel pump in high temperature.
 

Dear Friends!

Yesterday where I live was 38ºC so driving on the road to my home my car begun to loose power, and stop.
I remember that 13 years ago happened in the same way. I imagined that the fuel pump diaphragm expand, I knew this because the previous owner told me to wrap with wet cloth. Before this I had an electrical pump but I preferred the original one.
Fuel pump is separated from block it is high. It is strange because this must not happen.
I took my radiator out to a professional to see if it is blocked, I tested with different product but no go!

I attach a picture of fuel pump, what do you think?

Re: Problems Fuel pump in high temperature.
 

You had me baffled for a few minutes. The 38C is 100F. I wondered how things got hot at 38F. Raiseing the fuel pump should lower the temperature of the fuel in the pump some but heat also rises so the engine heat is all going up under the top of the hood so it may not help. I don't know what kind of gas you have in Argentina but we have ethenal and other blends of fuel that are causeing problems in the pumps in hot temperatures here. Just to try to pin the spot where the problem is I would put a plastic bag of ice on top of the pump and see if it helps. The other problem with the same effect is a hot coil or condensor. Again a bag of ice on the coil and condensor will cool it in about 10 minutes. A coil or condensor will usually cool in about a half an hour. This is about the same time it takes to change the fuel pump. The pump is changed, the coil cooled and the engine starts. This fooled millions of people for years. Skip Haney an old Ford coil rebuilder has rebuilt 1,000s of coils and "fixed" the vapor lock problem in the pump. But for the past few years real vapor lock is back forming in the pump from this new fuel. I had it on a 1,000 mile trip at 100F or 38C 10 or 12 times. I finially found that if I was moveing above 55 miles per hour I didn't get it and below it started. At 55 there was enough fuel being used that fuel was cool enough that it didn't lock. Below 55 the fuel was in the pump longer and got to hot. I was thinking of a small adjustable return line to the tank to keep the flow higher to coll the pump. The carb has a metering hole at the needle valve of about .100 and the hole in the fuel line is much larger so a small return line with a .060 hole would still allow enough fuel to the carb. I have been involved in a few large projects for the past year and haven't had time to try the return. On my 1,000 mile return trip the temperatures were below 90 and I didn't have the problem. G.M.

Re: Problems Fuel pump in high temperature.
 

If it is heat at the fuel pump causing the problem we call it "vapor lock" here in the states meaning that the fuel in the pump vaporizes and won't pump. Mine does that after sitting in the hot sun for 20 minutes after driving in the hot sun and the engine real hot. I can get it going again by pouring water on the fuel pump but I'm installing an electric fuel pump back by the gas tank to "prime" the mechanical stock pump when I have that problem in the future.

As G.M. said, try cooling the fuel pump with ice or water when you have a problem. If that fixes it then you know you need to put the electric fuel pump back in. You don't need to replace the mechanical stock pump you have, just put the electric pump in the fuel line back by the gas tank so it won't overheat and have the same problem as the mechanical one. Then just use it momentarily to "prime" your stock mechanical pump when needed rather than running it all of the time.

Re: Problems Fuel pump in high temperature.
 

For years I've always brassed up about 1/8in. on the push rod and never had a fuel pump problem. To each his own. Walt

Re: Problems Fuel pump in high temperature.
 

Looks like this setup needs more than an 1/8" pushrod buildup more like 8"-10".:confused:

Re: Problems Fuel pump in high temperature.
 

Walt it don't get to 100 very often where you live. I wasn't a believer in vapor lock very often when we had good gas but this new stuff has got worse the past few years. I changed a lot of fuel pumps myself before finding the real coil problem. The thing is, when you have a problem like this or any problem do only one thing at a time to find the sourse of the problem so you know where the problem really is. Look back 12 or 14 years ago at how I got laughed at when I first said vapor lock was a bad coil. I said time will tell and now when someone mentions vapor lock people will come on and say you have a bad coil. G.M.

Re: Problems Fuel pump in high temperature.
 

If that doesn't fix it then you have a different problem to figure out. If you have a fuel filter that could need replacing. Or, it could be an ignition problem to troubleshoot.

Re: Problems Fuel pump in high temperature.
 

Too me the obvious would be to see what and how much push rod or rods are in place,that has to be about 16"-20" above cam you have there.Someone over the years has probably rigged an extra length and it has worn,warped,bent or whatever. A theory that fuel pump was getting to hot from being to close to engine block? led to this? Man,they even notched into the firewall to clear for the breather cap.

Re: Problems Fuel pump in high temperature.
 

I don't believe in vapor lock ,but maybe I have something to learn ,if your engine runs above the Boiling point of water 212 F, then yes , I am with Walt ,or GM .Coil /ignition ,or Faulty pump .Ford tested these cars every new model in the dessert ??.

Re: Problems Fuel pump in high temperature.
 

Dear Forumer!

I tell you that my mechanical Fuel Pump was installed this year in winter, so I have never had troubles, but read this sequence.

1) When I bought my car 15 years ago the Fuel Pump was near the block, I think as original from Factory.

2)The previous owner (Death today) warned me that the car always had this problem in summers.

3) So in my first year as owner in summer I really proved what he told me. My car left me in middle of the road, so all the traffic behind me remembered my family, I can not forget it.

4)When I convert my car 6V to 12V, the electrician advise me to install an electrical fuel pump. So, during 14 years no problems.

5)Nowadays thanks to internet I discover which parts are original and which are not.

6)This year I install the fuel pump again , but with that modification that you see in the picture attached above. Electrical fuel pump is sleeping below my car and laughing of me.

7)Bingo, the fuel pump failed again in this Summer.

In this case, you have desert there in your country, In summer, in my country the heat raise at 40ºC or 104ºF.

Please, I read over there about coil heat. What must I do to test the coil heat?

Thanks all for your post.

Harylufa.

Re: Problems Fuel pump in high temperature.
 

Harylufa, To "test the coil heat", the next time your engine fails, pull a plug wire and hold it to a head stud to test spark while you crank it over. A good coil will deliver a strong blue spark about 1/2" long. A weak coil will show a smaller orange spark or none at all. This same weak coil may show strong when it is cool again.

Generally, a fuel pump diaphram should not stretch when it gets warm, as they are made of reinforced material. An older diaphram may be subject to permanent damage by fuel containing alcohol. Newer diaphrams are made of fuel resistant material.

Your modified pushrod may be of an incorrect length. Check the pump's rocker pivot for damage that may indicate a rod that is too long. A rod that is too short will not depress the rocker sufficiently to actuate the pump. Remove the fuel delivery tube from the carburetor and direct it to a glass jar while you crank the engine with ignition off. You should get a strong pulsing flow from the pump to the jar.

As was said earlier, both a fuel related problem and an ignition related problem will produce identical symptoms, but it is important to address one problem at a time so you will not inadvertantly create a problem where none exists. Don't jump in and do several things, as you will not know which was succesful and which was not.

Re: Problems Fuel pump in high temperature.
 

ford38v8!

I forgot to mention something concerning what happen with the fuel filter, I attach a picture where you can see a the fuel filter FULL of gasoline (nafta)
This happen a day after using my car in the road, so when I am in the road the fuel filter is almost empty, I think it is normal, but it fill with gasoline when the engine is cool.

In one of the picture you can see near the bolts a liquid color green, did not exit before.

Thanks

Harylufa.

Re: Problems Fuel pump in high temperature.
 

If you get a spark from that test then you know you have spark and that the coil, condenser, points, and wires all work. If you don't get a spark, however, that can be because any one of those things has failed and you will only know be testing each one individually as follows:

To truly test the coil to see if it is the problem it must be isolated from all other components that make it fire. To do that, I always carry a spare high tension coil to distributor wire (the one that looks like a short spark plug wire). Then I unplug the fat wire from the bottom or end of the coil and plug the test one in. Then, crank the engine while holding the end of that test wire close to a head bolt. If it fires then when it didn't through the spark plug wire then you know that the spark is stopping somewhere between the coil and the spark plug and isn't a problem with the coil. It could be the short fat wire from the coil to the distributor, the distributor rotor, the distributor cap, or, most likely, the spark plug wire. If the coil still won't fire I then isolate the coil from any problems with the points or condenser by disconnecting the small wire from the top of the coil that goes to the distributor. I then connect a jumper wire from ground that I'll use for this test. Then, with the end of the short fat test wire near a head bolt and the ignition turned on I intermittently tap the small grounded jumper wire on the terminal that I took the other wire off of. That creates the same on/off switching that the points do. If I now get a spark I know it's the points and/or condenser. If I still don't get a spark (and I'm sure power is getting to the coil from the ignition switch) that only leaves the coil as the problem.

I tell you all of this because in the past I too many times jumped to the erroneous conclusion that my ignition problem was a coil problem and replaced the coil without fixing the problem that has always turned out to be something else.

Hope this helps.

Re: Problems Fuel pump in high temperature.
 

Henry, good thinking. More difficult to do with an earlier distributor mounted coil. Any thoughts on your test with that application?

Re: Problems Fuel pump in high temperature.
 

Sorry. Not familiar with that set up. I was telling Hary about my car 'cause it's the same as his.

Re: Problems Fuel pump in high temperature.
 

I have seen the rubber hose between the pump and the solid line have a soft spot ( caused by engine movement).The hose when hot would suck together. My 2cents lee34

Re: Problems Fuel pump in high temperature.
 

Lee the soft spots in the flex hose is caused by this new fuel. If you get soft spots you more than likely are sucking air into the fuel. This could be Hary's problem also since his filter get low on fuel, vapor lock will also leave the fuel bowl low. I asked what kind of fuel they have down there?? [email protected] makes fuel hoses that are not effected by this new fuel. G.M.

Re: Problems Fuel pump in high temperature.
 

Those AC type diaphragm fuel pumps on almost any vehicle-except old fords,are mounted low on the engine because they are better at pushing the fuel rather than sucking it from the tank.Where Henry placed the pump wasnt one of his better ideas. I think that having the pump mounted so high is only making the problem worse.Even with the standard fuel pump stand,there is very poor oiling for the FP linkage& with the axtra tall stand,I would think oiling is almost non existent.The push rod is very likely worn too short.I think its a good idea to have an electric pump-the type that can push the fuel thru the stock pump & use the electric to prime the carb when sitting for a long time & also for when vapour-lock occurs.Years ago I never had vaper-lock even when it was 105* F. Nowadays I even get vapor-lock with my model A,s if I stop for 15 min on a hot day to gas up.For the 1st block or so it will run crappy untit the cooler gas replaces the heat-soaked gas in the carb.

Re: Problems Fuel pump in high temperature.
 

So all in all its thefuel companys fault!:mad:

Re: Problems Fuel pump in high temperature.
 

No, it's our dear old Uncle Sam.

Re: Problems Fuel pump in high temperature.
 

My Late father-in-law was a soldier in North Africa during WW2. They had to come up with all kinds of tricks to overcome vapour lock in the V8 trucks in the desert. The problem has been around since way back when!!!

Re: Problems Fuel pump in high temperature.
 

Unless I mis-read this, I don't think it is caused by United States fuel. Isn't Harylufa in Argentina? On the other hand, maybe they have more ethanol in their gas than we do... KGS

Re: Problems Fuel pump in high temperature.
 

The Model A was a reliable machine were the v8 has a reputation of not being ,The A had gravity feed ,take a 34 Chev the pump is low on the block with a 1/2 full tank you will likely get fuel flow down to the pump .The pump is one of the things that needs to be right and you shouldn't need a electric pump ,if fitting one solves Vapor lock then its got to be the fault of the Mechanical pump thats causing the vapor lock. ,We rebuilt a pump and I showed the owner how good it pumped with a clear tube on the input side ,With my palm on the rod cup ,and two strokes on the pump arm it dragged the gas up 3 feet .so 6 strokes should drag it from the tank ,the gas sits in the loop of the fuel line between tank and pump .One we rebuilt sat for 2 weeks then started with just a few winds on the starter , GM said the flexible line on the input side of the pump can give trouble because of the Gas now .I have had trouble with these for years specially new old stock even on the old gas ..You are better to make up a new one using high grade gas resistant rubber tube ,There are proper processes to rebuild a pump given by AC. I don't think the fact that the pumps sitting high on our ford s can be a problem if its set up properly .ILL try and post more on setting them up it later

Re: Problems Fuel pump in high temperature.
 

Hi!

I have two picture, which one is original fuel pump for my car?

I have been investigating and It is confuse because both of them "go" to my car.
Now I have 59A-9350 without bowl, perhaps It came originally with my car???

Here we use "Nafta" no ethanol.

Thanks

Harylufa

Re: Problems Fuel pump in high temperature.
 

Part number 59A-9350 is the part number for the pump on the right that is listed in the parts book for years 47-48 (and what I have on my '47). The other pump is part number 11A-9350 which is for a V8 engine with aluminum valve chamber covers through the '46 model year. This is all according to the Ford parts book. So, the pump on the left most likely came on your car.

Re: Problems Fuel pump in high temperature.
 

Thank you very much Old Henry!

Here in my country I can get the 59A-9350. The other one I do not.

Harylufa

Re: Problems Fuel pump in high temperature.
 

The pump you have on your car is neither of the ones in your pictures. I don't know what it is. Either of the ones in your pictures will work on you car. The one on the left is the one that came on your car. If you want a new one of those it is here: http://macsautoparts.com/early-v8-fu...0R3CHL1073530/ If not and you can get the one on the right, the 59A-9350 will work just as well and has the settling bowl on it that eliminates the need for a fuel filter that can plug up and stop the flow of fuel.

Here is the 59A-9350 that was stock for my '47 installed as from the factory.

http://static.panoramio.com/photos/o...l/64835026.jpg

Re: Problems Fuel pump in high temperature.
 

Dear Old Henry!

Thank for this picture! I must immediately correct the circuit to the pump. I see in many cars also in yours a connection of cooper pipe between carb and pump. I do not remember which cooper pipe size is. Is this system better than rubber hose to avoid hose dilate in high temperature?

Harylufa.

Re: Problems Fuel pump in high temperature.
 

I don't think copper is used because the fuel flows through it any better. You can get plenty of fuel through a rubber hose. But, the copper is more durable meaning that it lasts much longer and is safer because it's less likely to spring a leak and cause a fire.

The copper tubing is 1/4 inch outside diameter copper tubing connected with ferrules and fittings to the pump and carburetor as pictured here: http://macsautoparts.com/early-v8-fu...0R3CHL1140503/

Tubing already bent to fit perfectly between the stock fuel pump and the Holley 94/Ford 59 carburetor which you have is available here: http://macsautoparts.com/early-v8-fu...0R3CHL1140683/

Re: Problems Fuel pump in high temperature.
 

Thank you very much!!!

Harylufa.

Re: Problems Fuel pump in high temperature.
 

Any liquid on the fuel pump, especially fuel colored (green) liquid is most likely fuel leaking out of the fuel pump. I've had that happen and all I had to do was tighten down the screws on the pump and it quit leaking. Check all of those screws to make sure they are tight or tighten them down and check again for leaks. You may not need to replace the fuel pump. But, then, again, you might.

Re: Problems Fuel pump in high temperature.
 

Hary, It sounds like you are thinking something is wrong with your fuel pump and that you need to replace it, especially because it is not a stock pump for your car. If you want to replace it with something more authentic, fine. But if you are considering replacing it because you think it's not working right you might as well check it before you do that. It may be working just fine.

Two tests for your fuel pump:

1. Check for gas flow. To do this you disconnect the fuel line from the carburetor and hold it over a container while you crank the engine without the ignition turned on. You should see spurts of gas coming out of the end of the line. If so, you've got flow.

2. Check the pressure. Now connect that loose end of the fuel line to a pressure gauge. I use the same one shown by Flathead Ted in #23. It is a combination vacuum and pressure gauge. Once the gauge is connected to the end of the fuel line crank the engine and watch the pressure. The pressure should be between 1.5 and 3.5 lbs. If it is, and you had flow, your fuel pump is working fine and doesn't need replaced.:)

Re: Problems Fuel pump in high temperature.
 

That does not seem normal. In fact, it seems backwards. When the engine is running the fuel filter should be full of fuel. When the engine stops it would be expected that the fuel might drain out of the filter back down the gas line. The way yours is, I suspect that you may have something plugging up the fuel line from the gas tank restricting the flow of gas when the engine is running. Then, when the engine stops, the gas flows out of the pump to the filter and fills it up.

If you don't get gas flowing out of the end of the fuel line that you disconnected from the carburetor in the flow test I just described, that does not necessarily mean that the fuel pump is defective, especially if the pump creates sufficient pressure. A problem with flow in that test is more likely something pluging the fuel line. That could be a plugged fuel filter or, as was my chronic problem until I replaced my gas tank, crud in the gas tank is plugging up the fuel line where the gas leaves the tank. All of that should be checked before concluding that your pump is bad.

Re: Problems Fuel pump in high temperature.
 

Most alum. intake manifolds were phased out by 38 or so and were mostly cast iron by then. I have never seen an alum one on a car after 40-41. OME.Most of the NEW pumps are comming in from China,you dont want one of them. The all steel on the left is the correct pump.Your better off buying a rebuilt original. The steel copper coated line is correct one and pre-bent.Only my opinion Harylufa. ken ct usa.I suspect you may have a bad valve in the FP.causing your not normal gas in the glass bowl.

Re: Problems Fuel pump in high temperature.
 

Its advisable to Hary to drop your pump down to stoke hight like Old Henry

Re: Problems Fuel pump in high temperature.
 

Here is mine on my 34 4 door Like Harys one, its more suitable for early cars ,.Like Columbus I use the primer leaver to pump up the gas after its been sitting , the reason is these pumps do not have replaceable valve seats ,so its a faulty pump , you get fuel drain back .To have this or use a electric pump I don't think this is what Henry Ford had in mind .The one 59A Hary is looking at you can change the valves so its a better desgn ,

Re: Problems Fuel pump in high temperature.
 

Dear Friends!!!

First of all, thank you very much for such interested posting, is helping me a lot, It is a pleasure reading. I think am learning how to face any problem.

Today a long day, I have been discovering some hidden problem I attach some picture.
1-My radiator was totally cleaned It was almost blocked. I have electric fan.
2-I have a little filter bowl that was full of oxide trash.
3-I changed the circuit, now hoses are straighter (with less curves, less resistant).

I need to know if this can change something, before changing the pump. Remember that I begun a post talking about temperature in my car, now with cleaned radiator, I hope be done.

I must check coil just to know if it works fine. I read Old Henry post how to do it.

DEALING A PROBLEM AT A TIME!!!

I will came back with news once I had driven my car for a while.

Harylufa

Re: Problems Fuel pump in high temperature.
 

Hary, no wonder you were having trouble with all that muck in your filter, it's lucky you could even start it. Just goes to show how good your fuel pump is !!! You may want to drain your fuel tank, remove the plug at the bottom and flush it with kerosene till no muck runs out and then let it drain properly.. OMO. Either that or replace the filter more often.

Re: Problems Fuel pump in high temperature.
 

Here's how my fuel filters looked every few weeks until I finally bought a new gas tank. I carried extras and was changing them all the time on the side of the road when the engine would quit. Like danliveshere said, you might be able to clean it out but mine was too far gone. It had pinhole rust-throughs all over the top such that I couldn't fill it with gas or it would leak. Ought to check that out.

http://static.panoramio.com/photos/medium/64882082.jpg

Re: Problems Fuel pump in high temperature.
 

Old Henry and Dansliveshere!

I have a problem with the tank plug is blocked totally I could not unscrew it. This year I sent it to clean it but they did not unscrew the plug they "forgotten"

I need to see how It will work now first.

Thank you.

Harylufa